Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[wingedearth]

Well, Demandred was a general in the AOL, when war looked a great deal different than it does in the 3rd Age. Reading the literature the generals he will face have read would help him get some hints about how they think. Even the most arrogant general would not turn down an easy way to get even a small extra advantage.

 

Demandred knows war with shocklances and plasma rifles and photon torpedoes and whatnot. The Third Age has military units with different technology, and thus tactics and strategy change, and Demandred has to go read Third Age War For Dummies.

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

This war, aside from shocklances, I think is going to look a frightening amount like the War of Shadow.  Traveling, lots o' Channelers both male and female. All sorts of Shadow nasties. Seems like he knows better what the Great Captains will do to adapt than they do, since he's captained it already.  I dunno.  I just don't think he fits Roedran.

 

And if MoM is super close to reality, you might not notice it.  Such as.. not being present on someone's clothes, just their face and hair.

 

if only it was so simple. for real world references look at WW1, trying a cavalry charge(highly successful in prior wars), but against trenches, theyre useless. and i doubt a vet of WW2 would be able to command in current day warefare and vice versa. im not saying he is roedran(or bela, or luckers), but hed still need current books on war. it could work the other way, like matts did, but matts warfare is similar to current warfare, where as Dems war style was vastly different on all levels, supply, tactics, strategy, what weapons are available(a shock lance is probably nothing like a bow), transport(foot and cavalry as opposed to rapid vehicles), and in terms of fire support(missile launchers etc as opposed to just formations and outflanking). on top of which even the men are different, with regards to combat effectivenes and numbers(lots less people, who are more warlike in nature, as opposed to the population in AoL, and attitudes to war). its not as simple as keep the men fed, and go this way/that way, strategy and tactics.

[saidarisnowtainted]

sorry guys i'm in a terrible rush and i didnt want to forget this idea--i didnt read the previous posts and i had this thought--

 

i was reading--http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,50458.1824.html

 

guys--what if Demandred is Ruarc???!!!!

[witsd]

guys--what if Demandred is Ruarc???!!!!

He's not – we know for a fact that Demandred had not made an actual appearance (aside from in other Forsaken's POVs) in any of the books up to KoD (and possibly further).

[thewalrus777]

guys--what if Demandred is Ruarc???!!!!

He's not – we know for a fact that Demandred had not made an actual appearance (aside from in other Forsaken's POVs) in any of the books up to KoD (and possibly further).

 

Not to mention, Demandred looks nothing like Rhuarc and the MoM would have to be a strong weaving and thus wouldn't be able to come into contact with anyone, especially his wives. So yeah Rhuarc is not Demandred.

[bronnt]

Sorry if this has been debated into the ground already, but I read the first 20 or so pages of this thread, and there were so many retreads that I despaired of finishing the last several pages, but I am trying to provide fresh perspective.

 

I'm of two minds about Murandy.  I doubt Demandred IS Roedran, despite the fact that it would fit with what we know about Demandred's alter-ego remaining off-screen.  First, there's the knowledge that he likes to use proxies, which would suggest he's avoiding directly influencing events.  And secondly, Roedran lets the Band slip out of Murandy and rejoin Mat, and given the standing "kill" order on Mat and Perrin, Demandred wouldn't allow that without at least arranging a nasty surprise (Compulsion on Talmanes?).  Since Mat is actually still alive several weeks later, I'm not expecting that surprise.  And the arrival of the Band basically already saved Mat's neck, AND allowed Tuon to escape, which interfered with Semirhage's plans.

 

Then there's what we actually know about Demandred.  Graendal's comment that he liked having armies to command, and his "My rule is secure," comment, and the fact that he's a great general.  Murandy makes sense, given that comment, because of its timing-Murandy was fairly disorganized until the Aes Sedai dropped into it, and the Band helped rally some forces behind Roedran (presumably).  It also makes sense to keep Demandred in Randland rather than in, say, Shara, because they'd be harder to integrate at this point.  We can rule out all of the principle Borderland rulers, as well, since they were all on-screen together before KoD.  I don't think the Borderlanders were being duped, either, given the part they played in unifying Andor; not exactly sowing chaos there.

