Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Crael123]

RJ said Dem's alter ego hadn't been seen till CoT, I think.

Also RJ never said that we should be able to figure out Demandred because of course, he hadn't been seen.

Otherwise the obvious answer is Berelain

"Events to the South" = Mayene is South of everywhere on Randland

"My forces are ready" - her army is right out there scrapping alongside Perrin

The sudden change from having the hots for Perrin to coolth that he smells in CoT while chasing after Faile - that would be when Dem took over from Berelain.

The awesome hotness also helps - Berelain can recruit proxies easily.

 

 

that is implying demondred is gay. and it is mentioned that he isnt.

 

that thoery has a lot of holes. i do not think demondred is Berelain.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

BERELAIN!?!?!?!  Are you on rock?

you've been smoking too much Two Rivers tabac

[mossman87]

Demandred would not be in shara for the simple fact that the last battle is going to be in randland, he would be spending all his time possible moving his proxies around the field for maximum impact come the last battle.

 

This is a very closed thought.. I'm not saying I totally believe Dem is in Shara, but to dismiss them for this is exactly why I think they weren't dismissed.

 

I mean, you could say the same thing about the Seanchan if we didn't see them in TGH.

[mossman87]

I have to go with the pie on Dem, and for people saying you can't get the border landers to fight along side shadow spawn. Well look at it this way, You have the shadow spawn on one side, the light side in the middle facing the shadow. Then you have the border landers behind the light. So if dem can spark a feud between rand and the borderlands they would have reason to fight rand. Now consider the massive size of each army do you think the border landers can see past rands army and spot the darkspawn? It would be an ideal time to strike at rand and really mess up the fight for the light, without the border landers knowing what they even did. Very tactical fitting demandreds style

 

Also Rand has recently dropped an army into the borderlands, whats to stop the border landers  from thinking it's some kind of attempt at taking them over and has them already on the defense?

 

If we've seen anything, it's how easily you can get humans to fight against their own self interests (conservatives in USA), it's totally possible, and I think very poetic if the people tasked to fighting the shadow for 3,000 years end up fighting against their own salvation.

[sty remby]

the Lord of Chaos is similar to Jak o'the Shadows.

It's an expression (and don't try to tell me Mat is Jak)

 

What bothers me is the apparent ineptitude of all the so-called Chosen.

All of their carefully-laid plans and plots are all working at odds to each other.

Kill Rand, no don't kill him  - don't even touch him, but kidnap him, torture him, blah blah.

I had high hopes back in the day for characters like Semihrage and Demandred as we didn't know much about them. Mesaana too i guess.

All the others ended up in pretty lame positions.

And all were easily dispatched by Rand and Co.

 

To find out that Demandred at least has been able to accomplish something noteworthy (and I'm thinking great general, age of Legends - Powerful Chosen stuff, not holed up in a 2nd rate manor house on the arse-end of nowhere) would be relieving.

We know Semi had some kind of accomplishments with the Seanchan, and Mesaana may still have a trick up her cloak, but one of them actually should succeed (short of killing Rand of course).

To find him with an empire (Shara) behind him, a massive army (more on this later) and all the Sharan channelers might just make up for some of the less impressive schemes the Chosen have come up with. And he could still have Taim (and the DT) on his side as well.

 

But to something else - don't forget that the last battle will not be fought the way Rand thinks. So it's not going to be something like Helm's Deep or such. All these hundreds of thousands of troops mucking about the planet may end up with not too much to do at TG if, say, it ends up as a game of Stones between Rand and Moridin in that weird stone room of his with the screaming skulls and fireplace (and wouldn't that be rather anti-climactic?) - I do think that room will play a part in the end though. Throw in an arm wrestling match between SH and Perrin with Mat throwing dice to win a bet to send Fain to Seanchan.

So Dem having a massive army is as much to throw a little more chaos into the mix at the end than anything.

[Muad Cheade]

The Forsaken are well out of their element. Their situation is the equivalent of someone from our time period being sent back to the 1600s. Society, technology, and even simple things such as the language are drastically different. The fact that they were even able to sow the amount of chaos they did is laudable.

 

You are right about Tarmon Gaidon. Rand currently thinks he can win through military might. He is wrong. The battles between human soldiers and Trollocs are just a distraction. The real battle is between Rand and the Dark One. I don't think Rand can slay him as he thinks he can.

