Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[FortySix]

There's zero chance rand will abandon Lan. Remember in WH in Far madding lan was dangling from the rootops and rand was holding up and chose to fall rather than let go. his darker changes amended. Also, I don't think Nyn's assesment that Lan will only have a small force will be accurate. Remember the opening scene from the prolgoue.  Farmers and smiths are aware the last battle is coming. All the soldiers will know. They'll unite behind Lan. His small force will be massive.

 

I would love to see a Moraine and Cadsuane staredown. Moraine should come back changed, perhaps even more powerful and wise. Especially if she's to continue on the Gandalf type she was started as.

 

I love that Min hits Semirhage twice with her knives. Most of the channelers seem to greatly overestimate their abilities. RJ made a point of setting them up with their overestimations and then knocking them down to reality. If Min's aim was just a little better she could have spared Rand a lot of pain.

[John Galt]

Unlike everyone else I didn't think Cadsuane's character was off at all.  Nor was Matt's.  It was all about Min for me.

 

I thought Min was the furthest from the Min I remembered.  I don't care how deranged Rand is, siding with Cadsuane and Nynaeve and plotting behind his back without telling him is something I'd expect from Elayne, but never Min.  Min was Rand's rock.  She was the woman that was there and on his side no matter how crazy he got.  She was the one that loved him for who he was and was unapologetic about his flaws.  The old Min would have hit Rand over the head and told him to let Cadsuane back in his employ, not run to Cadsuane and ask how they trick Rand into becoming a better man.

 

I hated the whole exchange.  I'm glad it turned out for the best, regardless of the poor execution, but I still hate Cadsuane and Nynaeve's methods.  I can't wait for Moraine to show up and school them in the art of being a good person AND getting what you want from people.  It was a hard learned lesson for Moraine but she learned it well.  She remains my favorite character in the books and I really hope she makes it back into the very next book because I couldn't bear waiting over two years to read about her again.  One year will be painful enough.

 

Cadsuane/Nynaeve/Min are going to be replaced by Avienda/Moraine/super powerful wilder girl (starts with an A...I'm sorry) and I can't wait.  I think Brandon set us up for a really good transformation of Avienda's character that is going to win over the majority of Rand's affections during the next book.  Min's going to have to go off with Cadsuane and Logain to try and expose Taim's followers, and Nynaeve is going to be Moraine's little b**ch.  Oh, and Moraine is going to get an Ashaman warder, though she'll break convention and bond Thom as well.

[Dorkfiend]

I really wish that Semi could have gotten a chance to torture and kill off Cadsuane before Rand took her out. I hate that character so much. She sucks all of the fun and joy out of the series for me whenever she appears. Please Brandon kill this POS character off. Preferably in the first paragraph of the prologue for ToM. 

 

I can see it now:

 

The Wheel of time turns and ages come and go, Leaving only memories that become legend, Legend fades to myth and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes once again.  In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in Cadsuane's mouth.  There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Wheel of Time.  But it was an ending.  The wind ceased and blew no more.

 

Come on, lighten up!  So she picked up a grown man and shook him in frustration.  From her perspective, he just blew the very last chance of averting the end of the world.  And then he challenges her authority in front of the only group of people around who are willing to grant her that authority anymore.  Insult on top of injury on top of huge horrible frustration.

 

Moiraine lost her temper about Rand once too.  It wasn't out of character.  It's just that she's not a robot, and more interesting than a two-dimensional caricature.

 

[ohaitharguiz]

I see Moiraine as a Gandalf type character. The whole falling into the abyss, thinking she is dead, coming back as 'The White Wizard.' I think she will be more powerful/have some very important knowledge to give Rand. Moiraine is one of my favorite characters in the series, and I really can't wait to see her again. As to Min being off, I think Rand was so far over the deep end, that something had to be done. I believe that people think some characters are off, because we have hit a stage where characters change a lot. Namely Mat. I would like to know how much RJ wrote of the things I hear complained about.

[Jambo]

You know Rand never actually cried up on Dragonmount, right? He laughed, but no tears. I still think that part of the prophecy is unfulfilled. Right from the get go I always assumed it would be a combo of Tam and Moiraine reappearing that would cause Rand to break down and laugh and cry, and since Tam's reappearance led to the laughing, I guess Moiraines reappearance will fulfill the second part. Maybe Cadsuane reunites her and Rand? i guess that would work...

