Elaida (Full Spoilers)

[ed2funy]

Isn't that when she has her foretelling about rand knowing the Amrylin's anger...

 

She is talking about the Salidar AS right before she has her Fortelling...

 

Alviarin thinks it is part of the Fortelling....

 

it is not...

[TheWheelTurns]

Was it Egwene or was it the rebels in general that asked for forgiveness and was it the Amyrlin that was asked for forgiveness and Elaida assumed it was her or was it Elaida specifically? Given what we know of Elaida, she properly interpreted that wrong.

See thats wat i think. its pretty obvious the woman was too power hungry and obsessive to pay any great attention to detail. she assumed too much. she should have known after how easily she got rid of suian it was very possible for her to be rid of in the near future too. but she didnt. so now shes a damane and shes gonna probly spread her knowledge of traveling all over the seanchan.that part is sad...

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

On the topic of Aes sedai deserving or not deserving leashes, I think the black ajah deserve leashes.  Giving the dark one back his servants is not the answer.  What if the trollocs that attacked tylee's army were the resurrected souls of darkfriends that had just died at the battle at malden.

 

Well no they aren't.  Trollocs are biological creatures, albeit unnatural ones, who must be conceived, gestate, be born and grow up.  They do not spontaniously come into existence from the departed souls of wicked men.  That's just not how it works

[Diederichos]

I think RJ stated that Trollocs had souls as well, as did other Shadowspan./

[Mr. Insane]

On the topic of Aes sedai deserving or not deserving leashes, I think the black ajah deserve leashes.  Giving the dark one back his servants is not the answer.  What if the trollocs that attacked tylee's army were the resurrected souls of darkfriends that had just died at the battle at malden.

 

Well no they aren't.  Trollocs are biological creatures, albeit unnatural ones, who must be conceived, gestate, be born and grow up.  They do not spontaniously come into existence from the departed souls of wicked men.  That's just not how it works

 

I was thinking more along the lines of reanimation than conjuring them out of thin air.  Trollocs seem to be cobbled together corpses to me.  If they are one species, why do some have beaks and some have snouts and tusks?  This is not the debate I was trying to fuel with that post however.  I'll admit thats a weak point.  Let me try that again.

 

  Giving the dark one back his servants is not the answer.  What happened when Rand killed Ishammael? Did the dark one not just give him another body? Is it not reasonable to consider the possibility of the dark one giving Sheriam and Moria new bodies?

[funsize]

I was thinking more along the lines of reanimation than conjuring them out of thin air.  Trollocs seem to be cobbled together corpses to me.  If they are one species, why do some have beaks and some have snouts and tusks?  This is not the debate I was trying to fuel with that post however.  I'll admit thats a weak point.  Let me try that again.

 

For the same reason that there are black people and white people.

[Mr. Insane]

  The more I think about it, the more inevitable it seems to me that Eladia will return to power, at least for a day or two.  I'll admit maybe I should not have mentioned the foretelling thing but let me add a few points to the points I made earlier. 

 

  RJ seemed to like grouping things in 3's.  With Egewene having been elected by the Hall twice now, and both those elections being arguably illegal, it seems likely to me that she will be elected a third time, this time by a full hall of 21 sitters.

 

  Egewene admitted that she would have trouble convincing the red ajah "they will see ill will where there is none".  How do you think Pevara will take it when Egewene tries to tell her that they can only bind 47 ashaman?  Did Pevara not get a better deal from the madman Taim?  Perhaps the only division left in the tower will be between the amrylin and the red ajah.  Did egewene not admit to Ferana that she would step down if she thought it would heal the tower?

 

  Just from a story sense it fits together better if Egewene takes the test for the shawl and joins the green ajah.  I dont want to see her take the test and have to turn her back on the ceremony by not choosing an ajah.

 

  I'll admit my theory is guesses piled on guesses, maybe Eladia will never get rescued or escape, but.. I think it fits.

[Dakota]

Remember, that the final book will be solely about the last battle.  So if this sort of storyline does happen, it has to start and conclude in the span of one book, on top of everything else that's slated to happen in ToM.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

To me, Elaida's future (as far as we'll see it) comes down to this: do the Seanchan know who she is?

 

If they don’t, then she could well just disappear into the night, never to reappear. She’ll just be a faceless damane.

