The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Plagueis]

What about Rand's women? He has 3 women after him, and they all accept it willingly. It's not a normal situation in Randland, other than some Aiel having more than one wife. But even though only one of Rands ladies is Aiel, they are all Ok with it.

 

It's odd, but not particularly referred to as odd. Maybe there's a reason for the 3 which will become apparent later. The Wheel must have woven their threads together for it's own purpose - are there coincidences when the wheel weaves? It's also odd that WE haven't discussed the hell out of it! It's obviously so minor to us that it passes notice.

 

Weird things happen around taveren but maybe that doesn't explain it all. Also in regards to the number 3, to use Callandor safely Rand must link with 2 women (making a total of three) and two of his wives can channel. Perhaps they will be the two to link with him? This is also possibly referred to in the prophecy about Callandor. I can't remember the whole thing, but there is a line saying "three become one". Cadsuane (and I) thought it referred to the linking of three people to use the sa'angreal, but it may be in reference to Rand's wives as well.

 

I don't see how it's possible but all three wives could be combined into one person (Ilenya reborn). Pretty weird I know, but it would be cool.

[FarShainMael]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

 

That doesn't really fit with "Evil worse then men can make". Since it's mad made.

 

I imagine the male a'dam is what she was referring to. Considering that before the taint was cleansed, leashing a male channeler eventually took the leash holders into madness as well. The results from that happening could be construed as a major form of evil.

 

this is true as well. It makes you wonder what the hell is in Tanchico, that had Amys terrified like that.

 

Two things strike me about Egwene's dream excursions in and around Tanchico.

 

In tSR Ch11, Egwene Dreams herself into Tanchico after studying the map.

Then:

 

'With the Power in her..She could feel tiny cracks in the gilded plaster bosses covering the ceiling fifty feet up.. Infinitesimal cracks.. spread across the floorstones as well'.

 

What's going on here? Is it the effects of this unnamed evil?

 

Later, in Ch52, Nynaeve talks to the WO about bringing Amathera into T'A'R. Amys refuses to teach her even if they knew how, calling it an evil thing to ask, a thing that dreamwalkers knew they must not do. 'It is said that that was the way of the Shadow in the last days of the AoL.' Is this a foreshadowing, perhaps, of someone being forcibly dragged into T'A'R?

 

[Sharaman]

They are threads in the Pattern, and their world is woven into it--a part of the Age Lace, a parallel universe much like the Ogier homeworld.

 

Maybe I missed it, but I never read about the Ogier homeworld (I assumed they were from the same world as Rand and co.). Is there a thread or link that I could get in regards to this?

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for being a bit behind.

 

Check out the reference to the Book of Translation in KoD during Loial's marriage. (Chapter 19)

 

 

[Luckers]

Maybe I missed it, but I never read about the Ogier homeworld (I assumed they were from the same world as Rand and co.). Is there a thread or link that I could get in regards to this?

 

First mentioned in KoD.

 

"If you insist," his mother said grudgingly, "but I want an early start come morning. I refuse to waste an hour more than I must. The Book of Translation must be opened as soon as possible."

 

Loial jerked erect, aghast. "That's what the Great Stump is discussing? They can't do that, not now!"

 

"We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns." his mother said, striding to the nearest fireplace to spread her skirts again. "That is written. Now is exactly the right time, and the sooner the better."

 

 

 

 

[Plagueis]

"If you insist," his mother said grudgingly, "but I want an early start come morning. I refuse to waste an hour more than I must. The Book of Translation must be opened as soon as possible."

 

Loial jerked erect, aghast. "That's what the Great Stump is discussing? They can't do that, not now!"

 

"We must leave this world eventually, so we can come to it when the Wheel turns." his mother said, striding to the nearest fireplace to spread her skirts again. "That is written. Now is exactly the right time, and the sooner the better."

 

Thanks for that.

