The Metaphysics of the Wheel

[Sentinel78]

The Creator said "IT IS NOT HERE" and "NOT HERE", implying either that the DO wasn't here to fight (an early indication that you had to break the seals first), or that something Rand needed for the Last Battle wasn't in his possession yet to achieve victory. 

[ed2funy]

To jemron:

 

I think he watches but doesn't interfere, or at least, not very  much.

 

I thought The Wheel consisted of the whole universe, but we still get reborn on our own planet.

[Palin]

I have a question.

 

Is the Creator / Dark One relationship specific to only the planet that Randland is on, or do they share this relationship throughout the entire universe? If so, does that mean that the Creator is in one dimension and the DO is in another dimension and an infinitesimally large "pattern" or layer stretching in all directions that separates the two?

 

Would any other planets have to deal with the Dark One, or is it just Rand's planet that has the unfortunate coincidence/responsibility of being in the one place in the entire universe where the Dark One has some power over the pattern.

 

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

We know that the bore originated on "earth". While we also know the DO's prison exists everywhere at once.. Wasn't it said in the PoV of a Forsaken (Demandred I believe) that the DO's power seemed to manifest/be strongest at Shayol Ghul. If that's the case it implies the DO's reach is limited from that location and his ability to impact other planets is diminished as well.

 

Therefore, we know the wheel spins out the heroes to create balance in the pattern. If the DO is only creating the imbalance on our planet the wheel will only spin out the heroes on our planet.

[mossman87]

I have a question.

 

Is the Creator / Dark One relationship specific to only the planet that Randland is on, or do they share this relationship throughout the entire universe? If so, does that mean that the Creator is in one dimension and the DO is in another dimension and an infinitesimally large "pattern" or layer stretching in all directions that separates the two?

 

Would any other planets have to deal with the Dark One, or is it just Rand's planet that has the unfortunate coincidence/responsibility of being in the one place in the entire universe where the Dark One has some power over the pattern.

 

Can Heroes be spit out on other planets? :P

 

We know that the bore originated on "earth". While we also know the DO's prison exists everywhere at once.. Wasn't it said in the PoV of a Forsaken (Demandred I believe) that the DO's power seemed to manifest/be strongest at Shayol Ghul. If that's the case it implies the DO's reach is limited from that location and his ability to impact other planets is diminished as well.

 

Therefore, we know the wheel spins out the heroes to create balance in the pattern. If the DO is only creating the imbalance on our planet the wheel will only spin out the heroes on our planet.

 

You're correct, the DO's prison is everywhere.  There's a thinness in the Pattern at the place where Shayol Ghul is now, we have no idea why it's thin there, but I'm betting on whoever sealed him up in a previous Age.

 

But what we can get from that is that it's the Pattern that is blocking the DO from touching this existence.  You can connect the dots from there.

[Vermillion]

Also, was LT the a Dragon Reborn or just the Dragon and will there be/have there been Dragons/Dragon Reborns outside Rand's and LT's ages?  Is he required outside of the ages where the DO is not semi-freed? 

 

Also is LT/Rand always called the Dragon/Dragon Reborn?  Will he be the Raven/Raven Reborn in the next round bout or previous one?

 

Are there always last battles in every age?  Do they involve the DO?

[Palin]

Also, was LT the a Dragon Reborn or just the Dragon and will there be/have there been Dragons/Dragon Reborns outside Rand's and LT's ages?   Is he required outside of the ages where the DO is not semi-freed? 

 

Also is LT/Rand always called the Dragon/Dragon Reborn?  Will he be the Raven/Raven Reborn in the next round bout or previous one?

 

Are there always last battles in every age?  Do they involve the DO?

 

Those are interesting questions from a metaphysical standpoint. Let me just say - we really can never know for sure (on some things), only speculate.

 

LTT was the "Dragon" reborn. That is, he was the thread we know as "The Dragon" rewoven into the pattern. I don't recall ever reading that he was a prophetic rebirth of another person.. but we know for a fact that he was. This is proven once by RJ who says that "The Dragon" is a hero bound to the Wheel. And furthered by Moridin who says to Rand that they've known each other by many faces, many times, etc..

 

To finish the answer: "The Dragon" is spun out whenever the Wheel needs him. He will not always be, "The Dragon", just a force used by the Wheel to fix imbalances.

 

The rest.. I don't know.

 

Does anyone know where the name, "The Dragon" came from for LTT? I can't recall it being said but I never read the short-story about the Companions.It would be interesting if that was a constant that seemed to always come up everytime these Ages came about. The Heroes in Book 2 only follow the "Dragon Banner", but are they going off of LTT's banner, or is there another meaning there?