 

If they do or she makes enough noise and they believe her… well, I can’t see the Empress passing up an opportunity to see her. Though, I don’t know if that’d be on screen or not.

 

Personally, I’d like to see a little redemption for Elaida. I’d like to see her being used in battle and somehow defying the sul’dam. Either that or standing up to the Empress despite being beaten down.

 

I know there are a thousand and one reasons why that can’t / shouldn’t happen, but still. It’s what I’d like to see.

 

I think the scene between her and the Empress is enitirely possible.

[dmanmiller34]

The odds of the Seanchan Getting a AS that could travel (besides Elidia) are Fairly low I think. Not many sisters could do it even if they knew the weave based off of strenghth. Who knows Maybe we will get lucky and some of the AS will throw them selves off of they're raken and choose to die rather than be a slave. 

on antoher thought maybe Egwene will Travel/skim and intercept the raid as it returns home. They will not be able to make all the way in one day or even 2. it is possible for a rescue attempt. I think that only maybe 2 or 3 days at most passes after the attack and the end of the book so maybe they could still catch them.

Another thought is maybe that Elida will see traveling as a weapon for the seanchan to use and will not be able to weave it for them. it would be agaist the 3 oaths. then she could at least prevent an all out assult on the tower and remain a slave at the same time. broken or not.

[mossman87]

I think RJ stated that Trollocs had souls as well, as did other Shadowspan./

 

Trollocs do have souls, and they're quite nasty.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I was thinking more along the lines of reanimation than conjuring them out of thin air.  Trollocs seem to be cobbled together corpses to me.  If they are one species, why do some have beaks and some have snouts and tusks?  This is not the debate I was trying to fuel with that post however.  I'll admit thats a weak point.  Let me try that again.

 

Trollocs are not made from the remains of corpses, but rather their mix of human and animal features come from the genetic splicing of human and animal stock.  They were created through the genetic experiments of Aginor in the AOL and since have been able to sustain their population via sexual reproduction.   They are divided into 13 tribes but whether they are one or multiple species has not been revealed.

 

Giving the dark one back his servants is not the answer.  What happened when Rand killed Ishammael? Did the dark one not just give him another body? Is it not reasonable to consider the possibility of the dark one giving Sheriam and Moria new bodies?

 

There has been no evidence that any non-Chosen darkfriends have been reincarnated but it certainly is a possibility.   However, the DO reincarnates the Chosen because they are very powerful tools the like of which are hard to come by in the 3rd age.   On the other hand, Sheriam and Moira are no more powerful than the average 3rd age channeler and the DO has plenty of Black Ajah in his service.   Thus, he might not consider Sheriam and Moria worth the effort especially since in being exposed and killed they have failed him.

 

Considering that Aginor/Osan'gar is the only forsaken to have been killed twice and neither time by balefire it would make for a rather ironic twist if the DO decided to reincarnate him as a trolloc. ;)

[Valisbourne]

So...everybody here that 'hates the arrogance of the Aes Sedai' and Tuon realize that they get to be flawed and interesting characters that don't fit into our own REAL WORLD idea of morality, right?

 

Can't you just appreciate that they are well-written characters and serve a purpose in the story without distilling them down into "I wish they were this" or "I wish they were that?"

 

Just rolling my eyes a little at how much everybody wants this story to conform to their own ideas.

 

I have absolutely NO desire for this story to 'conform' to my ideas or ideals.  There is nothing wrong with wishful thinking, though!

 

However, I honestly DO find the AS 'arrogance' to be rooted in something every bit as bad as the Seanchan damane (slavery).  That's bullying...  or "might makes right".  Which explains why the average AS makes me wish I could throttle her for a few minutes.

 

Away from that, for now..

 

Elaida is through, imo.  Even if she were rescued, can anyone honestly see Eqwene stepping down for her knowing she'd just try to destroy the tower again?  I don't even see Elaida speaking with the Empress (SPEAK to a damane??!?  that would lower her eyes forever!).

 

I am wondering just how many of the 'lost' weaves Elaida has, besides of travelling.  There's no way she'll be overlooked by the seanchan for her knowledge, as that was one of (if not THE) reasons they went on the raid.

[lsm]

I am wondering just how many of the 'lost' weaves Elaida has, besides of travelling.  There's no way she'll be overlooked by the seanchan for her knowledge, as that was one of (if not THE) reasons they went on the raid.

