Herid Fel

[jo]

I'm newer here so I don't know if this has already been gone over (probably has and I missed it) so don't flame me for asking please.

 

What did Herid Fel find out that got him killed?

[Luckers]

We don't know.

[AcE]

We don't exactly know, however the last thing Rand asked him was if he could see any reason to break the remaining seals

 

the only critpic answer was something like 'Must clear the rubble before you can rebuild' (dont have my books with me atm)

 

We can assume he was on to something however, and killed for it

[Colmana]

for a moment there, i had no idea who Herid Fel was, but i remember now :oops:

 

the fact he was killed, which was a shock, must of been over something big, since a gholam(??) was what killed him

[cannon]

the only critpic answer was something like 'Must clear the rubble before you can rebuild' (dont have my books with me atm)

 

My assumption as soon as I read that was that they killed him before he could fully explain himself.

 

My guess is that you have to break the seals on the DO's prison before you can seal it correctly. It completely goes against everyone's general assumptions, so it's probably what needs to happen. That's what Fel was trying to communicate and why he was killed.

[DaShain]

Makes sense, given his earlier musings that, once the Age of Legends rolls around again, the DO's prison has to be completely remade. With the seals still there, it'd probably be impossible to fix the Bore like it had never been made. Only by opening it up completely and then sealing it over will it be strong enough, seems like Fel is saying.

[Ashanderei]

My guess is that Min will find out that Rand has to break the remaining seals to be able to re-seal the Bore from one of Fel's books that she's always reading. A scrawled note or something of that nature down the side of one of the pages is most likely.

[shad]

Having to break the seals would also fit in with one of Egwene's dreams about Rand.

 

Him walking toward a burning mountain, something crunching beneath his boots. She stirred and whimpered; the crunching things were the seals on the Dark One's prison, shattering with his every step.

 

-Lord Of Chaos, A Pile of Sand

 

Of course the dream doesn't neccessarily have to mean thats what he's supposed to do.. just what he is going to do.

[AcE]

My assumption as soon as I read that was that they killed him before he could fully explain himself.

 

My guess is that you have to break the seals on the DO's prison before you can seal it correctly. It completely goes against everyone's general assumptions' date=' so it's probably what needs to happen. That's what Fel was trying to communicate and why he was killed.[/quote']

 

Yup, i agree :)

[Barnabas]

i also think Cadsuane's tapestry fits with the idea. dont remember exact quote, but shes stitched the hand holding the seal with cracks through it and sge says something like "you couldnt tell if he was holding it together or breaking it apart, but she knew what she meant it to be" and everytime ive read that ive thought, breaking apart. so i reckon it fits with what Fel was going to say

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

In LTT's rant about the seal Taim gave him in LOC, he says "Must break it now, strike fast."

 

He probably knows something. Not much long after (possibly even before), Demandred goes into the pit and thinks about how every time he comes the hole in the bore is "still sealed, but somehow larger, wider with each visit." Or close to that.

 

Which means, the more time Rand wastes trying to get everything together, the more powerful the DO will be when the seals break. And Herid knows that the seals will absolutely have to go. Although, I'm sure that Rand already knows this, after all, Herid already told him.

 

So either the gholam killed Herid too late, or he found something else out. Possibly on how to actually reseal the bore correctly, or something else. It's even possible that the gholam was following Moridin, who as Ishamael used to be a philosopher, so maybe he got a little jealous.

[shad]

also think Cadsuane's tapestry fits with the idea. dont remember exact quote, but shes stitched the hand holding the seal with cracks through it and sge says something like "you couldnt tell if he was holding it together or breaking it apart, but she knew what she meant it to be" and everytime ive read that ive thought, breaking apart. so i reckon it fits with what Fel was going to say

 

Here's the actual quote from the book..

 

"The major image on her piece of embroidery was finished, a man's hand clutching the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai. Cracks ran across the black-and-white disc, and there was no telling whether the hand was trying to hold it together or crush it. She knew what she intended, but time would tell what was truth."

 

The Path of Daggers, New Alliances

[Lopar]

I believe there will be more to this event than just breaking the seals. In previous conversations Rand and Herid Fel speak about the Age of Legends and the nature of the prison and the bore.

 

I feel that Rand may need to destroy the entire prison surrounding the Dark One and reconstruct the Creator's boreless original work. Hence Herid's "clear the rubble" comments.

 

This way there will be a complete and unmolested prison for Beidomon and Mierin to discover when the wheel turns again to the AoL.

[rochaid]

but lews therin does say that in his pride they thought they could repair what the creator hade made,which in a way they did,but there was the slight problem of the taint from the backlash.

 

so its unlikely rand can make a whole new prison,choedon kal or not

[Aemon raHal]

Rochaid:

but lews therin does say that in his pride they thought they could repair what the creator hade made,which in a way they did,but there was the slight problem of the taint from the backlash.

 

so its unlikely rand can make a whole new prison,choedon kal or not

 

But LTT only patched over the bore... Using only Saidin.

 

Using both Saidin and Saidir, they'd be able to re-seal the bore much better than LTT did, or perhaps create a new prison.

 

But yeah, then there's the backlash threat.

 

Who knows.

[rochaid]

they would be able to repair it better,i'm aware of that,even completely resealing it.

 

but i doubt the capibility of anyone creating a whole new bore type prison.

 

but as u said,who knows?

[Trib4l]

Maybe we'll see more EotW disembodied voice action taking place in this one.

[alEykamp]

Lopar:

I believe there will be more to this event than just breaking the seals. In previous conversations Rand and Herid Fel speak about the Age of Legends and the nature of the prison and the bore.

