Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[maradon]

I also think that Maseema was manipulated by Demandred, which would fulfill the quote of "activities in the south have Demandreds marks all over them". However in tGS when Greandal gets to see the meeting with Dem and Mesaana Dem says;

 

"My rule is secure. I gather for war. We will be ready."

 

Considering Maseema was killed by Faile and it is likely that Perrin will gather in the rest of Maseemas dragonsworn, this implies that he must have a power base somewhere, one where he is still recruiting / organising armies for the TG. So what options do we have,

• The Borderlander Army
  
• Murandy (Lugard)
  
• Seanchan
  
• Shara
  
• The Legion of the Dragon
  
• The Black Tower
  

Borderlander Army; It is not gaining numbers so how would he be gathering for war?, however there is no chance of channeling which would be useful for capturing Rand. Personally there is a better chance of Fain being involved.

Murandy; A good possibility, recently stabalised, we haven't met Roedran so it could be Demandred. However it is unlikely that Demandred would pick such a small nation, also I can't see an army with so many normal folk actually fighting for the shadow.

Seanchan; Personally this is the least likely as it has only just been thrown into chaos in the last three books, how would Demandred secure a rule and build an army in such a short time?

Shara; This would be a good scalp for the dark (it was also my favourite theory for a long time). However Sharan's remember the trolloc wars, although they don't admit that anything happened to outsiders. Their secretive ways would help them to be manipulated, they were also in chaos early on in the series. Although enough time may have passed for them to be used by Demandred.

The Legion of the Dragon; The only problem that I can see with this is that we have seen the Legion in action in Altara / Illian so would Demandred have been in the battle?

The Black Tower; Every member of the Black tower could be turned to the shadow, something that can't be done with a normal nation. Rand has been paying no attention to it and we know for a fact that Taim is a Darkfriend, along with his personal Asha'man (I think the number had reached almost 50 the last time we saw).

 

Personally my favourite of all is the use of Taim as a proxy in the Black Tower. This would also have made the Semirhage, Mesaana, Demandred alliance very powerful in Randland. Anyway, I don't know how we are going to resolve this until the book comes out that shows us, for definite, where chuckles is.

[Sharaman]

Looks like Demandred is the default solution for everything weird in Randland.

1) Borderlanders - Demandred is responsible

2) BT shenanigans - Demandred again

3) The quiet blight - Demandred

4) Roedran - Murandy - Demandred

5) Shara + Land of the Madmen - Demandred

6) Events in the South - wherever Sammy may have defined as South and whatever events he was referring to - Demandred

7) Potential player in Post Semi Seanchan - Demandred again

Amazing work rate Den's managed to generate.  He's the Chosen who never sleeps, with branch offices in every population centre!

 

 

 

[mossman87]

Looks like Demandred is the default solution for everything weird in Randland.

1) Borderlanders - Demandred is responsible

2) BT shenanigans - Demandred again

3) The quiet blight - Demandred

4) Roedran - Murandy - Demandred

5) Shara + Land of the Madmen - Demandred

6) Events in the South - wherever Sammy may have defined as South and whatever events he was referring to - Demandred

7) Potential player in Post Semi Seanchan - Demandred again

Amazing work rate Den's managed to generate.  He's the Chosen who never sleeps, with branch offices in every population centre!

Haha tell me about it.

 

We'll just never know til we're told, but speculation is always fun.

 

 

[sty remby]

If Demandred is the Lord of Chaos, chances are he'd be quite capable of doing so on a rather large scale. What's the problem with having him responsible for Black Tower DFs (through Taim); civil war in Shara (he can presumably Travel like everyone else); etc. - you name it, he's probably got a finger in it.

Other than the Borderlanders - I don't see a multi-national force that has been responsible for centuries for the safety of the entire rest of the world, suddenly turning Darkfriend on everyone. With comments made from Tuon's point-of-view in TGS it seems pretty obvious that whatever happened in Rand-land vis a vie society reverting back to some kind of dark age, did NOT occur in Seanchan. The Seanchan, being the descendants of Hawkwing, are in fact the true culture of that time kept alive, and at its height of power. Thus the comment about everyone on the Rand-land side of the Aryth Ocean having forgotten who they are and what they were responsible for.

