Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Muad Cheade]

In KoD doesn't one of the Seanchan chaps say it himself ? Something like "We think this (Mat's raids) is important enough to pull out that army from the Pass (Forgotten the name) and risk being attacked by Andor or Murandy".

 

The last part of that quote is "...though from what I have heard, neither is capable from striking at anyone from the record." There have been no conflicts between the two and the reason that army is there is to prevent Murandy or Andor from attacking them through that pass. The Seanchan do not consider them threats right now.

 

The reason I don't think Demndred is in Murandy is because his army (35-45,000) is not large enough to challenge the armies of the four major powers in the region (Rand, Elayne, the Seanchan, and the Borderlanders).

[Sharaman]

Ah ok - so there's no official state of war as such - the Seanchan were just guarding a strategic locale with reserves "just in case". Murandy the most puzzling thing is that Roedran has suddenly been afflicted by smarts. The Borderland business is more puzzling since they've really done something strange. I can't remember the Juilin finding out about a new ally of the Seanchan - where does he do that?

[Sab]

In KoD doesn't one of the Seanchan chaps say it himself ? Something like "We think this (Mat's raids) is important enough to pull out that army from the Pass (Forgotten the name) and risk being attacked by Andor or Murandy".

 

The last part of that quote is "...though from what I have heard, neither is capable from striking at anyone from the record." There have been no conflicts between the two and the reason that army is there is to prevent Murandy or Andor from attacking them through that pass. The Seanchan do not consider them threats right now.

 

The reason I don't think Demndred is in Murandy is because his army (35-45,000) is not large enough to challenge the armies of the four major powers in the region (Rand, Elayne, the Seanchan, and the Borderlanders).

 

I doubt Demandred can gather a large enough army to challenge all those by himself, but they will be in a prime position to attack Andor from the back.  He just needs to bring forces to fight for the DO wether they know what side they fight for or not.  Not win the fight on his own.  As some the others have said they will bring nations to the DO.

[Teslan]

Wouldn't the upheavel in Shara be related to Graendal kidnapping the king/queen?  (something like that)

[Sharaman]

That's what everyone thought at first but Demandred might seize the day and set up his own power structure in the confusion.

Doesn't make sense as a plot element though. You'd take 500 pages to explain what a new horde of pathologically lying, women-only channelers and massive silk-clad armies were doing, floating out of the Waste.

 

[Luckers]

More. The Aiel Instant Army took two books to be made reasonable.

 

I liked the silk clad armies though.

[grolm]

In TGS doesn't Demandred say to Moridin, "My rule is secure. We will be ready."? Sorry don't have my book here to look it up.

 

If so, the we makes me think strongly that he's with the Borderlanders behind the scenes pulling strings.

[feliasgrimm]

I can easily see a strong argument for EITHER being in murandy or pulling black tower strings from afar (via taim).

 

I see shara as a possibility, and while I would agree somewhat that it'd be bad storytelling at this point to bring shara into the mix, the other half of that coin is this:

If RJ had developed Shara to the extent of some of the other areas, we'd all KNOW there was something there. Having Demandred being the last "at large" forsaken, it'd be pretty damn obvious that it was coming (which, I suspect, is why so many people saw the anath/semirhage connection ahead of time).

So, by bringing in *just enough* info for us to get a pretty good grip of the culture (and we STILL don't have a huge amount on the domani other than being hot, liking slinky clothes, and being good bargainers) BUT not enough to make us pay attention that way, it makes for a good surprise later.

So I'd put Shara as my number 2 theory (behind murandy).

 

The third strongest (i'd put this slightly ahead of the BT theory) is the Aiel.

 

IIRC, Demandred was responsible for the Shaido being split up all over the place. What if that was intentional, so he could join them with the strife. As a result of their experiences, most of the Shaido have only reinforced the ideal of subjugating wetlanders, hating Rand, Aes sedai and pretty much everyone else.

At the end of KoD, a Shaido was leaving for Rhuidean to try to become a clan chief. For obvious reasons, Demandred probably can't go through and get the dragon markings, but we've already seen that the forsaken can make their own (it was demmy, lanfear or asmodean who did couladins... THINK it was asmodean but I'm rusty).