 

I feel that Rand may need to destroy the entire prison surrounding the Dark One and reconstruct the Creator's boreless original work. Hence Herid's "clear the rubble" comments.

 

This way there will be a complete and unmolested prison for Beidomon and Mierin to discover when the wheel turns again to the AoL.

 

 

I think Lopar is right on the money. Does anyone have any evidence that Jordan means to destroy the wheel entirely? I seem to recall that Ishamael had plans to "destroy the wheel" (EotW). When I read the passage that Lopar references (LoC?), I had the impression that Rand and Fel were coming to realize the fallacy of repeating history, and perhaps trying to reason a way out of dooming future civilizations to have to repeat the trials and tribulations of their ancestors.

 

In other words, perhaps Jordan has plans to convert the "wheel of time" into the "straight line" of time, thus permitting future generations of Rand-landers the opportunity to write their own destinies.

 

Or not.

 

Anyone?

[rochaid]

its not really fallecy when no-body knows what going to happen.

 

and rand i'm pretty sure does not have the power to remake the wheel of time into a straight line.

only the creator would have that power,and since he made the wheel its unlikely that he would do that.

 

also the wheel allows changes in the pattern up to a certain extent,thus they can write their own destinies,to a realistic degree.

[Lopar]

I have defiantly mused over the possibility that the true "Last Battle" (I believe this struggle could very well be the last) will spell the end of the cyclical nature of Time in the randland universe.

 

We know that the Dark One needs to destroy the Wheel of Time and recreate the universe in his image. This results in a linear time system where he can rule forever. It is the only way for him to be free. If he is imprisoned in one Age he is imprisoned in them all...

 

Rand may not have to break the Wheel himself. The Dark One could very well be successful at accomplishing this task and the Last Battle is Rand's attempt to save this new linear future from the Dark One's eternal corruption.

 

Anyway, as far as what Rand can or can not do; I don’t believe we can really say. He manages to cleanse Saidin, he is able to cut off Forsaken from the Dark One’s protection, a circle of thirteen using the Bowl of the Winds is able to right the weather, and Meirin & Beidomon breach the Creator’s prison around the Dark One. These are just a few examples of mortals in randland unmaking constructs of both the Creator and the Dark One.

 

So can Rand completely destroy and recreate the Dark One’s prison? Can he stop the Wheel of Time? We don’t know but there is nothing in the books that specifically says he can’t.

[rochaid]

i don't think rand could save the world from eternal destruction if the wheel was broken and existence turned linear.without the wheel there would be no pattern,no way to ensure that good balances evil.ta'veren could not be born to save the world from destruction.i think without the threads to guide there would be chaos.

 

and since the source pushes the wheel i doubt he can actually stop it from moving

 

u might be right,but i just think that its HIGHLY unlikely

[alEykamp]

Lopar:

I have defiantly mused over the possibility that the true "Last Battle" (I believe this struggle could very well be the last) will spell the end of the cyclical nature of Time in the randland universe.

 

I agree. I've always thought "last" means "last" -- not, "the last one for a reallylong time."

 

If it is to be the "last" battle, perhaps defeating the DO simply reshapes the nature of the wheel. In other words, Rand needn't break the wheel if he can actually kill the DO. With the DO dead...well, good times.

 

By comparison, it probably is necessary for the DO to actually break the wheel in order to reshape the universe in his image. Otherwise he'd be doomed to wait for Meirin & Beidomon to hurry up and get spun out of the pattern.

 

If Rand can't kill the DO, I suppose he could seal the DO away and then break the wheel in the hope that no future Meirin & Beidomon come along and start nosing around, but that seems like a pretty risky thing to do for no garuntees. Rochaid brings up a good point -- what would happen to the pattern with a broken wheel?

[Lews Therin Telamon]

I reckon that Rand needs to break the seals in order for the Dark One to be "fightable."

 

Ive heard theroies that the Dark One will use either Shaidar Haran or Moridins body to fight Rand in the last battle, but either of these would dissapoint me. RJs gotta have good ideas about the Last Battle Rand vs Dark One otherwise ill be gutted

[alEykamp]

I'm guessing he'll fight a physical manifestation of the DO (Shaidar Haran) and the "actual" DO.

 

Jordan may find it easier to write a satisfying battle if it isn't all between Rand and some sort of entity, but also has a bit of a physical being in there somewhere. Keeps up the intensity of the action sequence.

 

I imagine the sequence going down similar to book 2 where the battle between Rand and Ish was done on a several different levels. (In the sky, on the field and actual.)

[Dionysus]

I think that this will be the "last battle" as well.

 

I'm researching for a new theory on somehow the Moridin/Rand link, which I believe the Dark One is going to try to use to destroy the wheel will be used in reverse to have Rand destroy the Dark One.

 

I don't know if it is enough for the Dark One just to convert Rand to the darkside *sorry* to destroy the wheel. Look at how many times they have had an opportunity. Sure, it is a decisive victory for the Dark One to have Rand turn, but I believe the Wheel will be able to place new Ta'veren and perhaps release all the Heroes of the Horn to correct the imbalance. If the shadow did convert the Dragon, he could give him immortality so that the Dragon can never be reborn, as he would never have died. It just strikes me as too easy and in the previous umpteen million times the wheel has turned, its likely it would have happened before, or the Dark One is just a really pathetic tactician.

 

With Moridin and Rand merging, perhaps somehow you have the shadow merging with the light, and as opposed to having opposing forces they are merged together.

 

I havent really done any reading or fleshed out my idea to any great extent, its just the idea for my next theory in a line I have been writing.