And I think the only exception to this is the Borderlanders, who have never shirked that duty, and are now very eager to come to the Dragon Reborn and convince him to submit to the Seanchan. Ha! This could also be the whole North with the East thing (Seanchan being very far to the East).

But I don't see them being part of Demandred's plans.

[Sharaman]

I'd say the Borderlanders are actually the blokes he's most likely to be involved with. Dem is a soldier and he'd be interested in rendering the best organised fighting force that is in direct opposition to the Shadow ineffective. (The So-Called Aiel none of the Chosen knew a great deal about)Any attack South of the Blight is likely to come West of the Spine if only because of logistics. Trollocs can't eat or drink sand, which makes the Waste unattractive as campaign territory. 

Seanchan is very, very, far to the East indeed because it's actually a great distance to the West. It's also got a culture that is an extremely perverted version of Hawkwing's time because it leashes channellers, keeps slaves in general and has very nasty caste systems. None of these seem to have been prevalent in Hawkwing's time in Randland.

Picture Dem's daily bulletin to GLoD: "Today GLoD, I held audience in Murandy. Then I rushed off to review my troops and channelers in Shara. After that, I renewed the compulsion on the Borderlanders. Then I gave Taim a rocket because he's falling behind on his AS bonding quota. After that, I managed to make it for High Tea with Moridin and Halima. Then I shot off again and tickled the chin of some local Seanchan Lordlings who are attempting to seize the Crystal Throne. Oops, that was actually yesterday. I've mixed up my time zones and got a spot of jet lag. Still, have I not done well?"

 

 

[maradon]

I'm still not entirely sure who the Lord of Chaos is. Is it Rand, Moridin, Demandred or the Dark One himself? I've never realy thought it was Rand or the Dark One, but I can never decide between Ishamael and Demandred. Unless I am being incredibly dense and it's Demandreds nickname, sort of like Rand is the Lord of the Morning, Ishy is The Betrayer of Hope and Lanfear is the Daughter of the Night. Anyway if anyone knows I'd appreciate being enlightend :)

[mockeryjones]

One simple question - Why Far Madding?

Seriously if Demandred is lurking in Far madding it is the most ridiculous move since Sammaels "lets fight in the city that contains the evil shadow-hating monster - betcha I'll win cos I have a trap set up." strategy. All the evidence we have been shown so far points to Demandred wanting to kill Rand himself in a fair fight to prove which one of them is better.

 

The Far Madding thing suggests Demandred thinks that the only way he can beat Rand is if he faces him when neither can draw on the power, he has an army of 200,000 people ready to help him and Rand only has one arm. I know that people have posted other reasons he may have subverted the borderland army but seriously does anyone think Demandred is going to be able to trick 200,000 soldiers to fight with the Trollocs rather than against them?

 

........

 

Something has made them doubt Rand. They feel that they have to prevent him channeling at the meeting for some reason. But why? I've already said I don't think Demandred is there because it doesn't fit his character (and because Rand actually pondered that he was there, a sure sign he is NOT) so who has made the generals crazy with Rand fear since the last few books.

 

 

I'm beginning to think the borderlanders wanting rand to meet with them in far madding has nothing to do with demandred controlling them, but rather their fear of rand being controlled by ashaman converted (or previously sworn to) the shadow.  I think they know something about more than we have previously been allowed to see about how mazrim taim escaped captivity (and perhaps bashere's role in that escape) and want rand to come to far madding so that he can be isolated from the shadow tainted ashaman controlled by taim.

 

 

 

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Man I just don't know anymore, hell I never did, none of us really know.  I'm so far out on the limb of theories I remembered when I believe it was Moggy talking about traveling to other worlds, not just other countries (please correct me if i'm wrong on who this was)  So Demandred could be on Earth or some other world gathering an army of darkfriends to invade.  Now I don't think this is the case but this is my grand way of saying any of the theories is possible in some form or another.  I largely agree that his biggest impact has been world wide, as i am inclinded to agree he is the one causing everything to go nuts such as the Black Tower and Masema and I agree of the alliance of he Semmi and Messi that he was the big cheeze sending them to their respective posts in Seanchan and the White Tower.  Man I can't wait for the next book.

[maradon]

I think it would be the ultimate plot line from RJ to have us trying to decide on the one place where Demandred has been only to find out that he was actually working his a** off in a load of different places! I wouldn't put it past him at least.