[Morsmordre]

Speaking of which, a small offtopic:

 

How so the Forsaken are able to speak the language of the people of the current Age without any differences being noticed? I doubt anyone can learn an entire language so far. The Old Tongue is totally different from the present language. How come nobody notices Dashiva having a different accent, or Lanfear, or Moghedien, or Semirhage?

 

[/offtopic]

[Crael123]

Speaking of which, a small offtopic:

 

How so the Forsaken are able to speak the language of the people of the current Age without any differences being noticed? I doubt anyone can learn an entire language so far. The Old Tongue is totally different from the present language. How come nobody notices Dashiva having a different accent, or Lanfear, or Moghedien, or Semirhage?

 

[/offtopic]

 

 

dashiva was so insane and weird i doubt anybody cared lol.

 

i do not believe we ever figured out where Lanfear was based.... that or she just stalked rand all day.

 

moggy, her followers knew who she was so i doubt they cared about her accent ;D

 

semi was so high and mighty that the lowly people not of blood would just say' i so ignorant i bow i worship i love please do not kill me' and they wer so scared that nobody noticed! o yeah

[Mr Ares]

Speaking of which, a small offtopic:

 

How so the Forsaken are able to speak the language of the people of the current Age without any differences being noticed? I doubt anyone can learn an entire language so far. The Old Tongue is totally different from the present language. How come nobody notices Dashiva having a different accent, or Lanfear, or Moghedien, or Semirhage?[/offtopic]

Aginor and Balthamel were able to watch the world, and ishamael was occasionally out in it. As for the others, the common tongue is like a simplified version of the Old Tongue, they're quite closely related. Therefore, it shouldn't be too difficult to learn. And they've had more than long enough to gain fluency - that can be done in months.

[mike-cook]

Ya also we don't know exactly when the forsaken were freed. I think they were all out by the end of book 1 which would deffinitely give them time to learn another language.

[maradon]

Speaking of which, a small offtopic:

 

How so the Forsaken are able to speak the language of the people of the current Age without any differences being noticed? I doubt anyone can learn an entire language so far. The Old Tongue is totally different from the present language. How come nobody notices Dashiva having a different accent, or Lanfear, or Moghedien, or Semirhage?

 

[/offtopic]

 

The language that everyone speaks now was termed the common language back in the AoL. It was used by the poor and uneducated, however the Aes Sedai from that era would have needed to know the language. They chose instead to use the 'Old Tongue' language as it was more graceful. Hence they practically already knew the modern language and only had to adapt for different accents.

 

Personally I think Demandred will succeed where the others have not, although I think his efforts will be slightly thwarted by Rand in the next book (to keep in with the screen time of at least one Forsaken a book pattern). This would lead me to think that he would be pulling the strings in the Black Tower, however as I said before we wont know for sure until it hits us square in the nose.

[WolfTwins]

Was Demandred in love with Semirhage? No! He was in a trio with Messana and Semirhage. Messana is in WT. Semirhage was the "Seanchan connexion".

Why he was pleading for Semirhage if not for the seanchans? Could a seanchan fleet be on the way for Randland or Demandred is one of the seanchan generals on Westlands or maybe has planned a seanchan - sharan alliance?

From what we know of Shara i don't think that Demandred could be a sharan leader (AntiDragon) or that a sharan army is better than a seanchan army so he'll chose to be her leader. But we still know almost nothing of Shara and don't know if we will so... waiting for ToM.

[Muad Cheade]

Why he was pleading for Semirhage if not for the seanchans?

It is better to have a powerful channeler at your back than her being in captivity.

 

Could a seanchan fleet be on the way for Randland

No. The Seanchan continent is too disordered by war to send over a large army or fleet.

 

or Demandred is one of the seanchan generals on Westlands

It is unlikely he is not longer in control on that faction. The statement he said to Moridin does not fit either. "My rule is secure. We gather for war." He is not the ruler of the Seanchan and the Seanchan have been ready for war ever since they arrived.

 

or maybe has planned a seanchan - sharan alliance?

Seanchan has never been in contact with Shara.

 

From what we know of Shara i don't think that Demandred could be a sharan leader (AntiDragon)

Why not exactly? Graendal kidnapping the rulers leaves a power vacuum for him to take as does the unrest over the Dragon Reborn.

 

or that a sharan army is better than a seanchan army so he'll chose to be her leader.