 

speaking of Tam, I was SO disappointed with his and Rand's meeting. SO disappointed... I've been looking forward to an epic, shiver inducing scene since the very beginning, and this was just....blah.... i don't know, it just left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Elizabeth]

I want to know how Cadsuane knew that Tam was with Perrin. Tam had not been with Perrin for all that long and even Rand thought he was in the Two Rivers.

[Luckers]

Firstly I want to say to the Cadsuane-haters that this post is not to defend her to you, or to tell you you should like her. Go on hating her all you want. But please read with it in mind that this post is simply me trying to explain what I percieve to be the difference between old Cadsuane and tGS Cadsuane. I'm trying to make a point about difference.

 

to me Caddy has always been a bully, using the power to illustrate her point isn't something new (switching rand)

 

That was rather my point. The thing people miss with Cadsuane is that there is more to what she does than the simple doing of them. Take the situation with Rand in Tear--she did not spank him because she enjoyed embarressing him, or because she wanted to assert her power or influence--she did it because he was acting like a petulant child.

 

Whether you approve of that or not there was an integrity to it--she modulated her response to the person and the situation. Does that make it good to go around spanking grown men in front of people who must follow him? No. Of course not--but there was insight and intention there that led to her taking that specific action.

 

What does make it good, at least in my eyes, was that she was successful. He genuinely did pull back. Stopped, considered, and saw reason. For perhaps the first time in a year she made him pause and think during one of his rages. Now, I'm not saying this to defend Cadsuane--you want to hate her, and thats your choice. I doubt anything I say will change your mind on that. I'm saying this to make a point--whatever you think of Cadsuane and her methods, she is successful.

 

Let's look at Harine, for instance. She didn't bully Harine--Harine would have taken any open attempt to fight as a success. Rather she disdained the woman and talked around her, then dismissed her. Again successfully. Now Aleis. She didn't disdain or attack the woman, she rather illuminated existing weaknesses and let her collapse her own.

 

Cadsuane has insight. That is perhaps the core of her character. Again whether you like that she can do this or not, she had shown herself very capable of percieving people, and modulating her response to fit that person perfectly in order to achieve the things she wants to do.

 

From there I would point out, that again, whether you agree with them or not the things she wants to do always has a specific purpose. She did not spank Rand coz she got a jolly from it, she did it to make him pull back from being a fool. Denying Harine was for the purpose of learning Shalon's involvements with the attack, nothing else. Tearing Aleis down was to free Rand.

 

Those three factors are what I call the Subtleties of Cadsuane. Insight, Capability and Purpose. You said she was always a bully, and it is true, she has bullied. She's ridiculed. She's embarressed. If someone treated me like that I would probably punch them in the face with some balefire, consequences be damned.

 

But the distinction I think people (and Brandon) have missed is that when she bullies/ridicules/embarresses she does it because she has percieved that it is the best way to achieve her purpose. Her perception is usually accurate, her achievement usually certain and her purpose usually high minded. It's her actions that are what people are focussing on, and they can be nasty--but the subtleties and the underlying integrity that informs everything she does should not be missed if one is to accurately portray her.

 

But lets look at Tam. He is strong-willed man. An ex-soldier. Clearly capable and intelligent. So she tries to pick him up like a puppy. Why? Clearly it was bound to fail. Even if you want to reguard Cadsuane cynically she would not have done that for the simple reason that it would not work.

 

It was like Brandon went 'I need someone to call Cadsuane out, so I'll have her stupidly attack Tam so he can do it'. It was a cheap trick. And unnecessary. Have Tam call Cadsuane out. Have him win the argument--but don't set Cadsuane up like a straw doll to fail. Thats laziness, the type of writing worthy of Terry Goodkind.

 

Frankly I think old Cadsuane's response to someone like Tam would have been more along the lines of what she did with Harine--let him rant himself out, then dispassionately discredit what he was saying. THEN have Tam cut her off. "No, you don't. You've been playing him like this was a game. You've bullied, ridiculed and embarressed him and now you may have doomed us all. I've known bullies before, always when thing are on the line they evade responsibility at the last. You do not evade this, Cadsuane Sedai. This is your doing and your failure."

