Graendal (Full Spoilers)

[witsd]

I don't think another female channeller could have used compulsion with anything like Graendal's skill, but if Graendal was somehow aware of what Rand was planning to do, she could have weaved the compulsion whilst linked with another female channeller (or perhaps more than one), and then left, leaving the other woman to be balefired.

 

By removing the other woman / rest of the circle, the weaving would probably have been unravelled.

 

This is – of course – utter nonsense, as unless she was psychic, she really had no way to guess what Rand was planning.

[Morsmordre]

I don't think another female channeller could have used compulsion with anything like Graendal's skill, but if Graendal was somehow aware of what Rand was planning to do, she could have weaved the compulsion whilst linked with another female channeller (or perhaps more than one), and then left, leaving the other woman to be balefired.

 

By removing the other woman / rest of the circle, the weaving would probably have been unravelled.

 

This is – of course – utter nonsense, as unless she was psychic, she really had no way to guess what Rand was planning.

 

I don't think she needed to know what Rand was planning. The aftermath of his actions is known to her - he means to kill every Forsaken. She doesn't need to know exactly how in order to save herself by fleeing as fast as she could. I don't think the weave was actually a Compulsion :/ Nyneave didn't say it was Compulsion, only that there was something there and the weave was very complex. I fail to understand why nobody seems to pay attention to Ramshalan. When you are under such a heavy Compulsion (supposing it was Compulsion), it is highly unlikely that you will understand what the people are saying and Ramshalan seemed very terrified. Why? To me, it looked as if he was made to say those things but against his will. It could be some kind of a Compulsion but not the real Compulsion. I remember the trick that Sammael did when sending his 'emissary' to Rand. It looked as if Sammael was talking through the man.

You have to agree that we haven't seen everything that can be done with the Power. Why not assume that it was NOT a Compulsion but some other weave that would make Ramshalan say what he's supposed to say but keeping him conscious? We know that weaves could be tightened so they would dissolve in some time. In the beginning of TGS we see that Nyneave says to Rand that the shields on damane will vanish in 30 minutes. This is very precise amount of time. Why not 5 minutes then? Or even less?

I just don't think that Moridin would give Graendal a job to do and she would fail just because she was balefired by Rand :/ If she truly is dead, then I guess she had already done what she was supposed to do and Rand's going to discover the result of her actions on behalf of Moridin's order to bring him pain. :/

[Sharaman]

If Graen is alive  and her actions are consistent with what we see happens, here's one scenario

1)Ramshal lands up at castle

2) Ramshal is Compelled by Graen and spills beans

3) Graen figures stuff out

4) She removes the compulsion she's laid on

5) Calls in a pet Saidar channeler

6) Gets the said Saidar channeler to weave second dose of Compulsion on Ramshal who is then released

7) Sings " So Long, its been good to know you" and Travels

Then Saidar channeller is balefired and Compulsion disappears

 

Another scenario

As above but Graen works totally thru proxy Saidar Channeler (Ramshal is only compelled once by a Graendal slave)

 

Third Scenario

Graen Travels and balefires her pet saidar channeler because she is too paranoid to leave a pet that knows Compulsion alive,

Hence, the compulsion disappears but Graen is still alive.

 

Your call on whether she's sharp enough and paranoid enough to do any of this.

My take is she's probably dead.

Since timelines are scrambled through the series, we may yet see a PoV from the AoL's leading shrink in ToM.

I do hope she gloats about Asmo :)

 

[Sab]

Graendal isn't that smart do know what Rand was going to do.

 

1. She like most proabably still assumes Rand won't kill a woman

2. She think she is smarter then Rand and probably would have many ways to escape if she thought he was going to attack

3. How would she know Rand sent the man to get compulsed so Rand would know if she died?

4. If  she thought rand was on his way to kill her, I mean come on would she think rand would balefire her entire palace?

5. If she knew what he was going to do odds are she just would of run for her life and not hide out and risk her channeling to undo her weave on the man being detected by any channler with him. 

6. Why does she care if Rand thinks her alive or dead?  She simply could relocate somewhere else and lay low

 

6

[witsd]

2) Ramshal is Compelled by Graen and spills beans

But he doesn't have any beans – no-one but Rand knew what he was going to do it until he did it.

 

It has also occurred to me that there maybe other people who were hit by the balefire who were essential in the compulsion happening – the servant who opened the door, for example.

 

Remove one of those, and suddenly he never got inside to see Graendal at all...

[BladeDancer]

If Graendal figured out that Rand knew where she lived and had come to kill her then she would just Travel out of there asap. Rand figured out a clever way to attack Graendal with little risk for himself. Graendal is hardly likely to figure it out. She would more likely to assume Rand is coming in (if she figures Rand is outside) to fight her like he did Rahvin. It seems far-fetched to think she would figure out Rand would be using the Compulsion on his man to check if Graendal is dead or not. No-one saw that trick coming.

 

Graendal is dead and is not coming back.