All Demmy would have to do - as clan chief - is turn a few of the Shaido over to the dark one (and frankly, it wouldn't be hard given that personality-wise most of them are only a half-step away anyways). A tiny bit of compulsion on a few key Wise Ones to keep the women in line, a dragon on the arms would keep most of the men behind him and he'd pretty much have it. Wouldn't take that long to secure his rule, especially if he'd been laying the groundwork in Malden.

Aiel would appeal to him, given that they are extremely hierarchical in nature anyways, are superior warriors and being to the east would give him excellent tactical advantage - Assuming Shara remains isolated (and graendal probably insured that during their alliance) then he doesn't have to worry about an enemy at his own back and he could flank the randlanders as they went north to shayol ghul (and they CAN'T travel to SG with the massed army, there's just not enough gateway for all those troops.. perrin can't move his current army even with several channelers, and it's MUCH smaller than the combined randlander armies). Tarwin's gap is towards the east, which means an eastern front is a good tactical move. From the south (murandy), he'd risk getting crushed between the seanchean and randlanders if they decided to ally at the last minute.

 

BT would provide him an army that's small enough for fast transport (a few hundred rogue asha'man would constitute "army", and a good number of them can transport themselves even if not someone else).

 

Also, reinforcing the shara idea: to be honest, we haven't seen much of murandy either. We hear about it being a disloyal place, alliances being this lord and that versus behind a king, and we have the band recruited by (supposedly) the king to shore it up a bit and unite it - but we don't really SEE any of that (other than talmanes talking to egwene and later mat, but the "king" could just have easily been demmy in disguise since it's unlikely that ANY of the band knew him any better than Rand would have known who DOTH9M was before Semirhage blew his hand off). That lends more credence to murandy but also a decent amount to Shara as well.

 

So I'm voting Aiel just because it's my theory and I haven't seen anyone else jump in with it, BUT if I were less biased I'd lean either murandy or shara.

[Sharaman]

The problem with Shaido being taken over by Demandred is that they're now pretty close to being broken - not more than 15K-20K worth of spearpersons on the Shaido side anymore. Also Sammy (not Demandred) scattered them all over the Westlands with his random gates. So they wouldn't be a very useful or cohesive fighting force and most of them aren't East of the Spine anyhow. His comment "My forces are ready---" doesn't make sense in this context.

 

Demandred could however, be managing the overall Aiel Darkfriend contingent. There is one obviously - we are given hints through the entire series. That would be more likely to be effective if he could suddenly subvert Rand's core support. 

 

Murandy and Shara both seem a stretch. Murandy is a small army in a strategic locale. Maybe he intends to use it as a staging post for bringing a large army from the Blight through the Ways.

 

Shara would cause crazy narrative problems for the other reason - from what we know of Shara, it's too big. If Demandred suddenly puts a vast army of channelers and massive conventional forces in the field rivalling the Seanchan in size, we completely shift the weight of the narrative. 

 

I favour Demandred nudging the Borderlanders, since they have done something that makes no sense at all. In order to chat with RaT, they have marched hundreds of leagues South, with very large armies and their entire leadership, abandoning their own lands to a big strike out of the Blight. A general like Demandred would have been trying to pull the best soldiers in the world (better than Aiel simply because they integrate cavalry, etc) out of position. It's happened - so I'm assuming he's responsible.

 

[Terez]

I think it most likely that Demandred has his hand in a number of things - the Borderlanders, Murandy, and the Black Tower to name a few (the last for certain).  I don't see any reason to believe that he has any one alter ego.

[Luckers]

That's my thought as well. And the specfic 'rule' he has secured is the Trollocs following the subversion of some of them by the fake Sammael.

[feliasgrimm]

My bad on the Sammy/Dem/Aiel thing - I JUST reread the series but the earlier books were STILL several thousand pages ago so it got muddy.

 

My vote is for Shara or Murandy, pretty much in that order, for his Primary Area (his "rule" that is secure). He's probably bossing around darkfriends from a number of areas (aiel included, but unless its controlled Shaido I don't see it being a huge contingent).

 

Keep in mind that when the aiel were attacked in Malden:

Not everyone died

At least two septs were still outside the killing fields

SOME aiel escaped (including, most likely, a number who could channel. IIRC Therava was among them 'cuz she led off Galina)

I'd assume there were more than 20k Shaido surviving ASSUMING that we're counting the septs that weren't IN malden at the time.