[Crael123]

The only problem with the Lugurd theory is where is the army demondred said was ready? they are in like a 50 sided civil war arent they? there is no army there that is ready, and i doubt its the Band.

[Rand Skywalker]

I'm still not entirely sure who the Lord of Chaos is. Is it Rand, Moridin, Demandred or the Dark One himself? I've never realy thought it was Rand or the Dark One, but I can never decide between Ishamael and Demandred. Unless I am being incredibly dense and it's Demandreds nickname, sort of like Rand is the Lord of the Morning, Ishy is The Betrayer of Hope and Lanfear is the Daughter of the Night. Anyway if anyone knows I'd appreciate being enlightend :)

 

The most common belief about the "Lord of Chaos" is that it's just an expression.  "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" might as well be "cause a lot of mayhem."  The "Lord" is not referring to any one person (although, for a long time I assumed it was Rand.

 

I'm still most suspicious of D being w/ the Borderlanders, although that doesn't explain the bookending of Demandred in book 6, and the portentous "Did I not do well?"

 

 

 

 

[mossman87]

The only problem with the Lugurd theory is where is the army demondred said was ready? they are in like a 50 sided civil war arent they? there is no army there that is ready, and i doubt its the Band.

 

Nah, the King has consolidated his rule.

 

I still don't think it's Dem, but who knows, it's a very strategic position.  Being a small country means nothing when it's right in the middle of everything.

[Al Jenn Mael]

And I think the only exception to this is the Borderlanders, who have never shirked that duty, and are now very eager to come to the Dragon Reborn and convince him to submit to the Seanchan. Ha! This could also be the whole North with the East thing (Seanchan being very far to the East).

But I don't see them being part of Demandred's plans.

 

Seanchan is far to the east? Someone please explain that. Unless this world is spherical...

[Nargsmart]

Seanchan is far to the east? Someone please explain that. Unless this world is spherical...

 

Yes, it is indeed spherical. 

[Morsmordre]

There is one particular thing that bothers me and I haven't seen so far anyone mention it:

The DO asks Demandred if he's going to use balefire for him. I haven't seen in any of the books an event concerning this Forsaken and balefire. Yes, Rahvin used it. Moridin used it in Shadar Logoth. Moghedien used it to kill Nynaeve. But Demandred..? Any thoughts?

 

Also, I accept the point on Fain. Yes, it would be difficult for him to infiltrate the Borderlanders if they already knew that he is a Darkfriend. But what if he looks differently from what he was when he was in Shienar? I suspect that the merge changed him not only phychologically but also physically.

 

I like to think that Demandred is the Lord of Chaos. Yes 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' is a phrase, but the name itself reminds quite a lot of Ishy, Lanfear and the others that were mentioned in the previous post. I suspect that Demandred is the Lord of Chaos. He is known for his alibities in warfare. I wonder if Demandred is good at the game of stones as much as Bryne and Thom :) Perhaps he is. I have always thought that Thom is so good at the game because he is such a good plotter. Perhaps the same could be said for Demandred as well.

[mike-cook]

I'm still not entirely sure who the Lord of Chaos is. Is it Rand, Moridin, Demandred or the Dark One himself? I've never realy thought it was Rand or the Dark One, but I can never decide between Ishamael and Demandred. Unless I am being incredibly dense and it's Demandreds nickname, sort of like Rand is the Lord of the Morning, Ishy is The Betrayer of Hope and Lanfear is the Daughter of the Night. Anyway if anyone knows I'd appreciate being enlightend :)

 

The most common belief about the "Lord of Chaos" is that it's just an expression.  "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" might as well be "cause a lot of mayhem."  The "Lord" is not referring to any one person (although, for a long time I assumed it was Rand.

 

I'm still most suspicious of D being w/ the Borderlanders, although that doesn't explain the bookending of Demandred in book 6, and the portentous "Did I not do well?"

 

 

The book ended with "did i not do well?" because Demandred is controlling Taim at the black tower. So messana had her hand in kidnapping Rand and then Demandred gives the Ok for Taim to rescue Rand and that causes so much chaos between Rand and the white tower. I mean its brilliant now Rand will never trust Aes Sedai. and since the ending of lor dof chaos Rand has definitely gone down hill emotionally.