 

One last thought, rather far-fetched, is that he engineered something off-screen in Cairhien during TGS.  The absence of Rand and Dobraine from Cairhien leaves a serious leadership vacuum.  We can't rule out that Rand is making some off-screen jumps to Cairhien to check on things (mostly his school) but the question is-who's in charge there?

[dovieandi]

I was just reading this thread while rereading Path of Daggers, and I had to register to post this.

 

In support of the Roedran is Demandred theory, this happens near the end of Chapter 18, where Egwene talks to Talmanes and first learns of his plan to work for Roedran:

 

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

RJ likes being subtle and slipping hints in, I think that this could be a very good sign that Roedran is Demandred, especially when you take into account that Murandy is relatively in the south and Roedran has been gathering an army.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Also of possible relevance to the Roedran-Demandred and Mesaana-Danelle theory links, is a piece from 'Fires of Heaven' where Danelle reports to Elaida secret attempts at negotiations with Altara and Murandy by Pedron Niall. One has to question exactly -how- a "friendless" "dreamy" Brown without Travelling (this was early on, recall) has such insightful information, on Whitecloaks no less.

 

Of key note to that information is the fact that Altara was dead in Semirhage's sights at this time for the Retun (actively being spied upon by Seanchan scouts) and Demandred would (hypothetically) have been consolidating his rule in Murandy.

 

That's an indicator of the Semirhage/Demandred/Mesaana conspiracy.

[bronnt]

Just revisiting this... RJ seemed suprised when the first Q&A's of Taimandred came through.

 

Despite the two characters being physicially described very similarly.

Despite LTT's immediate and visceral reaction to Taim when they first meet.

Despite their introduction pretty much at the same time.

Despite the fact that Taim would likely have been 'The Dragon' if Rand had not been, much as Demi would likely have been 'The Dragon' if LTT had not been (in their respective minds, at least).

Despite the fact Demi has spoken as someone of this age would not have ('these so-called Aes Sedai') and has spoken as someone who had been to Shayol Ghul would have ('let the Lord of Chaos rule').

Despite the fact that he has built his own private army of Asha'man in opposition to Rand and Demi tells the Morridin that his army is secure and waiting (what other standing army is there that might realistically belong to Demi?).

 

This list is far from complete, but it paints a pretty glaring picture of a character very deliberately set up to be Demandred... and I find it hard to believe that 1) RJ would be 'suprised' that someone might see the similarities so deliberately and painstakingly put into place or 2) RJ would go to such great efforts to create a red herring and then publically announce that it is in fact just that. He wasn't exactly known for acknowledging or debunking significant theories before they are revealed (i.e. Verin for instance).

 

I'm still holding to the fact that there is some explanation to side-step his words on the matter, rather than simply assuming that he decided at random to throw away so much careful character development for such a major character (two, actually) at what amounts to the last minute. THAT explanation is the one that strains credibility, considering what we know of the man as a writer and as a person.

 

 

Why are people still talking about this?

 

[Rongomai]

I'm leaning towards Demandred being Roedran too, after all what better way to see how your enemy engages in battle without loss on your side but to have them fight for you, unfortunately I think this also means Demandred knows exactly where Matt is, I think the pipe he gave Talmanes has a finder weave on it.

[Tel Asra Nejoar]

the forsaken already know how to trace ta'veren, why would he need a finder? im not debunking the roedran theory, but this has popped up a few times, and it just seems unnecessary.

[Sharaman]

I was just reading this thread while rereading Path of Daggers, and I had to register to post this.

 

In support of the Roedran is Demandred theory, this happens near the end of Chapter 18, where Egwene talks to Talmanes and first learns of his plan to work for Roedran:

 

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

RJ likes being subtle and slipping hints in, I think that this could be a very good sign that Roedran is Demandred, especially when you take into account that Murandy is relatively in the south and Roedran has been gathering an army.

 

Nice quote, nice reasoning. Only weak point I can think of, Egwene is operating from hearsay and she has very little idea personally whether Roedran is smart or not. I do think Murandy makes sense however - but so does the Borderlanders. But Demandred could be operating in Murandy without actually being Roedran.  

BTW Murandy is West of Arad Doman (where Graendal was based) and North of Ilian (where Sammael who said "Events to the South..." to Graendal was based).

 

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I was just reading this thread while rereading Path of Daggers, and I had to register to post this.