 

when the white tower's mole in salidar returned to elaida, elaida did tell her to show her 'everything'. safe to assume she knows all of it, from keeping to skimming

[Mr Hindley]

Personally, I’d like to see a little redemption for Elaida. I’d like to see her being used in battle and somehow defying the sul’dam. Either that or standing up to the Empress despite being beaten down.

 

I totally agree with this. For all Elaida's many personal failings, fundamentally she was at least trying to do the right thing for the Light. Misguided, yes, very, but she did, for example, dedicate decades of her life to House Trakand because she believed doing so could help the Light's cause. Bear in mind also the malign influences of both Fain and Alviarin - once Alviarin lost her hold, Elaida did set out trying to right some wrongs e.g. the failing wards in the Tower.

 

Given there are so many genuinely nasty pieces of work out there, it would be gratifying for Elaida to at least have the chance to make up for her mistakes. Even if just in battle against Shadowspawn if the Seanchan end up on the right side of Tarmon Gaidon, which presumably they will.

 

As for Travelling, it seems to me the main purpose of having Beonin turn out to be a mole was so that she could give that weave to Elaida. As Elaida hoarded that knowledge, her having it has had surprisingly little impact on the plot - unless she hands it over to the Seanchan. If she doesn't, the whole Beonin-betrayal plotline seems a bit of a dead-end.

[Emily_Sedai]

 

Curiously, has anyone considered the differences of training a Damane that knows Travelling vs. one who does not?  What are the possible implications? 

 

We know from Egwene's experiences that she was constantly fighting for a way to 'beat the least.'  We have the example of her thinking of bashing the SD's head with a pitcher of water, and her musings to Min about how Damane aren't permitted to have knives or be in a place where they could possibly kill themselves (which is interesting to me...  I always feel that the Damane later in the series seem more content than the initial description of them in TGH.) 

 

So, what are the implications of you being a newly caught Damane, but you have the knowledge of Travelling.  Might Elaida when asked one day to open up a gateway, open up one to Tar Valon perhaps?  Or the middle of the waste saying 'take this thing off my neck or we both die right here?' 

 

Mmm, I can see it now...  the Hall is meeting in the White Tower when suddenly out of nowhere, a gateway appears in the middle of the session.  Out pops Elaida who glances arrogantly at the Sitters, and proclaims 'I am the Amyrlin Seat, remove this collar from my neck and beat this dog at the end of leash into a bloody pulp right NOW, or I'll set you all penances that will make you all weep until the end of your days!'  Now, that's an Elaida entrance. 

 

So, what are the thoughts from the community?  Will the knowledge of Travelling be another mattock digging at the roots of the Seanchan Empire? 

 

(ps, I know this theory won't help the 'have no self-esteem' Damane the Seanchan have already beaten into the ground, lol) 

 

Cheers,

 

-Emily

 

ps - for those discounting this theory saying the SD would never allow the scenario to happen, picture being in the middle of a battle similiar to the battle for Illian, with you popping in and out of areas, striking with the power, and running away.  Hehehe

[velinion]

 

Curiously, has anyone considered the differences of training a Damane that knows Travelling vs. one who does not?  What are the possible implications? 

 

 

One thing I've always wondered about this, is what if the Damane opened a Gateway, and after either she or the Sul'dam stepped through, released the weave.

I know the things are near impossible to destroy, but I doubt they could hold the gateway open.

 

Admittedly, we know that an adam can be created without the physical link between collar and chain, but since the Seanchan ones are made with that attachment, I think it would badly damage the adam. Of corse, damaged ter'angeal are dangerous in their own right, but it's a possible escape route for a Damane.

[csarmi]

The odds of the Seanchan Getting a AS that could travel (besides Elidia) are Fairly low I think.

 

Well, according to BS the Seanchan consider this raid a success and they are concerned about not getting the secret weapon. I'm not sure, but I think that means they did get traveling.

[Valisbourne]

 

Curiously, has anyone considered the differences of training a Damane that knows Travelling vs. one who does not?  What are the possible implications? 