 

 

[Sentinel78]

I never really took Demandred in Murandy too seriously, Murandy just didn't seem relevant enough.  However, it DOES fit in a lot of ways.  I've enumerated a list here... I know this has been discussed to some extent elsewhere, but I try to tie other things in:

 

(1) Roedran is said to be dissolute and pretty much worthless, yet surprises everyone with a daring plan that seems to have been pulled off pretty well in uniting Murandy.

(2) Roedran is certainly gathering in a pretty big army.  From Chpt 9 of Winter's Heart: 

In Lugard, King Roedran was gathering every noble who would bring armsmen

(3) Murandy is closely related to Andor, and Demandred appears to be closely following events in Andor (he spied on Elayne in her throne-room) and the Black Tower (this has been discussed to death).  Also, Elayne caught a spy of Roedran's in her palace.

(4) The Seanchan have made some alliance with some powerful king.  This could be an agreement between Roedran and the Seanchan.  We know Seanchan are moving very large forces towards Murandy.  Tuon was very intent in burning Mat's map that showed their troop movements.  People were thinking Illian, but could be towards Murandy to unite with Roedran.  From Crossroads of Twilight:

 

“It seems Suroth might have made an alliance with some king,” Juilin reported with a smile over a cup of mulled wine. At least Thera seemed to be making him smile more. She huddled beside Juilin’s stool in their cramped tent, her head lying on his lap, and he stroked her hair softly with his free hand. “At least, there’s considerable talk of some powerful new ally. And those settlers are all frightened out of their wits by Aiel.”

 

(5) Roedran gives Talmanes Comadrin's book and Talmanes says Roedran thinks it will make him a great general.  If you were a great general from a different Age that used totally different weaponry, wouldn't you be educating yourself with the warfare tactics of the current Age?  This is consistent with what Demandred would likely be doing in preparing for TG. 

 

(6) "My rule is secure", "I gather for war".  By Book 12, Roedran clearly has control over Murandy.

 

(7) Suroth makes an agreement with some "powerful king" as noted above -- perhaps Roedran.  Separately, Suroth has dealings with Masema.  Masema is also ordered by 'Rand' to kill Perrin.  This 'Rand' was probably Demandred, since this occurs right after Moridin orders Demandred to kill Mat and Perrin.  If Demandred was following Masema/Perrin that closely, he likely ordered Suroth to communicate with Masema the way she did and was behind that.  Ok, as I type this I think this might be too big of a stretch to tie back to Roedran :)

[mossman87]

I keep it open to the possibility.. just because it's small you can still fit in millions of Shadowspawn and such there, and it's right in the middle of a lot of important places.

Also it's a genius place to take because it has been so irrelevant that people overlook it so much, just like we do.

 

Your list is also spot on Sentinel.

 

That said, it could be anyone.  It could even be good, but where's the fun in that? :)

[lsm]

i'm still thinking demandred is in murandy.. 'my rule is secure' and murandy was just (apparently) fixed up nice with the help of the band. mat will certainly be angry about that possibly giving us some comical scene at the very least. but the thing with murandy, while it's easy to say it has a good tactical spot, otoh it is also completely surrounded

 

second on the rule is secure is shara. like others have pointed out, shara can be like a lord of the rings of those exoctic southern armies arriving with very little detail about their culture. humans and animals can travel

 

third would be the black tower. in KOD taim has about 100? in his palace all laughing at the lord of chaos 'old saying'? who knows how many more have been converted, and ashaman are being sent all over the blight border (well at least saldea for sure). a lot of ashaman is easily the equivalent of large armies from what we've seen them able to do in battle

 

last is borderlanders. the only reason i even consider these is from some post i read a while back that quoted passages from the book, that along with the poster, kinda maybe sorta made it look like the borderlander rulers might of been under compulsion. but like murandy, far madding..it's surrounded

 

but then again with travel it doesnt matter where troops are being gathered, position wont mean much until it's time to fight anyway right

[mossman87]

i'm still thinking demandred is in murandy.. 'my rule is secure' and murandy was just (apparently) fixed up nice with the help of the band. mat will certainly be angry about that possibly giving us some comical scene at the very least. but the thing with murandy, while it's easy to say it has a good tactical spot, otoh it is also completely surrounded

 

second on the rule is secure is shara. like others have pointed out, shara can be like a lord of the rings of those exoctic southern armies arriving with very little detail about their culture. humans and animals can travel