 

In support of the Roedran is Demandred theory, this happens near the end of Chapter 18, where Egwene talks to Talmanes and first learns of his plan to work for Roedran:

 

It was a remarkable plan, the sort of thing Siuan might devise, and hardly a scheme she thought Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy could carry off. The fellow was said to be so dissolute he made Mat look wholesome. But then, it was hardly a scheme she would have believed Roedran could think up.

 

RJ likes being subtle and slipping hints in, I think that this could be a very good sign that Roedran is Demandred, especially when you take into account that Murandy is relatively in the south and Roedran has been gathering an army.

 

Nice quote, nice reasoning. Only weak point I can think of, Egwene is operating from hearsay and she has very little idea personally whether Roedran is smart or not. I do think Murandy makes sense however - but so does the Borderlanders. But Demandred could be operating in Murandy without actually being Roedran.  

BTW Murandy is West of Arad Doman (where Graendal was based) and North of Ilian (where Sammael who said "Events to the South..." to Graendal was based).

 

You mean that Murandy is east of Arad Doman? Or South east, actually.

[Sharaman]

Yes I mean Murandy is East of Arad Doman, indeed my bad and North of Ilian.

Anyway this is hardly conclusive of anything since we don't know "Events to the South" of what(?).

Sammael and Graendal's location at the time of conversation is not clear IIRC.

And Sam could be using "South" in a generic contextual way like an Aussie talking about the Allman Bros (for example) might say "I like Southern rock" even though he's located way South of the Southern US.

 

 

[bronnt]

Yes I mean Murandy is East of Arad Doman, indeed my bad and North of Ilian.

Anyway this is hardly conclusive of anything since we don't know "Events to the South" of what(?).

Sammael and Graendal's location at the time of conversation is not clear IIRC.

And Sam could be using "South" in a generic contextual way like an Aussie talking about the Allman Bros (for example) might say "I like Southern rock" even though he's located way South of the Southern US.

 

They were in Graendal's palace in Arad Doman.  Specifically, East Arad Domon (probably southeast, actually, but all we know is that it was originally guarding a border near the Mountains of Mist).  This is a certainty.

 

The "events in the south" quote has really caused a lot of confusion concerning Demandred, but it's clearly referring to one of two things, based on the timeline.

 

1) Most likely, he's talking about Masema, who Demandred is manipulating to sow chaos in Ghealdan in the name of the Dragon.  It's similar to Pedron Nial's tactic of letting people turn against Rand by spreading chaos, which makes some kind of sense because both Demandred and Pedron Nial are great generals.  It fits with Sammael's comment about Demandred using proxies, and with Demandred's report of success to the DO at the end of LoC.

 

2) It's possible that Sammael is mistaken.  RJ has warned us that we can't always take the Forsaken at face value (mostly regarding how they perceieve each others' strength in the OP), so he could be referring to the invasion of the Seanchan at Tanchico.  It is at least connected to Demandred, since Semirhage is allied with him and is embedded with the Seanchan, so he's not completely wrong.  This is more directly south of Arad Domon, fits the timeline a bit better than the Prophet does, and seems like a plausible mistake-Demandred would like to have armies at his back, so Sammael would presume to find him at the head of an army.

[bronnt]

I'm leaning towards Demandred being Roedran too, after all what better way to see how your enemy engages in battle without loss on your side but to have them fight for you, unfortunately I think this also means Demandred knows exactly where Matt is, I think the pipe he gave Talmanes has a finder weave on it.

 

That works, but it would again be an example of the Forsaken being bad at their jobs.  He'd have done better to use Compulsion to get Talmanes murder Mat in his sleep.  Maybe Talmanes and a few others, just to make sure.  And considering that the Band already saved Mat's neck (and Tuon's, which really ruined Semmy's plans), I'd call that a massive failure on his part.  Maybe my problem is that I expect the villians to be competant, which hasn't exactly been the case so far.

 

It's not like this is the failure of the Forsaken to kill off Rand, since they had orders not to interfere with him.  They've had a standing "kill" order for Mat and Perrin since WH (IIRC).

[Ishna]

What is this obsession about Demandred needing to be posing as someone. I dont see how he would gain anything by taking time to impersonate charles guybon for example.

