Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[Jemlin]

On the other hand, it would be fitting with the redemption themes in the series for Elaida to inspire all the AS damane to resist betraying the tower.

Elaida resisting the Seanchan is one of the few things that might be able to rehabilitate her in the eyes of readers.

 

I don't think we'll see that. I think we are done with Elaida, just like we were done with Sevanna.  R.I.P. Elaida (seriously, rest, NEVER COME BACK!) lol

[Auld Manriva]

Even "un"-corrupted prophecy is open to interpretation, and hardly ever means what some would be scholar thinks it means. Thats been said a thousand times here and elsewhere, and by RJ himself.

 

Outside of the Forsaken these Seanchan gits are the SINGLE most arrogant bunch of horses arses in the whole flamin' story. Nothing they believe can be wrong, disputed or even considered. Gosh, how lifelike is that?

 

Don't forget ... The "sul'dam can use the OP" card is still on the table but up someone's sleeve. For"tuon"a bloody Knows it too, but has deluded herself into thinking it's "superstition", a lie, or is just plain ignoring it.

 

The Crystal Throne, also don't forget, is a powerful ter'angreal, that forces compulsion (or something similar, obeisance maybe, I'm too lazy to go check) on those who stand within it's range of influence. WHO has the bloody thing now? Is it "automatic", or is there a hidden off/on switch? Hmmmm?

 

How ironic would it be, for Rand and a couple piano movers to pop out of a doorway in SeanchanVille, snatch up the chair and split? Show up next in Elbow Duhhh.... and set up shop as Billy BadArse and have Oh 4Tuna, steppin' and fetchin' to HIS desires. THAT could change some bloody attitudes towards collaring women who don't WANT to be. Meaning those AS this bunch o' scrubs have gathered up recently. Most of the ones who've been puppy dogs for a while are lost causes.

 

OR her tiny hineyness, gets her gateways (by virtue of the scrub "Elvira" of the new stupid name) and does the above described deed her own self... Now wouldn't THAT set the Chicken Snake loose in the hen coop?

[Moorz]

 

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

"the lightning his eye" - Could this be how Mat loses an eye?

 

With the grey skys overhead all the time, will they finally break in the form of lightning and hit Mat?

Will Mat be fighting the gholam as this happens and gholam dies and Mat lives...

 

[Declan]

that could be how Mat loses his eye. but you will find more answers on his thread.

 

Tuon will be saved by Mat somehow it seems according to that stanza in the prohpecy. Maybe she will grant him the authority of being general over her armies- "with the fox that makes the ravens fly."

 

and i agree with others on this thread that Seanchan are there to really make us hate them. I don't care how peaceful they run things. if its not with SOME humility then forget it. The Seanchan will not be going away after the LB though. something must happen to change their views.

[lillcheese]

 

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

"the lightning his eye" - Could this be how Mat loses an eye?

 

 

I think we're all misunderstanding this prophecy.  In the KC, only Rand is referred to by pronoun.  Mat is referred to as the Fox.

 

I always thought that Mat would lose the eye in Finnland as his part of a bargain.  I also thought he would lose it in some lightning-like way.  I never realized until today that those thoughts were probably inconsistent.

[Declan]

i don't know if it is Rand that is spoken of when it says "Luck his soul". the only way that makes sense is if it is Mat. Luck is always spoken in the same sentence as Mat.

 

Where does it say that Rand is the only referred to in pronouns? is this an RJ quote?

[lillcheese]

i don't know if it is Rand that is spoken of when it says "Luck his soul". the only way that makes sense is if it is Mat. Luck is always spoken in the same sentence as Mat.

 

Where does it say that Rand is the only referred to in pronouns? is this an RJ quote?

 

Not an RJ quote so far as I know.  It was something I noticed while reading the KC when someone posted the whole thing.  I just double checked and the only exception is "and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man".

 

Now, I don't have the Guide, and I'm basing my analysis on someone else having reliably posted the whole KC in other threads.  

 

We first get the "Luck his soul" bit from Noal.  I would accept that this refers to Mat if we believe that Noal a. misquoted or b. the translation Noal used was inaccurate.