From it size, Shara could field an army of hundreds of thousands, so the Sharan armies would be useful to the Shadow.

 

But we still know almost nothing of Shara and don't know if we will so... waiting for ToM.

We know more of Shara than we did of Seanchan when they invaded.

[WolfTwins]

It is better to have a powerful channeler at your back than her being in captivity.

We haven't seen much of Semirhage at Shadar Logoth...

The Seanchan continent is too disordered by war to send over a large army or fleet.

The same in Shara.

"My rule is secure. We gather for war."

No Comment. But seanchans gather troops all the time. And that was said before Tuon revealed herself. Why all think he's a king? Well he could be Roedran Almaric... *funny*!

Seanchan has never been in contact with Shara.

I've considered a alliance between the leaders.

From it size, Shara could field an army of hundreds of thousands, so the Sharan armies would be useful to the Shadow.

May be, maybe not. In my view only the Ayyads (a hybrid between AesSedai and WiseOnes) could matter. But you could be right. Please give me some info. about sharan army else than:

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Shara

[Sentinel78]

Please give me some info. about sharan army

 

They wiped out the Hawkwing army that attempted to take over Shara, contrasted with Luthair's army that actually did manage to take over Seanchan (once they got damane).  Granted, this isn't exactly evidence that the Sharans maintain a large army (although I think that's implied from how the Trolloc Wars supposedly infested them), but Sharans can apparently kick ass and take names when necessary, even if it's just a thousand Ayyad lined up throwing fireballs.

[WolfTwins]

They wiped out the Hawkwing army that attempted to take over Shara...

...Sharans can apparently kick ass and take names when necessary, even if it's just a thousand Ayyad lined up throwing fireballs

True. I've forgot. Something like the battle at Algarin's Manor.

Question remain if the Ayyads and sharan army will come out of Shara.

 

This topic is about DEMANDRED not Shara! :-[ :-X :-[

[Muad Cheade]

We haven't seen much of Semirhage at Shadar Logoth...

Does that diminishin her her channeling ability and power?

 

The same in Shara.

Seanchan was plunged into massive civil war a few moths ago. Shara began its infighting well over a year ago; more than enough time for Demandred to secure his rule.

 

No Comment. But seanchans gather troops all the time. And that was said before Tuon revealed herself. Why all think he's a king?

Tuon was in control of the Seanchan even before she became Empress. Demandred saying "We gather for war" implies that whatever faction he is controlling is currently not involved in any military conflict.

 

Well he could be Roedran Almaric... *funny*!

That is possible, but I'm not sure as his army is insignificant (about 35-40,000 men) in comparison to the four major powers around him: Andor, Seanchan, the Borderlanders, and Rand.

 

I've considered a alliance between the leaders.

It is unlikely.

 

May be, maybe not. In my view only the Ayyads (a hybrid between AesSedai and WiseOnes) could matter. But you could be right. Please give me some info. about sharan army else than:

1). They apparently were able to weather through the Trolloc Wars. 2). The defeated the army sent by Artur Hawkwing, an army of hundred thousands. 3). By it's size (larger than the Westlands), it should support a population of hundreds of thousands of able bodied men for its armies.

 

This topic is about DEMANDRED not Shara! :-[ :-X :-[

We're speculating about his whereabouts (practically the only thing we don't know about him).

[WolfTwins]

LoC, ch.6

"Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies." (Sammael)

"The Ayyad, as they call themselves, live in their own small towns, avoiding everyone else, and supposedly never channel without permission or orders from the Sh'botay or Sh'boan. In fact, they are the real power, and the reason the Sh'botay and Sh'boan only rule seven years.Yes, a fascinating land. Too far from the center to be of any use for many years, of course.There will be plenty of time to see what can be made of it after the Day of Return." (Graendal)

TGS, Prologue

Demandred liked having armies to command, but there were none left moving in the world. Save perhaps for those Borderlanders. Could he have managed to infiltrate them? That certainly would have been a coup. But surely she'd have heard something; she (Graendal) had spies in that camp.

"My rule is secure," Demandred said simply. "I gather for war. We will be ready."

Graendal ... Demandred apparently held a throne and had armies. Which were gathered. The Borderlanders marching through the east seemed more and more likely.

 

I surrender! Only contradictions and suppositions!