 

To which I'd have had Cadsuane bend and acknowledge Tam's point. Because that is the flip of the subtleties. Yes, her confidence in her insight and her capability to achieve what she wants leads to her sticking her nose were it doesn't belong. But that insight, and the underlying integrity which guides it would have told her Tam was right. She would have percieved that, and she would not have attacked him for it. It's not in her nature.

 

So, yes, you said she is a bully--but there is a question that should be applied before she bullys someone. Why is she bullying them? Brandon's answer seems to have been little more than 'because I need her to at this moment'. And that isn't good enough.

[John Galt]

Thats laziness, the type of writing worthy of Terry Goodkind.

 

I have to wonder if you irrational TG haters have actually read anything by him.  The unfounded prejudice is quite intriguing.

 

In any event, your theory is nonsensical.  Cadsuane has been trying to break Rand for over a year now.  One event that she definitely could not have avoided changes opinion of her to the point where he banishes her.  If she shows her face he'll kill her.  All her hard work, all her effort, ruined because the Dark One is more clever than she is.  She had every right to be frustrated to the point of breaking.  We've never seen Cadsuane denied.  Not only had she been denied, but she had devoted her LIFE to getting through to Rand and now it seemed she'd failed miserably.  Her last hope was Tam.  She knew it.  When he came back, having failed because he was stupid enough to mention her name to Rand, she finally cracked.

 

It doesn't contradict her character at all.  We'd just never seen Cadsuane pushed to the edge.  She wasn't man handling Tam to prove a point.  She was man handling Tam because he had ruined it, but at the same time, she knew a lot of it was her fault.  Cadsuane doesn't fail.  Cadsuane is a demi-god among Aes Sedai.  Look at how she treated Semihrage in KoD.  Do you really think Cadsuane is fearless against the Forsaken?  She has a reputation to uphold.  Brandon clearly understood that.  You clearly don't.  And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if RJ had written the details to that scene, considering how important they were.  It's so odd how people will jump on Brandon Sanderson for any flaw.  Did you even read Crossroads to Twilight?  That was written by Robert Jordan, and it was one of worst fantasy books I've ever read.  I know death immortalizes people to their fans, but honestly?  Jordan wasn't perfect.  Not everything you disliked about the book has to be Brandon's fault.  This book was 10x better than everything RJ wrote since LoC and 100x better than half of those.  And a lot of that is thanks to Brandon Sanderson.

[Luckers]

I have to wonder if you irrational TG haters have actually read anything by him.  The unfounded prejudice is quite intriguing.

 

Read the entire series, actually.

 

In any event, your theory is nonsensical.  Cadsuane has been trying to break Rand for over a year now.  One event that she definitely could not have avoided changes opinion of her to the point where he banishes her.  If she shows her face he'll kill her.  All her hard work, all her effort, ruined because the Dark One is more clever than she is.  She had every right to be frustrated to the point of breaking.  We've never seen Cadsuane denied.  Not only had she been denied, but she had devoted her LIFE to getting through to Rand and now it seemed she'd failed miserably.  Her last hope was Tam.  She knew it.  When he came back, having failed because he was stupid enough to mention her name to Rand, she finally cracked.

 

If you'd read the thread you would have seen that I stated in my first post that 'maybe she'd been thrown more deeply than she let on' leading to the unusual irrationality. That point does not make my position 'nonsensical'. I acknowledge Tam could have been one break resulting from stress and the tenuos position she found herself in--my position is about her as a character in this entire book.

 

Integral failures like the one I'm discussing shade a characters POV entirely, and so it was with Cadsuane.

 

She was man handling Tam because he had ruined it, but at the same time, she knew a lot of it was her fault.  Cadsuane doesn't fail.  Cadsuane is a demi-god among Aes Sedai.  Look at how she treated Semihrage in KoD.  Do you really think Cadsuane is fearless against the Forsaken?  She has a reputation to uphold.  Brandon clearly understood that.  You clearly don't.

 

Firstly, I do understand that Cadsuane has a reputation to uphold--how could I not, Brandon practically beats us over the head with the concept--but like everything else she does she uses it for a purpose, as opposed to because she likes being famous. It falls under the same umbrella of logic as to why she chose to spank Rand in tear--perception of need, insight in to gaining that need, and subsequent action upon that need.