 

Not that I'm arguing particularly hard for the theory, just presenting some thoughts. I still think Shara or Murandy are more likely.

[Sharaman]

Perrin and Tylee knew about two Aiel Septs of about 6K each that were converging on Malden.

Therava led a contingent of several hundred Shaido out of Malden.

That's why I assumed about 15-20K.

Still, it's a force that's not very large and without travelling, it's stuck in Ghealdean.

Even before Sammael scattered them, the Shaido had been whittled down to around 50K (Dumai's Wells and the Carhein battles) and they've had disasters apart from Malden) since with many Septs wiped out peacemeal.

I don't think the Shaido is capable of playing a major role as a fighting force - Therava, Galina and Bending Wind might influence events in person, of course. Maybe Demandred is Bending Wind?

Murandy makes more sense because even if it's not large, it seems Roedran has put together a cohesive army. And, it could be an useful staging point to bring a force out the Ways into the heart of Randland.

Shara makes military sense (Assuming Demandred teaches them to Travel since otherwise, the logistics would be crazy) but it doesn't make narrative sense.

To me, the Borderlands make the most sense also because some Chosen must have been assigned to the Borderlands. It's right in front of the Blight. Who? Lanfear (with her Palace of marble which has not been located) is the only other possibility if we discount Moridin himself and Lanfear seems to have focussed on Rand to the exclusion of everyone else.

 

 

 

[feliasgrimm]

Got it. You've got a better grip on the numbers than I did. I was thinking closer to 50k, but your numbers line up smarter.

 

Agree with your thoughts on Shara and Murandy.

 

Disagree with you on the borderlands:

Graendal was in Arad Doman (which is RIGHT next to Saldea) and Moridin is in the blight (malkier IIRC). Plus the borderlanders would be notoriously difficult to turn en masse... I don't think even graendal could compulsion enough to mess up those kingdoms. UNLESS a forsaken was responsible for the borderlanders heading south, which IS somewhat logical. Barring that - a third forsaken up there seems like too many eggs in one basket considering it's a region of allied countries.

[Sab]

Don't think Moridin is in Malikier, since Grendal made note of him being far north in the blight.

 

Still say no to Shara since there is no indication they will play any major role in events (like the Seachan homeland).  Dem doesn't need  huge overwhelming army, thats the trollocs.  He just needs to present a nation with an army to fight for the DO wether they know who they are fighting for or not. 

[Sharaman]

Got it. You've got a better grip on the numbers than I did. I was thinking closer to 50k, but your numbers line up smarter.

Agree with your thoughts on Shara and Murandy.

 

Disagree with you on the borderlands:

Graendal was in Arad Doman (which is RIGHT next to Saldea) and Moridin is in the blight (malkier IIRC). Plus the borderlanders would be notoriously difficult to turn en masse... I don't think even graendal could compulsion enough to mess up those kingdoms. UNLESS a forsaken was responsible for the borderlanders heading south, which IS somewhat logical. Barring that - a third forsaken up there seems like too many eggs in one basket considering it's a region of allied countries.

 

Saldaea is a very large country. The map suggests Graendal was down South in the mtns East of B. Eban, which is hundreds of leagues South of the Blight with many mountains in-between. Moridin is deep in the NE Blight according to Grandal's PoV. Description doesn't sound anything like Malkier, which is just two days ride into the Blight. Remember the Blight continues East of the Spine, (North of the Aiel Waste) while Malkier is due North of Shienar.

My point is, if you look at the Chosen, they all seem to have responsibilities in terms of subverting countries except Moridin who is playing the role of Chief Strategist. None of the ones we know about were focussed on the Borderlands. It's very unlikely that those nations would be ignored by GLoD since they're the first line of defence from the conventional sense and most of GLod's forces can't Travel.

Lanfear. Asmo and Demandred are the three Chosen we know the least about in terms of responsibilities allotted. Lanfear before she got involved with Rand was living somewhere in a marble white place. That could be Borderlands. Asmo was involved with a DF merchant from Saldaeam Kadere, but we don't know where they met up - it could be Carhein. In any case, they're both dead / MIA and it's unlikely that the Borderlands would have been subsequently ignored by GLoD's minions.

The Border rulers and their armies have done something that makes one doubt their sanity, no matter how Ta'veren Rand may be.

This happened (PoD) long after Asmo was dead and Cyndane had been tasked to do other things such as kill Mat and Perrin.