[Sharaman]

2) Ramshal is Compelled by Graen and spills beans

But he doesn't have any beans – no-one but Rand knew what he was going to do it until he did it.

 

It has also occurred to me that there maybe other people who were hit by the balefire who were essential in the compulsion happening – the servant who opened the door, for example.

 

Remove one of those, and suddenly he never got inside to see Graendal at all...

 

I meant that Ramshal is put under compulsion and recites his conversation with Rand - Nyn verbatim. That may be enough for Graendal to know Rand was planning something off the wall. I'm saying "may" but the BF-ing of the Palace is so out of character from what Granedal knows of his earlier behaviour, I think it's unlikely.

 

[Morsmordre]

But how would she fulfill the task that Moridin gave her if she is dead? Perhaps she has already done what she intended to and it doesn't matter if she's dead or alive for it to be a problem to Rand :/ Any thoughts what she might have done?

[bushleague]

There's evidence for and against her death thats been presented over and over AND OVER again in less than a month.

 

I think she's alive... BS and RJ never liked to kill characters off screen... the exception being Sammael, but at least we know exactly where he was when mashadar comes down because Rand saw him.  We don't see Graendal when she "dies".

 

She'll be back and will play a key role along with demandred.  They are the only two reliable forsaken imo. Even Ishy got too power hungry at one point.

I disagree. The compulsion was undone, so how could she be alive?

 

If it's impossible to set the web of compulsion to unravel on it's own(Nynaeve did say the weave was different from the web she undid earlier) then Graendal could have compelled another channeler to weave the compulsion.  Those are the only 2 cases I can think of

 

bahaha... I love how a quote from a month and a half ago of mine is being used, talking about how this will be talked about and repeated too many times before ToM comes out. 

 

...And yet I still check this thread... <sigh>

[metaphor]

Rahvin used a web that would unravel on its own on an AS of the red ajah.

And Greandal might have made a very complex web of compulsion, but not have "anchored" it to the man's brain, so that in fact he was never compelled, even though the web was there.

I think she's dead though, because, well there are already too many plot lines to conclude without adding a whole new Greandal plot. And a Greandal asanother servant of Moridin would be pointless.

[ranjitb]

I think she's dead though, because, well there are already too many plot lines to conclude without adding a whole new Greandal plot.

 

This. SO MUCH THIS.

If RJ had started to wrap up plotlines instead of just starting a whole slew of side plots sometime around book 6, we wouldn't be looking at 14 books to tell the story.

Part of the reason I liked TGS so much was that so many stories were wrapped up and MERCIFULLY done. It may not have happened the way people liked it but it was DONE. Another example is the Black Ajah hunt - after all the running around and politicking of the BA hunters and their subplot, they didn't even have a hand in it - Egwene and Verin eviscerated the BA in about two chapters - which sucks, if for some reason Yukiri is your favorite character, but we needed to move on.

 

Grandael may have been an awesome character, but she was not adding ANYTHING to the story, other than effing up Arad Doman, which again, in this book we have just given up as a casualty of war and moved on from. It was basically a reprise of a storyline we have already seen (Rahvin/Andor, Sammael/Illian, Be'Lal/Tear). In fact I would argue that by getting balefired along with her fortress she contributed a whole lot more to the "Eeek ! Rand is nuts" storyline than she would have skulking about randomly bumping off Domani tradeswomen.

Even with her out of the way, there are still a zillion and one plot threads and headaches to resolve in two books - we still don't even know WHERE Demandred is, or WTF is up with Taim.

[a5m]

In book 6 after Grandael's meeting with Sammael, she thought to herself that she was NOT going to end up like Rahvin or Be'Lal. To me, that was RJ's way of telling us that she would eventually be taken out by balefire. :o I think she's gone for good.

[mb]

It seems certain to me that the person who did Ramshalan's Compulsion is the person who died.

From the scene after Ramshalan's return and before the balefire, these also seem certain to me::

-The person was a female (since Ramshalan used the word 'she')

-The person was a saidar wielder (since Rand had to ask Nynaeve to test Ramshalan)

 

Those would narrow the person down to these::

-Graendal

-Moghedien

-Mesaana

-Cyndane

-Black Ajah person

 

Graendal's POV in the prologue tells only Moridin knew where to find her. If that is true, then Mesaana could be ruled out since Moghedien and Cyndane visited Graendal.

Liandrin's Blacks (which later became Moghedien's), 9 have survived the first 11 books; 6 of those were like captured.  The 3 remaining (Berylla Naron, Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran) were not taught Compulsion before they left to do Moghedien's instructions.  So they can be ruled out.

Verin knows Compulsion, but she was seen chronologically after the balefire. So she can be ruled out.

The Blacks in rebel camp and White Tower, there is no indication of them either discovering or being taught Compulsion.  So Black Ajah might be able to be ruled out.

Thus (if those things are true, then) the person would be narrowed down to these::

-Graendal

-Moghedien

-Cyndane

 

Graendal probably would be the only one of them that could be considered refined (Ramshalan's comment).  So she likely is the person.