[lammbo]

Concerning entering TaR in the flesh, a couple of recent posts have started me thinking.  Let's review information presented to us about TaR at this point:

1)  TaR is a reflection of the real world

2)  The Aiel Dreamwalkers SAY it is evil to enter in the flesh, but have never once explained why other than to say that you lose a part of yourself every time you do so

3)  Agents of the shadow did this (to themselves and/or others) at the end of ?The war of power? (or whenever they did it)

4)  Those bound to the wheel wait here to be spun back out into the pattern

5)  Wolves live partly here and partly in the waking world at all times and much like those humans bound to the wheel, they are also reborn into the world

6)  Channeling has a varied degree of success depending on many circumstances, mostly centered around how one gains access to TaR and how strongly they are there.

7)  If a human is in TaR too strongly (for too long), the body will die.

 

Most of this is irrelevant to my musings, but I wanted to get the list straight in everyone's head before you started pondering this.

 

I think that at least one reason for the warnings about entering in the flesh is largely from item 1 above.  TaR is a REFLECTION of the real world, so what happens when you remove your body from the real world and enter TaR in the flesh?  Do you lose a part of yourself because there is nothing in the real world to reflect any longer?  If you stay there in the flesh long enough, does it become increasingly impossible to return?  Is it because things like what happened in the battle between Rand and Rhavin that cannot occur in the real world could leave one trapped there forever? 

 

Just a few things for your brain to chew on.

 

 

 

Now, to address this:

Two things strike me about Egwene's dream excursions in and around Tanchico.

 

In tSR Ch11, Egwene Dreams herself into Tanchico after studying the map.

Then:

 

'With the Power in her..She could feel tiny cracks in the gilded plaster bosses covering the ceiling fifty feet up.. Infinitesimal cracks.. spread across the floorstones as well'.

 

What's going on here? Is it the effects of this unnamed evil?

 

I think this is a simple one.  We all know senses are enhanced when they channel.  Tanchico is very very old and I think this is nothing more than a literary device showing age more than making a reference to the unseen evil.  The unseen evil could probably be accounted by many things going on in Tanchico at the time:  Moggy, the BA, the male a'dam and just the general state of the city itself, a seat of chaos.

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

There have been very interesting points regarding entering TAR in the flesh as a candidate.  But, to be a more plausible candidate, i think we need to show things that occur during/after these occasions that may be linked to being an effect caused by this. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

  The unseen evil could probably be accounted by many things going on in Tanchico at the time:  Moggy, the BA, the male a'dam and just the general state of the city itself, a seat of chaos.

Except none of those are a greater evil than what men (as in all people not males specifically) make.

[Plagueis]

Concerning entering TaR in the flesh, a couple of recent posts have started me thinking.  Let's review information presented to us about TaR at this point:

1)  TaR is a reflection of the real world

2)  The Aiel Dreamwalkers SAY it is evil to enter in the flesh, but have never once explained why other than to say that you lose a part of yourself every time you do so

3)  Agents of the shadow did this (to themselves and/or others) at the end of ?The war of power? (or whenever they did it)

4)  Those bound to the wheel wait here to be spun back out into the pattern

5)  Wolves live partly here and partly in the waking world at all times and much like those humans bound to the wheel, they are also reborn into the world

6)  Channeling has a varied degree of success depending on many circumstances, mostly centered around how one gains access to TaR and how strongly they are there.

7)  If a human is in TaR too strongly (for too long), the body will die.

 

8)  Also the environment (and basically everything) can be changed via simple thought.

 

I would like to pose a theory about what happens when you enter TAR in the flesh. You leave behind a part of yourself in TAR, this part can then act independently of yourself in the waking world. The more times you visit TAR the stronger your TAR doppelganger gets.

[aunt_pol]

 

For every single flippin' thing we posit as potential BUTs, there are so many arguments for and against... I feel like it's all old chewed meat at this stage.

If Brandon's aim was to keep us all entertained & out of his hair until November, it's fairly safe to say it's working quite well. 228 pages and counting.

I really hope TBUT turns out to be something we haven't flogged to death here, though. I'd love to be surprised! Although of course there should be enough wonderfulness in the book otherwise! Anyone got a new idea that's not on the interminable Verboten list?!

[DemandredFO]

Maybe Narg comes back or a steel inquistor comes to the party or Jamie Lannister pops up.  Love all the Nargs sigs by the way nice reaction to all the Bela nonsense.  Long live NARG!!! ;D

[aunt_pol]

Good man, Narg returning is exactly what we need! A slap in the face for takin the whole feckin thing so serious!