 

Indeed this point is against what your saying--why would she make a fool of herself with Tam in order to keep up her appearences? If she were rational enough to consider that issue, then the irrationality of her acting on the thought in the way she did brings us back to a contradiction of her nature.

 

Consider, you suggest she grabbed him because she couldn't be seen to fail--yet I say to you she wouldn't have grabbed him because that would make her appear defensive, which does far more damage to her reputation--and so it did. The old Cadsuane would not have done that--her purpose, to maintain her image would not be served by that action, therefore she would not have utilized it.

 

And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if RJ had written the details to that scene, considering how important they were.  It's so odd how people will jump on Brandon Sanderson for any flaw.  Did you even read Crossroads to Twilight?  That was written by Robert Jordan, and it was one of worst fantasy books I've ever read.  I know death immortalizes people to their fans, but honestly?  Jordan wasn't perfect.  Not everything you disliked about the book has to be Brandon's fault.  This book was 10x better than everything RJ wrote since LoC and 100x better than half of those.  And a lot of that is thanks to Brandon Sanderson.

 

Not even close. I'm not arguing against this because I don't like Brandon's writing--his climaxes are better than RJ's, and frankly Aviendha and Nynaeve in this book are the best written they've ever been. Furthermore this book is probably one of my favourites in the series, and contains a scene that IS my favourite in the series (with the possible exception of the cleansing, but again there is RJ's abrupt climaxes involved in that judgement).

 

I can't abide it when people play this game on either side of the fence. Treat an argument on its topics, don't use spurious claims at the irrationality of attacks based on dislike for the loss RJ. It is my opinion that Brandon missed an integral part of Cadsuane's nature, thus putting her off. Discuss that with me, not my 'hatred of Brandon Sanderson' or my 'worship of RJ'.

[John Galt]

Consider, you suggest she grabbed him because she couldn't be seen to fail--yet I say to you she wouldn't have grabbed him because that would make her appear defensive, which does far more damage to her reputation--and so it did. The old Cadsuane would not have done that--her purpose, to maintain her image would not be served by that action, therefore she would not have utilized it.

 

You seemed to have missed my point entirely and assume to presume that Cadsuane is infallible in her commitment to reason.  She didn't grab Tam because she couldn't be seen to fail.  She grabbed Tam because the fact that she couldn't be seen to fail, among with many other self imposed pressures, yet had failed anyway had finally broken her control over her own actions.

 

In many ways she was as misguided as Rand.  Where Rand had resigned himself to becoming as hard as cuellindar, Cadsuane has resigned herself to becoming completely withdrawn.  She was a figure head, and a needed one.  She didn't spank people because she liked showing everyone her power over them.  She spanked Rand and Semirhage because it gave her sisters an ideal to follow.  And it worked.  The Aes Sedai guarding Semirhage had almost lost control of the shield because she was so nervous, and after seeing how easily Cadsuane handled the Forsaken, was renewed with confidence in her abilities.  This worked for her purposes but it also didn't.  Treating Rand like an object to be fixed and guided was her undoing.  And Tam made that blatantly obvious.  It broke her resolve and she displayed a moment of weakness.  Crazy, I know, but maybe Cadsuane is human?

 

Your theory rests on the ridiculous assumption that Cadsuane is infallible; that every action she ever does is for what she perceives as the greater good.  I find it much more likely that perhaps Brandon Sanderson understood Cadsuane just as well as you did, and had her and Rand come to similar realizations by almost doing something disastrous in a moment of forced realization.  Crazy, I know.

[snowtarg]

Unlike everyone else I didn't think Cadsuane's character was off at all.  Nor was Matt's.  It was all about Min for me.

 

I thought Min was the furthest from the Min I remembered.  I don't care how deranged Rand is, siding with Cadsuane and Nynaeve and plotting behind his back without telling him is something I'd expect from Elayne, but never Min.  Min was Rand's rock.  She was the woman that was there and on his side no matter how crazy he got.  She was the one that loved him for who he was and was unapologetic about his flaws.  The old Min would have hit Rand over the head and told him to let Cadsuane back in his employ, not run to Cadsuane and ask how they trick Rand into becoming a better man.