[Sharaman]

That Graendal- Sammael convo is one reason why I doubt Demandred is in Shara. She's fooled around there in order to try and misdirect Sammy. But if she had found signs of another Chosen in Shara, her PoV would have been different. Ergo, Demandred isn't in Shara. The Borderlands and Murandy seem like the most obvious places with Seanchan being another possibility except that Semirhage was already entrenched in there.

[mossman87]

That Graendal- Sammael convo is one reason why I doubt Demandred is in Shara. She's fooled around there in order to try and misdirect Sammy. But if she had found signs of another Chosen in Shara, her PoV would have been different. Ergo, Demandred isn't in Shara. The Borderlands and Murandy seem like the most obvious places with Seanchan being another possibility except that Semirhage was already entrenched in there.

 

Just to play devil's advocate, Graendal isn't omniscient, and barely considers Shara worth any thought at all, it wouldn't be surprising that she didn't notice because she didn't care, and wasn't there for long.

 

And besides, the Sh'botay holds no real power anyway, Dem wouldn't waste time with em.  Now I'd say you would be right if we had any proof Graendal was in deep with the Ayyad as well, but I don't believe there's any hint of that.

 

We've been shown numerous times that the Forsaken don't know as much as they think they do, and are wrong just as much.

[Sharaman]

Graendal would have had to gate in and bypass the Ayyad channelers who surround the two she kidnapped. That means, knowing Graendal's methods, she was applying compulsion to somebody close to the power centre. If Demandred was there and operating through proxies, he would have already done similar things, such as applied compulsion to somebody close to the power centre. Graendal may have picked up the signs of meddling in setting up her snatch (not necessarily the compulsion itself due to the Saidin-Saidar factor). Then again, as you say, she may not have. But everything we've seen about her, suggests she is a careful planner who likes setting up a spy ring etc, before stepping into action. Given the apparent dominance of channelers in Shara and hence, the potential dangers of wandering around, no reason why she would step out of character in her planning.

It's not in itself a strong signal. But Graendal's POV here coupled to the fact that Shara has not really featured in the plot elsewhere, it makes it a little likelier that it's not Demandred's safe house.

 

I think FWIW that you have to work out Dem's base by elimination; he's operating somewhere the other Chosen were/are not.

We don't know where Lanfear was based but wecan eliminate the WT, BT, Caemlyn, Ilian, Tear, Salidar, Tarabon, Arad Doman, Seanchan, etc. Shara and Mad-Land sound too out of the way.

 

That leaves the Borderlands (whose rulers have been behaving weirdly for no apparent reason) and Murandy whose ruler has suddenly changed from being an useless fop to being a smart player (hiring the Band as a stalking horse, reading Mat's books). A third possibility is the CotL but they're too small and too marginal and now, too broken for him to be Asunawa/ Galad's controller and say he's ready.

 

[mossman87]

Graendal would have had to gate in and bypass the Ayyad channelers who surround the two she kidnapped. That means, knowing Graendal's methods, she was applying compulsion to somebody close to the power centre. If Demandred was there and operating through proxies, he would have already done similar things, such as applied compulsion to somebody close to the power centre. Graendal may have picked up the signs of meddling in setting up her snatch (not necessarily the compulsion itself due to the Saidin-Saidar factor). Then again, as you say, she may not have. But everything we've seen about her, suggests she is a careful planner who likes setting up a spy ring etc, before stepping into action. Given the apparent dominance of channelers in Shara and hence, the potential dangers of wandering around, no reason why she would step out of character in her planning.

It's not in itself a strong signal. But Graendal's POV here coupled to the fact that Shara has not really featured in the plot elsewhere, it makes it a little likelier that it's not Demandred's safe house.

 

I think FWIW that you have to work out Dem's base by elimination; he's operating somewhere the other Chosen were/are not.

We don't know where Lanfear was based but wecan eliminate the WT, BT, Caemlyn, Ilian, Tear, Salidar, Tarabon, Arad Doman, Seanchan, etc. Shara and Mad-Land sound too out of the way.

 

That leaves the Borderlands (whose rulers have been behaving weirdly for no apparent reason) and Murandy whose ruler has suddenly changed from being an useless fop to being a smart player (hiring the Band as a stalking horse, reading Mat's books). A third possibility is the CotL but they're too small and too marginal and now, too broken for him to be Asunawa/ Galad's controller and say he's ready.