 

 

Curious.  I started thinking about this combination after you mentioned it and began to wonder if a Damane could even step through a gateway...  remember the distance limitation on the adam.  Even linked (ie. worn), unless the sul'dam had a really good idea how far away they were going to travel, would traveling make the damane deathly ill just walking through a gateway? (I can't recall off hand if Semirhage had damane brought with her via traveling or not)

 

Seeing as how the Adam workds c/o nausia (as opposed to the Domination Bands total control), it is definetly possible to resist for short periods of time.

 

 

Regarding Elaida's "redemption".  I'd like to think everyone is redeemable, but come on!  Did she honestly do everything she did for the 'good of the tower' or was it for her own personal glory?  This is a question I truthfully don't know.  I do know that after she became Amrylin, I couldn't stand her at all, whereas before she was at least somewhat tolerable.

[Mr. Insane]

    It would make an interesting story, Eladia showing up in the middle of a session of the hall, but I think Moghedien's time under the a'dam shows that to be close to impossible.  The Damane end of the collar does not possess enough control.

 

  While it would be interesting to see an a'dam cut in half by a gateway closing, the damane is not the one who decides whether or not to release the weave?

 

  Falendre described the traveling from the tarasin palace to the meeting point with Rand as stepping through a "hole in the air". It was most likely a gateway of semirhage's and semirhage was most likely hiding her channeling and reversing her weaves.

[ed2funy]

Semi did...

 

Also, the damane is still physically linked with the adam...it is not as if she took it off and tried to move alone.

If she had it on, she could not even summon enough of the Power to open a gateway, she would be doubled up and puking.

[Emily_Sedai]

Semi did...

 

Also, the damane is still physically linked with the adam...it is not as if she took it off and tried to move alone.

If she had it on, she could not even summon enough of the Power to open a gateway, she would be doubled up and puking.

 

At some point though, the SD would have the various Damane opening gateways to be used in various tasks...  We know from Egween's experiences that Damane have some freedom of movement, especially when she punches her SD when first getting leashed.   

 

In terms of splitting the leash, it wouldn't matter...  Moggy's A'dam didn't need the physical link to be effective.

 

Btw, as a clarification, I never actually expected Elaida to appear in the middle of a meeting of the hall...  that was kind of a joke *laugh*  I just meant it to highlight my point that the ability to Travel would allow freshly caught Damane to hold out in the hopes of escape one day, which would make a tremendous impact on the training of Damane...  Egween didn't give in until she realized that her situation was totally and utterly futile. 

 

Cheers,

 

-Emily 

[ed2funy]

THey didn't need the physical link because Elayne made it like that.

 

The a'dam as the Seanchan know it uses that leash. Once it is broken, the a'dam will most likely be rendered ineffective.

 

P.S. Your joke was funny.

[Kalyahna]

The odds of the Seanchan Getting a AS that could travel (besides Elidia) are Fairly low I think. Not many sisters could do it even if they knew the weave based off of strenghth. Who knows Maybe we will get lucky and some of the AS will throw them selves off of they're raken and choose to die rather than be a slave. 

Another thought is maybe that Elida will see traveling as a weapon for the seanchan to use and will not be able to weave it for them. it would be agaist the 3 oaths. then she could at least prevent an all out assult on the tower and remain a slave at the same time. broken or not.

 

I agree. Elaida seemed to horde the knowledge she had, and as she didn't trust anyone, I don't see her having handed out anything she would have seen as an ace up her sleeve. Added into Egwene managing to explode a number of the morat'raken as well, the Seanchan will have still gotten a lot of new damane, but the likelihood of any of those knowing Traveling or any other rare weave is relatively low. The "weapon" the seanchan keep talking about was Elayne's exploding unraveling of her gateway. Traveling would be a bonus, but Tuon seems to think that if one AS knows a weave, they all do.

 

Having said that, I do think Elaida will break in record time.

[randfandom]

when the white tower's mole in salidar returned to elaida, elaida did tell her to show her 'everything'. safe to assume she knows all of it, from keeping to skimming

 

I don't have the text, but I seem to remember that Beonin did not know all the new weaves. In particular, she did not know how to make cuendillar, but knew all the new Healing weaves and both forms of Traveling.

 

Since the whole plot point of Beonin's betrayal appears to be as the means to pass knowledge of Traveling to the Seanchan, I wonder why RJ specifically excluded the making of Cuendillar - perhaps to prevent them from making more make a'dam? (those are made of cuendillar).

On that note, if the Seanchan don't know how to make cuendillar, how *did* they make copies of the Domination Band?