 

I hated the whole exchange.  I'm glad it turned out for the best, regardless of the poor execution, but I still hate Cadsuane and Nynaeve's methods.  I can't wait for Moraine to show up and school them in the art of being a good person AND getting what you want from people.  It was a hard learned lesson for Moraine but she learned it well.  She remains my favorite character in the books and I really hope she makes it back into the very next book because I couldn't bear waiting over two years to read about her again.  One year will be painful enough.

 

Seconded.

 

Unlike the other two, Min is almost entirely defined by her unique dynamic with Rand. She always 'gets' him. Does anyone really think she'd be so dense as to keep on going 'cadsuane says..' when Rand manifestly reacts badly to it? The Jordan written Min is far different.

 

I think this is because, unlike the other, plot driven characters, she's defined by the writer's voice the most, and it fell flat in tGT. I doubt this will get better, and the best that character can hope for is probably to be shunted aside.

 

That said, while the Cadsuane- Ny-Min was one of the weaker parts, Rand was well done, so I'll take that at this point.

 

 

[Luckers]

You seemed to have missed my point entirely and assume to presume that Cadsuane is infallible in her commitment to reason.  She didn't grab Tam because she couldn't be seen to fail.  She grabbed Tam because the fact that she couldn't be seen to fail, among with many other self imposed pressures, yet had failed anyway had finally broken her control over her own actions.

 

No, I got that point. The point I was making in return is that Cadsuane doesn't give two hoots for her reputation in any form of personal manner. It is a tool--the idea that she would allow a threat to it to put her off balance does not work in the intrinsic nature of why she is maintaining it to begin with.

 

All of this is irrelevant--as I've stated several times her break with Tam is more easily explained by the simple stress of her position. That too is irrelevant since my point was not about Cadsuane in that one scene, it was about Cadsuane throughout tGS--even as early as chapter one Brandon has her being pointlessly belligerant and dismissive, and it doesn't hold true with her nature--in the detailed way I stated above. One mistake she could make, individual breaks with her previous personality are fine depending on specific circumstance--but this issue is universal through her protrayel in the book.

 

Whatever stress placed on her by the break with Rand following Semirhage's attack, the difference came from the very moment she appeared.

 

Your theory rests on the ridiculous assumption that Cadsuane is infallible; that every action she ever does is for what she perceives as the greater good.  I find it much more likely that perhaps Brandon Sanderson understood Cadsuane just as well as you did, and had her and Rand come to similar realizations by almost doing something disastrous in a moment of forced realization.  Crazy, I know.

 

Not infalliable--I believe I was quite clear on the fact that I believe she did did fail in certain ways with Rand. My position is on the basis of her character and the alteration of that basis in tGS. That she is insightful does not mean she wins, but it does change the way she reacts--indeed, if you'd read my post you would have seen that I was calling for her to fail. Tam had every right to call her out and drop her a rung or two. It was how that happened that I have a problem with--and not a big one. This topic is about more than Tam, and always has been.

 

 

Also, please stop using words like 'ridiculous' and 'nonsensical' even if you are thinking them. Try 'I don't think your point makes sense'. Those two usages, and others like them, serve only to be contentious. They, in effect, have no place on this discussion forum.

[John Galt]

Your argument is that she's changed throughout the whole book and yet the only evidence you've given is the specific scene with Tam and a vague reference to earlier on.  If you want to prove your point, highlight the scenes you are talking about where Cadsuane acts contrary to how she does in previous books.

[Luckers]

I'm not trying to prove anything John. You're the one treating this like a fight. I'm merely expressing my opinion on the issue of Cadsuane.

 

But ok, another example where I feel Cadsuane does not act in the way she would have is when Cadsuane first approaches Rand after Semirhage leashes him. She immediately realises something is wrong, so she starts questioning him. Pushing him. This situation is almost exactly comprable to the situation in which Cadsuane first encountered Rand. She came to the Sun Palance and pushed at him in order to gain an understanding of what's going on in him.

 

That's where the two diverge--in that first one she is artful. She witnesses his reactions, measures them, and proceeds based on that knowledge. Again, the insight and the capability. In tGS she might as well be an idiot for all the insight or capability she shows. I've no problem with her failing, but she just keeps on on a line which is not working.And you can't just claim 'oh, she was pushed off balance for the first time' because it is in that she was pushed off balance that she is different.