And king roedran? A smaller country with no influence. Why take that throne? My guess is that he is doing some behind the scenes scheming and that he might be coordinating dreadlords to set up them as an army usi8ng his proxies in the Black Tower as well as black ajah. Since war it was he does best thats what he is probably preparing for.

[Eht Slat Meit]

What is this obsession about Demandred needing to be posing as someone. I dont see how he would gain anything by taking time to impersonate charles guybon for example.

 

It's probably the difficulty of deciding which are his proxies and which are the man himself. IF any are linked to him, of course.

 

And king roedran? A smaller country with no influence. Why take that throne? My guess is that he is doing some behind the scenes scheming and that he might be coordinating dreadlords to set up them as an army usi8ng his proxies in the Black Tower as well as black ajah. Since war it was he does best thats what he is probably preparing for.

 

If you look at a map in the hardcovers, you'll note that the Blight, Murandy, Tar Valon, Altara and Falme encircle and are the perfect staging grounds for a five-faced assault on Andor. Mesaana = Tar Valon, Semirhage = Altara/Falme (via the Seanchan). Speculation has it that Demandred is behind the removal of the Borderlanders and if he's got a proxy in Murandy, that makes a deadly effective circle.

 

The combination of Tar Valon, Altara, Murandy and Far Madding (naturally avoided) cuts Andor off from the Dragon-controlled countries of Tear, Illian and Cairhein, two of which were formerly controlled by Forsaken.

 

That would have been my prediction, had Semirhage not gotten offed. IF that was the plan, Demandred's going to have to try something new or pray that the Seanchan keep Rand occupied, because he can no longer rely on the Seanchan.

[Sharaman]

The other way of looking at it is that Murandy is an useful staging point in the heart of Randland. If there are unguarded Waygates there, armies can be transported to attack any of several countries.

[StefanR]

I think Demandred is at least influencing the borderlanders. Forsaken have suggested as much, and Demandred has been spying on Elayne in TAR, and one time the wondergirls see somebody spying on them with a borderlanders cloak, which must be a male channeller.

 

Altough it could be a red herring intended to turn people against the borderlanders, since they make up a large portion of the forces of light

[Bazarat]

I think Demandred is at least influencing the borderlanders. Forsaken have suggested as much, and Demandred has been spying on Elayne in TAR, and one time the wondergirls see somebody spying on them with a borderlanders cloak, which must be a male channeller.

 

Altough it could be a red herring intended to turn people against the borderlanders, since they make up a large portion of the forces of light

 

I always thought that was Luc/Isam/Slayer. Being he looks like Rands uncle and Luc is kinda rands uncle and the descriptions fit.

[Sharaman]

I also thought that was Slayer in his Isam persona when he is a Borderlander.

 

[Muad Cheade]

I think Demandred is at least influencing the borderlanders. Forsaken have suggested as much,

They were speculating. They did not know for certain. Remember Sammael thought he was in the South.

 

and Demandred has been spying on Elayne in TAR, and one time the wondergirls see somebody spying on them with a borderlanders cloak, which must be a male channeller.

That was Slayer.

 

I do not believe he is with the Borderlanders as they are in a stedding. That deprives Demandred of his number one asset: his powerful channeling ability.

 

As for him being King Roedran of Murandy, I think it is unlikely on the basis that his army, which Talmanes said had just grown large enough to challenge the experienced Band (35-45,000 men), is still inferior in number to the forces of the main in the region: Elayne, Rand, For(tuon)a, and the Borderlanders. Each of them have well over three times the size of Roedran's army.

 

I'm still an advocate of the Demandred in Shara theory. We have even seen a Sharan in Tear who was most likely spying.

[grump]

Hey guys (and ladies)

 

everybody goes round and round about this subject.  Maybe a reboot would help.

 

so: WHAT CHARACTER (MALE)DO YOU THINK IS LEAST LIKELY TO BE DEMANDRED.

 

The grump

[Eht Slat Meit]

Hey guys (and ladies)

 

everybody goes round and round about this subject.  Maybe a reboot would help.

 

so: WHAT CHARACTER (MALE)DO YOU THINK IS LEAST LIKELY TO BE DEMANDRED.

 

Rand Al'Thor?  :P