[Kaman]

I've been following this discussion for awhile now and I have read every word of the 228 pages here and some of it more than once. I can easily say that I am no closer to feeling that I know the BUT than when I first began reading this discussion.  This thread got me to read the Mistborn series so I would better understand what the BUT is in reference to.  I didn't think the fact that Vins earring was a hemalurgical mini spike that gave her 2x the ability to pierce copper was that big of a deal. So, no big help there, but I did really like the trilogy. Then I went back and listened to books 4-6 on audio book and that just helped to fuel the crazy theorist in my head. So I left this thread alone for a month. when I came back and caught up on my reading I found a few ideas that seemed plausible, especially the more recent TAR posts. That got me thinking.

 

Here are a few quotes from the Wheel of Time Concordance that seem not too outlandish and they aren't on the list so....

 

"If Moghedien was able to change Nynaeve's shape in Tel'aran'rhiod, she could make it lasting, only nine know the trick of doing that. Nynaeve would retain her consciousness of her true self. (V: 392)"

 

"Rahvin tries to force Rand to change into Lews in Tel'aran'rhiod. (V: 664)"

 

Was Rahvin able to permanently change Rand in some way. If not then the fact that peoples shapes can be changed permanently in TAR could be very important. Also it mentions that only nine know the secret. This seem like it might be referring to other Forsaken.  Not sure about anything but this is what I got for now.        

[mossman87]

I've been following this discussion for awhile now and I have read every word of the 228 pages here and some of it more than once. I can easily say that I am no closer to feeling that I know the BUT than when I first began reading this discussion.  This thread got me to read the Mistborn series so I would better understand what the BUT is in reference to.  I didn't think the fact that Vins earring was a hemalurgical mini spike that gave her 2x the ability to pierce copper was that big of a deal. So, no big help there, but I did really like the trilogy. Then I went back and listened to books 4-6 on audio book and that just helped to fuel the crazy theorist in my head. So I left this thread alone for a month. when I came back and caught up on my reading I found a few ideas that seemed plausible, especially the more recent TAR posts. That got me thinking.

 

Here are a few quotes from the Wheel of Time Concordance that seem not too outlandish and they aren't on the list so....

 

"If Moghedien was able to change Nynaeve's shape in Tel'aran'rhiod, she could make it lasting, only nine know the trick of doing that. Nynaeve would retain her consciousness of her true self. (V: 392)"

 

"Rahvin tries to force Rand to change into Lews in Tel'aran'rhiod. (V: 664)"

 

Was Rahvin able to permanently change Rand in some way. If not then the fact that peoples shapes can be changed permanently in TAR could be very important. Also it mentions that only nine know the secret. This seem like it might be referring to other Forsaken.  Not sure about anything but this is what I got for now.        

 

Considering Moghedien knows how to rip a hero tied to the horn out into the real world (Resurrection which Nynaeve witnessed), and the creation of Nym are from ripping a soul out of TAR into the construct, it wouldn't be crazy to think the Forsaken know some crazy way to do something like that.  *shrug*

[Plagueis]

 

I've been following this discussion for awhile now and I have read every word of the 228 pages here and some of it more than once. I can easily say that I am no closer to feeling that I know the BUT than when I first began reading this discussion.  This thread got me to read the Mistborn series so I would better understand what the BUT is in reference to.  I didn't think the fact that Vins earring was a hemalurgical mini spike that gave her 2x the ability to pierce copper was that big of a deal. So, no big help there, but I did really like the trilogy. Then I went back and listened to books 4-6 on audio book and that just helped to fuel the crazy theorist in my head. So I left this thread alone for a month. when I came back and caught up on my reading I found a few ideas that seemed plausible, especially the more recent TAR posts. That got me thinking.

 

Here are a few quotes from the Wheel of Time Concordance that seem not too outlandish and they aren't on the list so....

 

"If Moghedien was able to change Nynaeve's shape in Tel'aran'rhiod, she could make it lasting, only nine know the trick of doing that. Nynaeve would retain her consciousness of her true self. (V: 392)"

 

"Rahvin tries to force Rand to change into Lews in Tel'aran'rhiod. (V: 664)"

 

Was Rahvin able to permanently change Rand in some way. If not then the fact that peoples shapes can be changed permanently in TAR could be very important. Also it mentions that only nine know the secret. This seem like it might be referring to other Forsaken.  Not sure about anything but this is what I got for now.        