 

This isn't me claiming she is infalliable either, it's just that we've seen Cadsuane handle exactly the same sort of situation--coming to Rand not knowing how dangerous he was, or what he was going to do--only this time she displayed not skill at all. No insight. It's not Cadsuane, it's not how she would react to Rand grown suddenly difficult and dangerous. At the very least old Cadsuane would have stopped, and chosen to monitor him before proceeding.

 

And the thing is Brandon knew this about Cadsuane--its precisely how he played her out with Semirhage. But he surrendered that for the purpose of progressing the plot, and Rand banishing Cadsuane. And thats lazy. He could have put Rand and Cadsuane in that position without compromising her character.

 

Anyway that's just one of the big ones, and what I'm speaking of is an intrinsic character trait--the simple way she thought lacked the three Subtleties, and that infects every one of her scenes. Hope it helped you understand my position.

[ohaitharguiz]

"What does make it good, at least in my eyes, was that she was successful. He genuinely did pull back. Stopped, considered, and saw reason. For perhaps the first time in a year she made him pause and think during one of his rages. Now, I'm not saying this to defend Cadsuane--you want to hate her, and thats your choice. I doubt anything I say will change your mind on that. I'm saying this to make a point--whatever you think of Cadsuane and her methods, she is successful."

 

I could kill every human on the world to bring about world peace. But just because it works, doesn't mean that is the way it should be done.

 

[anotherfingolfin]

You seemed to have missed my point entirely and assume to presume that Cadsuane is infallible in her commitment to reason.  She didn't grab Tam because she couldn't be seen to fail.  She grabbed Tam because the fact that she couldn't be seen to fail, among with many other self imposed pressures, yet had failed anyway had finally broken her control over her own actions.

 

In many ways she was as misguided as Rand.  Where Rand had resigned himself to becoming as hard as cuellindar, Cadsuane has resigned herself to becoming completely withdrawn.  She was a figure head, and a needed one.  She didn't spank people because she liked showing everyone her power over them.  She spanked Rand and Semirhage because it gave her sisters an ideal to follow.  And it worked.  The Aes Sedai guarding Semirhage had almost lost control of the shield because she was so nervous, and after seeing how easily Cadsuane handled the Forsaken, was renewed with confidence in her abilities.  This worked for her purposes but it also didn't.  Treating Rand like an object to be fixed and guided was her undoing.  And Tam made that blatantly obvious.  It broke her resolve and she displayed a moment of weakness.  Crazy, I know, but maybe Cadsuane is human?

 

Your theory rests on the ridiculous assumption that Cadsuane is infallible; that every action she ever does is for what she perceives as the greater good.  I find it much more likely that perhaps Brandon Sanderson understood Cadsuane just as well as you did, and had her and Rand come to similar realizations by almost doing something disastrous in a moment of forced realization.  Crazy, I know.

 

i think you make a fair point. also, the thing to keep in mind is, we are at a point in the plot where everything is coming to a head, and people are under immense pressure. people will behave in many ways very different from what is normally expected. one could, for that matter, argue that Rand is off. he def doesn't behave like he did in KoD or even tSR (to stretch the illustration to ridiculous proportions). but that is because his character has evolved, and is in drastically different circumstances right now, and is reacting to them.

Cads is not infallible, and is in different circumstances now as well. maybe as she isn't a primary POV character, we don't see her getting to this point with as much clarity, but i think it is plausible. The fact that the truth of Tam's sharp put-down stings her is evidence that she isn't completely ruined.

 

same thing with min. i was disappointed with her going behind his back, but desperate times call for desperate measures. and she doesn't feel completely comfortable about the whole thing, does she? and i like to think she would have taken the plan on its merit. if, when it was all finally revealed, she hated it and did not agree, i like to think she would not have gone though. and another point to take away is that after the a'dam scene, things really have changed between her and Rand, so maybe her behaving differently isn't all that strange.

 

this time she displayed not skill at all. No insight. It's not Cadsuane, it's not how she would react to Rand grown suddenly difficult and dangerous. At the very least old Cadsuane would have stopped, and chosen to monitor him before proceeding.

 

fair assessment, i got the feeling too, initially, but maybe we are supposed to get the impression that she is losing it a bit?

[coteaz]

Well Min came to her senses towards the end with the whole "this is what we get for trying to MAKE him do what we want", perhaps in the next book in her POV's she will star returning to his side.