Ergo, the third Chosen with unknown responsibilities, Demandred may have had something to do with the Borderlanders' strategically inexplicable actions.

It's possible Demmy has a very high work rate and fingers in many pies. But whoever it be, somebody surely is responsible for nudging the Borderlands. It doesn't need to be Graendal style - Verin's gentle style of compulsion would actually work better. The compelled find their own rationale and not turn into drooling idiots.

Alternative explanation, there are 13 AS with them - maybe this is a 13x13 situation? That presupposes that all 13 AS concerned are DFs of course.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Plus the borderlanders would be notoriously difficult to turn en masse... I don't think even graendal could compulsion enough to mess up those kingdoms.

 

I think it's important, and possibly relevant, to recognize that the Borderlanders don't need to be turned en masse to really FUBAR things very badly - they are the Blightguard, after all.

 

I can't remember the quote... either something from Faile or in the early books, perhaps, but there was mention that there is very little to no rebellion among the Shienarians and other Blightguard countries, because such a thing puts the survival of the country at risk. Their society is pure discpline, people following those in charge, knowing their place in the rank and file. Because of that, the only persons a Forsaken would likely have to 'turn' (or perhaps a basic compulsion) are the leaders of those four countries.

 

Plant a compulsion they -want- to follow (find the Dragon Reborn to assault Shayol Ghul) and it's unbreakable (Moghedian's Life Compulsion?). Suddenly, the entire Blightborder is opened up and the Blightguard has been rendered completely useless and everything else opened to a surprise strike from a supposedly quiet Blight.

[WolfDragonFox]

Yeah I stick with my thoughts on Demandred organizing the march of the Borderlanders because as is said above, the Borderland countries are disciplined and don't revolt in order to keep focus on defending against the blight.  All he would need is to turn the leaders and I like Saldea (Tenobia) to have been his starting point since it is insinuated (IMO) that she got the other Borderlanders to go with her suggestion of seeking out the DR.  So the army isn't a bunch of Darkfriends just good soldiers following orders, not at all like how Rhavin replaced most of the Queen's Guard with DFs when he compulsed Morgase and took over Andor.  Demandred would want clear minded soldiers obeying direct orders from their leaders IMO and as far as Graendal being too close, well she was the most interested in finding him out of all the forsaken, what better place to hide from someone than right next to them. 

[feliasgrimm]

Compulsed.

 

I love how language develops in small communities. I'm not making fun of you, I'm serious. I think it's funny that we've got words like "compulsed", "Taimandred", "Tamendred", and even "belamandred", "Randlanders", "Finnland" and "The Finns", "balefired".

 

Score a few extra points for the fact that when someone TPs you to death, it's not the same thing as what "normal" people would think of (although both are long streaks of white).

 

Its kinda amusing.

[thewalrus777]

Compulsed.

 

I love how language develops in small communities. I'm not making fun of you, I'm serious. I think it's funny that we've got words like "compulsed", "Taimandred", "Tamendred", and even "belamandred", "Randlanders", "Finnland" and "The Finns", "balefired".

 

Score a few extra points for the fact that when someone TPs you to death, it's not the same thing as what "normal" people would think of (although both are long streaks of white).

 

Its kinda amusing.

 

LMAO! ;D

[cleantoe]

Compulsed.

 

I love how language develops in small communities. I'm not making fun of you, I'm serious. I think it's funny that we've got words like "compulsed", "Taimandred", "Tamendred", and even "belamandred", "Randlanders", "Finnland" and "The Finns", "balefired".

 

Score a few extra points for the fact that when someone TPs you to death, it's not the same thing as what "normal" people would think of (although both are long streaks of white).

 

Its kinda amusing.

 

You forgot "Randandred", my new theory that Demandred is secretly posing as Rand al'Thor while the real Dragon Reborn hasn't even been reborn yet!

[Sharaman]

Berelain is better.

[Vulgir]

Berlain's gonna be sexin up Galad in the next book.

 

                            Mark. My. Words.

[cleantoe]

Berlain's gonna be sexin up Galad in the next book.

 

                            Mark. My. Words.

 

Characters don't have sex in Randland. They share pillows and do other Rated G activities.

[Vulgir]

Not Berlain, we have yet to see what oddities she has in her Pillow Fun

My first guess, Figs and Mice.