 

 

For me logically he's with the Borderlanders, but that leaves us wondering where he was in the earlier books, especially in Lord of Chaos where he was "letting the Lord of Chaos rule." and pleased the DO at the end of it, yet I don't recall any Borderlander issues at that time... could be wrong, since I seem to remember the rumors of trouble in the Borderlands started pretty early.

 

What we really need to do is analyze LOC and see where chaos is spread, and discuss it from there.

 

Just everything points to the Black Tower as at least one place for me (I think Dem has a hand in many threads), especially Mesaana and Demandred being allies and the LOC ending with Mesaana's Aes Sedai and Taim's Black Tower meeting up, and the massive amount of chaos that resulted from Dumai's Wells.

 

Hell, maybe Demandred has been with the Borderlands this whole time and he sent Bashere to Rand, or else had his wife send him so Demandred could get him out of the picture.

 

Sorry if I'm rambling it's 3am O_O

[logannagol]

What if the secret to Demandred's whereabouts is the unnoticed thing from books 4-6. What if the clue is some random offhand comment from those books about strange events, or a remark about an as yet unmet character who just happens to be Demandred. This probably isn't to helpful but its late and my mind wanders. I do think though that Demandred is somewhere on the mainland and not off in Shara or Seanchan, because I think RJ has been building him up for a reason, probably a very nasty backstab in the final stages of the story. I'm thinking a nasty shock that hits you in the face and you go, how did I not see that coming?

[JakeBarnes]

 

For me logically he's with the Borderlanders, but that leaves us wondering where he was in the earlier books, especially in Lord of Chaos where he was "letting the Lord of Chaos rule." and pleased the DO at the end of it, yet I don't recall any Borderlander issues at that time... could be wrong, since I seem to remember the rumors of trouble in the Borderlands started pretty early.

 

 

That is really the only thing we do know about Demandred.  Somewhere within the LOC timeline he pleased the Great Lord, enough so that he is still earning special treatment as of TGS.

 

Also, I think that when the DO asked Demandred about using balefire, it was more of a 'Would you unleash balefire in MY service?' Just before asking Dem to use balefire, he had mentioned that someone was balefiring chosen and that even the DO couldn't bring them back after that. Maybe Dem's big task has been to balefire the stuffing out of the light's champions.  In TAR maybe. 

 

With the information we have now, I think it's likely that Dem has his hand in several cookie jars, including the BT and the Borderlands. 

[WolfDragonFox]

Oh man I really am starting to take that Borderland theory to heart more than I was.  It would serve so well and would be a great story plot in my opinion if the Bashere working for Demandred theory is actually correct.  I mean what if none of this crap with the Bashere family is a coincidence and they are all working for the great Demandred.  Faile sure is quick to kill some folks just look out how she straight executed Masema. Yes he deserved it and all but what if we are looking at that wrong and she was just taking out a fellow proxy that was no longer useful so Demandred said kill that guy.  So you the most trusted persons in a fashion to 2 of the 3 ta'varen leaving Mat as the odd man out without DF's  in his good graces unless we count Noal who is not a DF willingly but totally got mindraped by Ishy.  So if that holds that somehow Noal is Jain (which seems obvious) all 3 have a close proxy to them.  This theory of course entails that Faile, Davrem, and Noal are all Forsaken proxies which is damn brilliant.  I don't doubt that Faile loves Perrin or that Davrem respects all Rand has been through but you can do that and still be evil when the order comes down.  WOW I almost hope I am right.  I have a feeling the Daveram Bashere being a proxy is the best true possibility which leads me to believe that he is lying in saying that he pledged to Rand without consent from Tenobia, which would make Tenobia the ruler Demandred controls, and therefore the entire borderlander army, via Saldea is where Demandred is.  Which means he is one of them close enough to be in probably Tenobia's ear.  The rest of the army I don't believe are DF's but just people following the leader.  Sorry this is so lengthy but I just started and couldn't stop till it was all out of me. 

 

Please proceed in tearing this apart if you want but this is what i'm contemplating now.  I

 

t just seems so perfect that one of the great Generals of Randland is a DF, what better place then rands personal head general.  Maybe all those respectful looks of surprise and approval at Mats strategies weren't just admiration and respect, but worried surprise that this Mat kid is a damn good general himself and much closer to the Dragon then me...hmm he may be a problem.  I'm way too excited writing this...lol