Thus (if she was the person, then) she is dead.

 

[witsd]

It seems certain to me that the person who did Ramshalan's Compulsion is the person who died.

I can't seem to help but flip-flop on this assumption.

 

First of all, I agreed with you, but then I twigged that if the person who unlocked the front door (or any other minor, but essential role) was BF'd (and they would have been), then Ramshalan would never have been Compelled either.

 

But then there's the point that was made elsewhere regarding the bruises on Min's neck that are still there after Semi is BF'd, and Semi was clearly necessary for that event.

 

So either you are right or there are major inconsistencies in the way that BF is seen.

[witsd]

Accidental double.

[pholt1389]

Good point about the front door, witsd. I hadn't thought of that. I do, however, believe that Graendal is indeed dead.

 

As a first post, I'm just going to say that I was severely, very severely, disappointed by the way she died. Sure, it showed an ever darker part of Rand, but the other Forsaken at least had a fight. She wasn't even "on screen", as it were. I feel it's a slight to a character I had hoped to see in battle at some point, even if she shyed away from that sort of thing.

[Sharaman]

It seems certain to me that the person who did Ramshalan's Compulsion is the person who died.

I can't seem to help but flip-flop on this assumption.

 

First of all, I agreed with you, but then I twigged that if the person who unlocked the front door (or any other minor, but essential role) was BF'd (and they would have been), then Ramshalan would never have been Compelled either.

 

But then there's the point that was made elsewhere regarding the bruises on Min's neck that are still there after Semi is BF'd, and Semi was clearly necessary for that event.

 

So either you are right or there are major inconsistencies in the way that BF is seen.

 

Anything that involves time paradoxes like BF will have inconsistencies. Not much to be done about that.

It's a nice analytical exercise by MB eliminating a large number of those who have means and motives. Moggy and Cyndane would have to be visiting at exactly the right time and Ramshal would have to met one of them rather than Lady Basene.

Unfortunately it is barely possible, given Graendal's Shara connections that she had a pet channeler from Shara on hand. So it doesn't quite rule the "other saidar channelers" theory.

 

[Sab]

Can't wait till the next Forsaken meeting when its announced 2 more Forsaken are toast and both are women.  That should cause some panic. 

 

But I agree was time for her to die since she added nothing to the storyline anymore.  If you think about it most of the Forsaken suck and have made a mess of almost everything.  Asan'gar fled, Mes severly weakened in the tower, Moghi plots came to nothing, Lanfear failed to turn Rand, Ba'el Rhavin, and Samm dead and their nations o nthe side of good now.  Semi and Grandel caused some chaos but died. 

[Crael123]

its kinda far feched to think Gran is still alive.... she was a nice character but lets just let her go....

[Taura-Tierno]

I was a bit disappointed that we didn't see more of her in the book, since I liked the character, but I'd definitely agree that it's far-fetched that she'd be alive. I don't rule out the possibility, but it would just be weird if she was. Why add twists everwhere, when they're not necessary, when the end is approaching? I would just be a mess if she returned, and SO cliché. I'm not a fan of characters dying off-screen, just for this reason. There's always the possibility that they didn't really die. If Graendal's alive, it would ruin the entire point being made about Rand being too emotionless and too reckless with Balefire.

[mb]

but then I twigged that if the person who unlocked the front door (or any other minor, but essential role) was BF'd (and they would have been), then Ramshalan would never have been Compelled either.

Yet unlocking the front door (or other role) does not necessarily cause Compulsion.

Also, all the people in the palace (besides Graendal) were under Graendal's orders, and they had no way of disobeying those orders.

 

[witsd]

Yet unlocking the front door (or other role) does not necessarily cause Compulsion.

I'm not saying that it would, only that it is a necessary step for the compulsion to take place, and thus undoing that action might undo the compulsion as well. I'm not sure what you are getting at re: the people being unable to disobey Graen – why is that relevant?

[mb]

Yet unlocking the front door (or other role) does not necessarily cause Compulsion.

I'm not saying that it would, only that it is a necessary step for the compulsion to take place, and thus undoing that action might undo the compulsion as well.

I think that could only be if the person that did the compulsion was controlled by the person that did the role (like through an adam) when the compulsion was done.

 

I'm not sure what you are getting at re: the people being unable to disobey Graen – why is that relevant?

Why is it relevant?  Because it indicates the person who has control.

For a different person's actions to become undone, I take that the balefired person would need to have control over the other person when the actions were done (assuming that the balefire's time overlaps the time of the actions).

 

[wcbrooks]

just a quick thought -

 

At one point it was been debated if Noal Charin was under the compulsion of Graendal and can not remember if it was resolved or not!

 

either way if he was, then with Graendals death then he is free, and then the effects of him (if any) coming out of it will show.

 

 

[JakeBarnes]

In TGS, when Nynaeve and Rand are discussing the removal of Compulsion, the heavy compulsion that Graendal uses was said to be so powerful that removing it would kill the person.  Besides, the compulsion would still be there because it wouldn't remove her thread that far.