 

third would be the black tower. in KOD taim has about 100? in his palace all laughing at the lord of chaos 'old saying'? who knows how many more have been converted, and ashaman are being sent all over the blight border (well at least saldea for sure). a lot of ashaman is easily the equivalent of large armies from what we've seen them able to do in battle

 

last is borderlanders. the only reason i even consider these is from some post i read a while back that quoted passages from the book, that along with the poster, kinda maybe sorta made it look like the borderlander rulers might of been under compulsion. but like murandy, far madding..it's surrounded

 

but then again with travel it doesnt matter where troops are being gathered, position wont mean much until it's time to fight anyway right

 

I know I was one of the people that said Shara, citing the LOTR parallels.. definitely possible.  I think the dark has gone through this too many times to ignore a whole country with a ton of channelers, it'd be stupid not to manipulate them.

 

I think by analyzing the alliance Demandred had with Semirhage and still has with Mesaana it might help things.  With Demandred bookending LOC, and yet no mention of Murandy (I don't know this exactly for sure, anyone know?) he would have to be involved in much more than just Murandy.  Logically, the Black Tower makes sense, because of the Black Tower and Tower Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells, which totally destroyed Rand trusting any AS, and so much BT stuff in LOC.

 

But then we have this quote:

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030112090827/http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/2003-01-07.aspx

Audience: How did Taim track Rand down for the battle of Dumai’s Wells?

Robert Jordan: That ones easy, son! C’mon. At that point, Taim was trying to find him like the devil. He knew pretty much what had happened from the beginning. Things were happening. The Aes Sedai disappeared from Cairhien. Perrin disappeared. Rand disappeared. Taim had an idea that something very bad was going on, and when you can Travel it becomes easier to start tracking out where did these Aes Sedai go and Bingo, we got something very bad going on down here, and I’m gonna come and tear the house down. It’s very easy.

 

I always took the Dumai's Wells incident as evidence Demandred and Mesaana planned this, but if we take this quote for fact then that's wrong.  Now that brings up if RJ was just lying to us, and I don't want to open that can of worms.

 

But knowing RJ's way with words, Taim's "Idea that something very bad going on" could have been Demandred whispering in his proxy's ear.

[Sharaman]

but then again with travel it doesnt matter where troops are being gathered, position wont mean much until it's time to fight anyway right

Think of the logistics - discussed by Grady and worked out by Balwer in TGS. To move x no of men / hour requires n number of channelers of a certain strength. If you don't have that many channelers at hand, you can't really travel with the freedom required to say you'll relocate from anywhere to anywhere else with 100% efficiency.

Also your channelers need to know the place they're travelling from. Else they'll have to skim, which is actually not just slower, it's more difficult to transport large numbers ( vide RaT's raid on the Caemlyn Palace). 

[Sab]

I doubt Shara, there are no signs they are going to play any roll in the fight.  Stealing their rulers put them in enough chaos to pretty much ensure they won't be much help.  Murandy would be the perfect place for him, gather an army, and can keep a low profile.

[Sentinel78]

Also your channelers need to know the place they're travelling from. Else they'll have to skim, which is actually not just slower, it's more difficult to transport large numbers ( vide RaT's raid on the Caemlyn Palace).

 

That was true until Rand's (or LTT's) trick of making a nearby gateway simply to learn the short-hop destination, after which you can make a gateway anywhere.  That was how he got to Far Madding with Nynaeve/Hurin and almost nuked the Borderlanders.

[Sharaman]

We don't know that other channelers have figured out that LTT trick wrt Travel. And the logistics problem remains. You need n channelers of a certain strength to move x guys in a given time. Sure Travel helps but you also need the channelers in sufficient nos. For comparison, Rand offers 100 Ashaman to Ituralde to handle an army of 50,000.

So location does matter.

 

 

 

[Crael123]

I doubt Shara, there are no signs they are going to play any roll in the fight.  Stealing their rulers put them in enough chaos to pretty much ensure they won't be much help.  Murandy would be the perfect place for him, gather an army, and can keep a low profile.

 

hes not in shara. the rule is not even SLIGHTLY secured, and they are in a massive civil war last time we saw them. and he would have no army.

 

i was doubting on the murandy theory but then.... well it makes sense