[Luckers]

this time she displayed not skill at all. No insight. It's not Cadsuane, it's not how she would react to Rand grown suddenly difficult and dangerous. At the very least old Cadsuane would have stopped, and chosen to monitor him before proceeding.

 

fair assessment, i got the feeling too, initially, but maybe we are supposed to get the impression that she is losing it a bit?

 

That's the problem overall with Cadsuane. Rand is different. Min is different. Aviendha and Nynaeve are different. I didn't have problems with them, because there were reasons they were evolving. We saw these reasons--or at the very least we see the progression. But Cadsuane--nothing happened to evoke this change. She'd had hundreds of years success behind her, and suddenly, with no reason, went dumb as a doorpost in dealing with Rand.

 

That's perhaps why the Tam scene doesn't bother me--in that scene she'd been through the event with Rand, and everything hung on the balance. She had reason to break with her normal methods. But the Rand/Semirhage scene... she just failed. It was like she turned her back on the methodology she'd employed with great success for over two hundred years for no purpose.

 

BS used Cadsuane as the catalyst in that scene. I get why--he needed to show Rand's new personality state, and needed a break between Rand and Cadsuane. But instead of using her character to bring it about, he dumbed her down so it could happen.

 

That may be where RJ's detailed plot line is hampering him. He's trying to hard to get things were they need to be, and not paying enough attention that how they get there is important. Cadsuane should never have reacted to Rand in the way she did. At the very least she shouldn't have continued arguing defensively when he snapped at her. That's not Cadsuane in the slightest. The only reason she did seems to be that she needed to in order for Rand to banish her.

 

That could have been achieved in other ways. And the core of this failure is that he has missed the subtleties that ground and inform every action she takes. Her insight and her adaptive responses. Instead he just went 'she belligerant about getting what she wants, even though she is right to seek it'.

[MystErikEry]

Rereading that passage, and I'm not completely sure it's "not very cadsuane like".

 

I do think she loses her temper a bit more than she ought to, but I think some of it is justified...

 

It does say that she has a tough time gathering her thoughts.  Take a look:

 

First, she wants to know what happened.  So she's asking what happened, and when Rand doesn't answer she insists that he "Speak up, boy!" since she's treating him like the farmboy she usually treats him as when he's being rude.  That's not odd for her at all.

 

However, Rand surprises her by being cool, rather than getting angry or satisfied, or fatigued.  This catches her off guard, and she demands an explanation.

When he next looks at her, she "[takes] an involuntary step backward, though she couldn't say why. He was the same foolish boy. Too tall, too self-confident, and too blunt-headed."

Then when he teaches Narishma balefire, she loses herself a bit, insisting that he should never use it, and that it was forbidden.  This isn't entirely out of character, either.

 

Then he meets her gaze again: "She struggled to collect her thoughts."

 

So as you can see, she's having difficulty thinking here, whereas normally she does keep herself cool and calm.  When dealing with Semirhage, she chose NOT to be the one to interrogate her, so she could watch and observe and see.  Here, she can't do that, obviously, since she's the one on the spot. Mind you, she didn't have a problem the last time with Rand, but at that time she wasn't having trouble collecting herself.

 

At this point, she is ready to go with Rand rather than against him. "So Semirhage is dead?"  "Well, then. I suppose we can get on with-"

And then Rand interrupts her, and shows her the bracelets.  She is surprised, because she had them warded.

"Well, then, that is settled then." she says.

Then Rand simply exiles her.  Out of nowhere, as far as she is concerned - she has to swallow a stab of panic.  For him, it was because she failed to keep her promise of keeping the male a'dam away.

She's so shocked by this, that she's left flabbergasted.

She's left dazed and confused by the whole thing.

Yes, it's uncharacteristic - but I think it's part of Rand's ta'veren effect.  The pattern required her to be exiled from him, so...  ?  :)  Disrupt her usual coolheadedness, and she's hosed.  Besides, really, NOTHING she could have said would have changed anything - Rand didn't exile her for being argumentative with him instead of reserved, he exiled her for failing to keep that a'dam sealed up properly.