 

 

[Luckers]

LTT was the "Dragon" reborn. That is, he was the thread we know as "The Dragon" rewoven into the pattern. I don't recall ever reading that he was a prophetic rebirth of another person.. but we know for a fact that he was. This is proven once by RJ who says that "The Dragon" is a hero bound to the Wheel. And furthered by Moridin who says to Rand that they've known each other by many faces, many times, etc..

 

That's not actually true. 'The Dragon' was a title given by the people of the Third Age to Lews Therin Telamon for his role as leader of the Light in the fight against the Shadow specifically. We know this from the fact that Graendal says Demandred may well have been the Dragon himself--alluding to the fact that Demandred would have been named First Amongst Servants himself.

 

Though we now apply the title 'Dragon' to the soul that is spun out to champion the Light's cause, it is not so. That was a title specific to Lews Therin, which is why Rand is the Dragon 'Reborn'. He is Lews Therin reborn according to prophecy. He could as easily have been named 'the Kinslayer Reborn', though its less flattering.

 

Furthermore Lews Therin was not a 'prophetic rebirth'. He was a rebirth, as are all births in the Turning of the Wheel. According to Graendal Rand is the first known occurence of a specific soul being reborn according to prophecy.

 

The Heroes in Book 2 only follow the "Dragon Banner", but are they going off of LTT's banner, or is there another meaning there?

 

That's a common mistake. The Heroes are not required to follow the Dragon Banner by design of the function of the Horn. That only commands they follow the commands of the one who sounded the Horn. What Artur Hawkwing spoke of when he talked of 'something holding' him, and following the banner, was the weave of the moment. The Wheel was pushing for that event to happen--fuzzily, generally pushing, but pushing nonetheless. That influence, added to the loose reality created by the sounding of the Horn, and the effects of Rand, Mat and Perrin's ta'maral'aileen is what 'held' Hawkwing. Just like it threw images up of Rand, and threw down the false Dragons.

 

But no, it is not a common function of the Horn.

[Vermillion]

I wonder if LT knew he was a rebirth or had a destined role to serve during his age?

[Vulgir]

Yeah who was the Dragon beofer LTT, but then again, LThe Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legends fade to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

[Luckers]

I wonder if LT knew he was a rebirth or had a destined role to serve during his age?

 

He knew he was a rebirth in the same sense that all characters are rebirths, but he did not know he had a destined role, or that he was the rebirth of the Lights Champion. As far as he knew he was simply a political leader who was ta'veren.

 

 

[Palin]

LTT was the "Dragon" reborn. That is, he was the thread we know as "The Dragon" rewoven into the pattern. I don't recall ever reading that he was a prophetic rebirth of another person.. but we know for a fact that he was. This is proven once by RJ who says that "The Dragon" is a hero bound to the Wheel. And furthered by Moridin who says to Rand that they've known each other by many faces, many times, etc..

 

That's not actually true. 'The Dragon' was a title given by the people of the Third Age to Lews Therin Telamon for his role as leader of the Light in the fight against the Shadow specifically.

 

Sorry for the delayed response, but - What isn't true? I said that LTT was the rebirth of the thread WE know as 'The Dragon'. This doesn't imply that the thread itself is known as that - but that we know the thread as that. I could have easily said that he is the rebirth of the thread we know as Rand.

 

Unless Moridin is wrong, or Rand is seeing more than just his past experiences, this thread HAS encountered the pivotal battle against the DO many times in history. It seems to me that the Wheel uses this thread to fix this particular problem many times.

[Luckers]

Oh ok, I got you now.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Does that make any sense? No? Good.

 

Makes perfect sense to me.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

When they sealed the foresaken in the bore I always assumed that was punishement, a greater punishement than death or balefire.

[Palin]

Oh ok, I got you now.

 

Thanks, I was worried I was misunderstanding something important. Obviously you've more experience on debating topics like these than I do=p

 

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

I agree that he doesn't remember the fights.

 

I believe that Ishy's statements regarding the fight happening over and over again were more of a Rand Vs DO one than Rand vs Ishy. But I can't remember if this conversation only took place in books 1-3 or have we seen it again as Moridin?

 

 

 

[Agitel]

Oh ok, I got you now.

 

Thanks, I was worried I was misunderstanding something important. Obviously you've more experience on debating topics like these than I do=p

 

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

I agree that he doesn't remember the fights.

 

I believe that Ishy's statements regarding the fight happening over and over again were more of a Rand Vs DO one than Rand vs Ishy. But I can't remember if this conversation only took place in books 1-3 or have we seen it again as Moridin?

 

 

I believe Ishamael was off his rocker or lying. I really doubt Ishamael was tied to the Wheel (or to the Dark One) beyond his life (except for the Dark One snatching him up the second his first incarnation died), so that he'd be reborn to serve the Dark One over and over again. Ishy was likely referring to Rand's battle with the Dark One.

 

[mossman87]

Oh ok, I got you now.