 

Nice theory, I like it.

 

Considering Moghedien knows how to rip a hero tied to the horn out into the real world (Resurrection which Nynaeve witnessed), and the creation of Nym are from ripping a soul out of TAR into the construct, it wouldn't be crazy to think the Forsaken know some crazy way to do something like that.  *shrug*

 

Where does it say Nym are created from ripping a soul out of TAR? I don't remember that...

[DemandredFO]

I too would like to know where the Nym information comes from.  I don't see how the Nym are good then as I can't see good guys ripping souls out of T'A'R

[Calderis]

I've been following this discussion for awhile now and I have read every word of the 228 pages here and some of it more than once. I can easily say that I am no closer to feeling that I know the BUT than when I first began reading this discussion.  This thread got me to read the Mistborn series so I would better understand what the BUT is in reference to.  I didn't think the fact that Vins earring was a hemalurgical mini spike that gave her 2x the ability to pierce copper was that big of a deal. So, no big help there, but I did really like the trilogy. Then I went back and listened to books 4-6 on audio book and that just helped to fuel the crazy theorist in my head. So I left this thread alone for a month. when I came back and caught up on my reading I found a few ideas that seemed plausible, especially the more recent TAR posts. That got me thinking.

 

Here are a few quotes from the Wheel of Time Concordance that seem not too outlandish and they aren't on the list so....

 

"If Moghedien was able to change Nynaeve's shape in Tel'aran'rhiod, she could make it lasting, only nine know the trick of doing that. Nynaeve would retain her consciousness of her true self. (V: 392)"

 

"Rahvin tries to force Rand to change into Lews in Tel'aran'rhiod. (V: 664)"

 

Was Rahvin able to permanently change Rand in some way. If not then the fact that peoples shapes can be changed permanently in TAR could be very important. Also it mentions that only nine know the secret. This seem like it might be referring to other Forsaken.  Not sure about anything but this is what I got for now.        

 

On the Mistborn point. The ability to pierce copper clouds was a minor side effect. The major part was that, due to it acting as a hemalurgical spike, the voice of her brother in her head for the entire series was actually the big bad trying to push her in the direction it wanted. It was a MUCH bigger thing than a "minor boost" to her abilities. It was something that helped shape the main character and her actions. That's the scale of what TBUT is supposed to be.

[Dreamwalker]

I too would like to know where the Nym information comes from.  I don't see how the Nym are good then as I can't see good guys ripping souls out of T'A'R

 

I think mossman87 was referring to this quote, but I disagree with his interpretation of it:

Q&A Dec. 9 2002: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Wotmania_and_Dragonmount_Q%26A_December_9,_2002

2. How does the idea of souls apply to constructs such as Nym and Trollocs? Could either of them be reborn?

 

To whoever put this one forward, this is one of the best questions I've ever gotten! Nym and Trollocs both have souls, and either could be reborn, but since Nym were a pure construct (i.e. each of them was individually made, like hand-crafting) a Nym would not be reborn as a Nym. You might say that a Nym's soul was borrowed temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth. A Trolloc, however, bears a twisted, or corrupted soul, and would be reborn as a Trolloc. Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul.

 

Since only the heroes of the horn's souls are in Tel'aran'rhiod, I'd say that Nym souls are not taken from Tel'aran'rhiod, but rather come from the normal afterlife pool of souls awaiting rebirth.

[Luckers]

I just encountered something that may qualify onto the list of something that might end up being big which we've all ignored--Rand making it rain in the Waste and the new lake at Rhuidean. I wouldn't really have paid it any mind but Rand specifically asks the question of what so much water in a place that had no water would do, (and it occurred to me that the ease with which Rand created that storm is a bit out with other weather-workings). But, it was the question more than the event itself that made me consider it--RJ could have been trying to foreshadow--or at least frame it for us as an issue.