[coteaz]

I actually agree with Luckers and MystErikEry, she did seem off i agree, however in agreeing with MystErikEry, i see that perhaps it was dude to extrenal circumstances, like her rushing to get rand out of his current condition. She is not normally like that, but the pressures of the upcoming 'Last Battle' and rands attitude and nonchalance must really be annoying her to no end, but then again i may be reading to much into this, what does everyone else think?

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

That's the problem overall with Cadsuane. Rand is different. Min is different. Aviendha and Nynaeve are different. I didn't have problems with them, because there were reasons they were evolving. We saw these reasons--or at the very least we see the progression. But Cadsuane--nothing happened to evoke this change. She'd had hundreds of years success behind her, and suddenly, with no reason, went dumb as a doorpost in dealing with Rand.

 

That's perhaps why the Tam scene doesn't bother me--in that scene she'd been through the event with Rand, and everything hung on the balance. She had reason to break with her normal methods. But the Rand/Semirhage scene... she just failed. It was like she turned her back on the methodology she'd employed with great success for over two hundred years for no purpose.

 

BS used Cadsuane as the catalyst in that scene. I get why--he needed to show Rand's new personality state, and needed a break between Rand and Cadsuane. But instead of using her character to bring it about, he dumbed her down so it could happen.

 

That may be where RJ's detailed plot line is hampering him. He's trying to hard to get things were they need to be, and not paying enough attention that how they get there is important. Cadsuane should never have reacted to Rand in the way she did. At the very least she shouldn't have continued arguing defensively when he snapped at her. That's not Cadsuane in the slightest. The only reason she did seems to be that she needed to in order for Rand to banish her.

 

That could have been achieved in other ways. And the core of this failure is that he has missed the subtleties that ground and inform every action she takes. Her insight and her adaptive responses. Instead he just went 'she belligerant about getting what she wants, even though she is right to seek it'.

 

This is an example of where I think you've missed an essential point about Cadsuane all along by failing to compare her actions to Jordan's stated role for her.

 

She's never been smart.  Or even very clever.  She's always been bullheaded and simple-minded.  Devious and conniving.  Not subtle at all.

 

Has she ever, even for five minutes, tried to just talk to Rand?  Get a sense of who's inside that shell he presents to the world?  Get a sense of what he needs from those around him?  Has she ever attempted to establish the kind of rapport that would allow Rand to begin to share any of his tremendous burden?

 

Nope.  All she has ever done is confront.  Subvert.  Maneuver.  Bully.

 

Her reaction to what happened with the Domination Band is entirely consistent with the character as Jordan had written her.

[Luckers]

I'm not surprised to hear you say that Bob. As I stated on my very first comment "It's sad. I've spent years defending Cadsuane to posters, because of the subtleties behind her high-handedness, but in this book those subtleties were absent, and she was everything that people characterized her to be, and more."

 

Your right. What she is in tGS is very much what you've always argued her to be.

[Crossroad]

Reading those last few post were a eye opener to me and I enjoyed every word written there.  It Does tend to vindicate my thoughts on Cadusane.  We may see a new Cad in the next book when Moraine returns.

 

Great stuff guys really enjoyed those posts above me.

[Mr Ares]

Yes, it's uncharacteristic - but I think it's part of Rand's ta'veren effect. The pattern required her to be exiled from him, so...  ?  :)

Ta'veren is a factor, but when things happen just because they need to happen, it's unsatisfying. On the other hand, Cadsuane acting more like Cadsuane and still being exiled, still getting taken down a notch by Taim, and so on, is much more satisfying. The ending is the same, but the story is improved.

[Jemlin]

Not to change the subject, but yes to change it lol.

 

I'm a little dissapointed that Daigan died.  I was hoping that her teaching Nynaeve the 100 weaves would provide two important opportunities:

 

1. Nynaeve to figure out and flesh out the flaw in the Aes Sedai ranking system

2. Nynaeve to figure out the hidden uses of the "purposeless" 100 weaves.

 

I have always felt that, although they seem *pointless*, some of them maybe left over weaves from more important pre-breaking weaves used by the Aes Sedai.  It seems a little odd to me to have close to a hundred weaves made up just for a test. (Assuming some of them still have a use outside of the test). 

 

It was also a development in Nynaeve's character, where she was admitting a lack of knowledge and working on it.  I'm wondering if she will continue in this with someone else, or if this will be left to drift.