 

Thanks, I was worried I was misunderstanding something important. Obviously you've more experience on debating topics like these than I do=p

 

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

I agree that he doesn't remember the fights.

 

I believe that Ishy's statements regarding the fight happening over and over again were more of a Rand Vs DO one than Rand vs Ishy. But I can't remember if this conversation only took place in books 1-3 or have we seen it again as Moridin?

 

 

I believe Ishamael was off his rocker or lying. I really doubt Ishamael was tied to the Wheel (or to the Dark One) beyond his life (except for the Dark One snatching him up the second his first incarnation died), so that he'd be reborn to serve the Dark One over and over again. Ishy was likely referring to Rand's battle with the Dark One.

 

 

I would agree here, in that I think Ishy is insane and maybe lying, but we have so many quotes from RJ and BS about the Dragon Soul fighting on the other side, and the Dragon Soul being used age after age, that I'd have to concede and say maybe for this point Ishy wasn't lying.

 

Edit: But honestly we just don't know, we'll probably find out in the encyclopedia, I hope.

[lordofsoup]

Couldent Lew Therin be the Dragon?  The first dragon, and the primary name that the soul carries while it is the dream world.  Why does Artur Hawkwing calls him Lew Therin, not any of the other names that he used during all of his past lives?  Just like Brigitte is the hero of 1000s of legends, they were really either made up, or the name Brigitte's soul was using during the time that she was reborn.  All of her deeds are credited to Brigitte, but not to the person who she was at that time.  Could Rand al'Thor just be the name that the Dragon, Lew Therin is using, and he feels the Lews Therin personality over all the others because that is the primary person that his soul is?  After a thousand years is it possible that people always remember the Dragon's name to be Lews Therin?

[Vermillion]

Couldent Lew Therin be the Dragon?  The first dragon, and the primary name that the soul carries while it is the dream world.  Why does Artur Hawkwing calls him Lew Therin, not any of the other names that he used during all of his past lives?  Just like Brigitte is the hero of 1000s of legends, they were really either made up, or the name Brigitte's soul was using during the time that she was reborn.  All of her deeds are credited to Brigitte, but not to the person who she was at that time.  Could Rand al'Thor just be the name that the Dragon, Lew Therin is using, and he feels the Lews Therin personality over all the others because that is the primary person that his soul is?  After a thousand years is it possible that people always remember the Dragon's name to be Lews Therin?

 

I think they call him LTT because that's who he was before rebirth since I think the dragon is tied to the horn as well, just like Hawkwing is Hawkwing and not any other life(if he had any).  It goes by the most recent rebirth. Hawkwing knows Rand as LTT. He's dead and probably doesn't know the Dragon as anyone else but LTT even though he sees him reborn as a young man. 

 

LTT is not the first champion of light but might be the first Dragon, we don't know for sure. 

[Vermillion]

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

When they sealed the foresaken in the bore I always assumed that was punishement, a greater punishement than death or balefire.

 

I always wondered how they got sealed since it seemed like the seals aren't physical barrier like they were buried under tons of dirt.

 

You also have to remember Ishy thinks he's the dark one at that point probably from using the TP for 3000 years.

 

[Durinax]

When Elan says they've faught many times before I think he is just being Theological, in a sense. He is certainly not speaking from memory. In fact, I think maybe that Moridin is an evil hero but more or less the rest of the foresaken are just people who are lucky the DO wanted to keep them around. Like he'd invested money in their training and didn't want to have to do it over again so just kept them alive.

 

When they sealed the foresaken in the bore I always assumed that was punishement, a greater punishement than death or balefire.

 

I always wondered how they got sealed since it seemed like the seals aren't physical barrier like they were buried under tons of dirt.

 

You also have to remember Ishy thinks he's the dark one at that point probably from using the TP for 3000 years.

 

I dont think you can say that he has been using the TP for 3000 years, who knows what effect that the seals had on him being able to channel it

[thewalrus777]

Not to mention Ishy was already insane before the DO was sealed away. I would just imagine that 3000 years out wouldn't make him any less crazier than what he already was.

[Diederichos]

What happens to someone's soul once they are balefired. Is the thread cut but the soul part undamaged and just recast into the big blob of stuff waiting to be sent out once more?

[Ashaman Kovan]

What happens to someone's soul once they are balefired. Is the thread cut but the soul part undamaged and just recast into the big blob of stuff waiting to be sent out once more?

 

Their Thread (Including their Soul) is completely burned from the Pattern. They won't ever be reborn again. As far as we know.

[Luckers]

What happens to someone's soul once they are balefired. Is the thread cut but the soul part undamaged and just recast into the big blob of stuff waiting to be sent out once more?

 

Their Thread (Including their Soul) is completely burned from the Pattern. They won't ever be reborn again. As far as we know.

 

Incorrect. Both RJ and Brandon comments on this at different times. People who are balefired can be reborn.