 

That being said, this sort of thing should take centuries to have an effect, and we know the Big Thing is going to stand up and say hi in ToM, so normally I'd shrug it off--however, aside from simply the effect that so much more water might have in such an arid ecosystem, consider what happens if this interacts in some way with the other weather problems caused by the Dark One--and the things that were done with the Bowl of the Winds to fix them, and now the tGS the constant over-cast state... what effect could all this be having on an ecosystem built for the blistering sun?

 

Perhaps we'll be seeing flash floods wiping out the Aiel that remained in the Waste--a step towards the remnant of a remnant. It would be fitting for the Shaido to go that way--perfect justice for such foul Aiel--to drown.

[Dreamwalker]

I just encountered something that may qualify onto the list of something that might end up being big which we've all ignored--Rand making it rain in the Waste and the new lake at Rhuidean. I wouldn't really have paid it any mind but Rand specifically asks the question of what so much water in a place that had no water would do, (and it occurred to me that the ease with which Rand created that storm is a bit out with other weather-workings). But, it was the question more than the event itself that made me consider it--RJ could have been trying to foreshadow--or at least frame it for us as an issue.

 

That being said, this sort of thing should take centuries to have an effect, and we know the Big Thing is going to stand up and say hi in ToM, so normally I'd shrug it off--however, aside from simply the effect that so much more water might have in such an arid ecosystem, consider what happens if this interacts in some way with the other weather problems caused by the Dark One--and the things that were done with the Bowl of the Winds to fix them, and now the tGS the constant over-cast state... what effect could all this be having on an ecosystem built for the blistering sun?

 

Perhaps we'll be seeing flash floods wiping out the Aiel that remained in the Waste--a step towards the remnant of a remnant. It would be fitting for the Shaido to go that way--perfect justice for such foul Aiel--to drown.

 

Ooh, the weather would be an interesting BUT. But maybe not so much it's specific effect on the Waste - maybe the BUT is that Rand's Fisher King stuff affects the weather directly, not just crops dying and things like that (hence also why it was so easy for him to affect Rhuidean)? Meaning that the weather related goings on have all been because of Rand more than the DO. We see it start getting really hot sometime in 4-6 I believe, and Rand's temper has been growing. Then after the Bowl of Winds it gets really cold and frosty - at the same time, Rand is growing extremely cold and hard. Finally we have tGS with it's evil magical silver and black storms going with Rand's increasingly dark mood, with Veins of Gold and Rand's revelation bringing a break in the storm. Could this direct effect on specifically the weather become important for the end?

[Hadilmir]

Has anyone mentioned the dogs liking male channelers and cats liking women channelers? I don't even remember where this came in as a fact, but it seems obvious that since dogs are domestic wolves who can still tell channelers from non-channelers that cats ought to have an ancestor with similar abilities. Wolfbrothers and Lynxsisters anyone?  :P

 

 

 

I'm joking by the way, I doubt RJ would hide something like that for 12 books. Plus, I can't see it becoming important in any way either. Still, an answer for this would be nice.

[JakeBarnes]

I thought there was a Q&A or signing question that brought up wolfsisters, and the answer was Yes.  Females can be wolfbrothers.

[Hadilmir]

I thought there was a Q&A or signing question that brought up wolfsisters, and the answer was Yes.  Females can be wolfbrothers.

I knew that part, but where did the cats get the ability to recognize channelers?  :-\

 

If it makes you feel better-

Wolfbrothers/Wolfsisters and Lynxbrothers/Lynxsisters  ;)

[Dreamwalker]

I thought there was a Q&A or signing question that brought up wolfsisters, and the answer was Yes.  Females can be wolfbrothers.

I knew that part, but where did the cats get the ability to recognize channelers?  :-\

 

If it makes you feel better-

Wolfbrothers/Wolfsisters and Lynxbrothers/Lynxsisters  ;)

 

I would think it's just something that they can sense, like how animals can often tell when a storm is coming before people can. I doubt this is the BUT though, but it is definitely something I hadn't thought about in a while :-)

[Hadilmir]

I would think it's just something that they can sense, like how animals can often tell when a storm is coming before people can. I doubt this is the BUT though, but it is definitely something I hadn't thought about in a while :-)

 

But we don't see any other animals behave this way... I'm with you on doubting this is the BUT, but (pun, get it?) I'd really would like an answer on this. Maybe a different thread would've been better.