 

I would propose that "luck" and "chance" are similar enough in meaning that a mistranslation was likely.  A mistranslation switching the Fox with the Dragon seems less likely.  Edited to add: That's assuming Rand's ta'veren effect can't be called "luck" by a prophecy.  I don't think that's a valid assumption.

 

Oh, and regarding the "plucking moons", it has been asserted frequently here that the meeting between Rand & Tuon couldn't bind Tuon because she was not, yet, the 9 Moons.  I would say the same logic can apply to calling Tuon "moons", even without the 9 in front of it.

[Declan]

i think that if we start to read into the prophecies so much that we start to say some words are mistranslated then we are gonna tear down the whole thing. I am going to stay safe and say that each word has been/spoken correctly in its place.

[John Galt]

It's time for Rand to get clever.  He has a few problems that need to be dealt with.

 

The first is the Seachan

 

The second is the Black Tower

 

The third is, obviously, Tarmon Gaidon

 

The third problem is most important.  He has to decide what he needs to win.  I don't think vast numbers of warriors is going to win this for him.  Were that the case, they wouldn't really need the Dragon.  Lews Therin sealed the DO, albeit imperfectly, with nothing more than 100 Aes Sedai.  Rand already has the whole weight of the White Tower behind him (he'll know this soon).  He probably needs more than 100 channelers and thus he needs a lot more men than he currently has at his disposal.  The Black Tower needs to be divided.  The Black Tower needs to fall before he can fight Tarmon Gaidon.  The Seachan can't be his enemies during Tarmon Gaidon.  He needs his channelers devoted to fighting off the Black Ajah and remaining few Forsaken while he either takes on Moridin or leads a huge Aes Sedai/Ashaman circle to seal the DO's prison for good.  He can't win with the Black Tower the way it is and he can't win with the state of the Seachan the way it is.

 

The solution is easy.  Pit the Seachan against the Black Tower.  Let Logan know what is going on.  Play the darkfriend's own game, but play it better.  Let Logan and those loyal to him pretend to do battle with the Seachan, and when they show up to raid the Black Tower and deal a huge blow to the Dragon, kill Taim in the confusion and then travel out of there.  The Black Tower, without Logain's men, would probably be 100 men and 50 women strong.  They'd wreak havoc on the Seachen, but would ultimately lose.  The Seachan don't have male adams, so they can't even capture the Ashaman.  It'd be a brutal battle where the Black Tower is crushed and the Seachan are severely weakened.

 

Then in steps Rand and a huge force and the Seachen have no choice but to sign a peace treaty: March with the Dragon on Tarmon Gaidon and all sins are forgiven and we start on neutral ground when it's over.  The Seachen accept considering it's such a sweet deal (they get to attack and rule again, or try to, as soon as its all over).  And that's all there is to it.

 

As soon as Rand finds out the Seachen attack Tar Valon just to strike a blow at him, this plan should become immediately obvious.  It wouldn't be that hard to convince Fortuona that the Black Tower is the bigger threat with a few leaked intelligence reports.  When you have two enemies that don't get along, it usually pays off to let them kill each other first.  It occurs to me Brandon Sanderson would probably think of this and even prefer it, after reading Warbreaker, but I'm wondering what RJ's plans are.  I hope it doesn't involve a White Tower v. Black Tower war because that is so wasteful.

[lillcheese]

i think that if we start to read into the prophecies so much that we start to say some words are mistranslated then we are gonna tear down the whole thing. I am going to stay safe and say that each word has been/spoken correctly in its place.

 

I don't think there needs to be a mistranslation for my theory to be accurate.  My theory is based primarily on textual consistency.  For that line to refer to Mat, there needs to be some reason for an exception to the general rule.  I could accept a mistranslation to provide the exception but I think it's unlikely.

 

Okay, I'm overly enthused about this.  I know. I got to this series late, after every theory had been hashed out and solved as much as possible.  I didn't even notice anything special about Asmodean's death.  I can't believe I might have figured something out first.   

[coteaz]

It's time for Rand to get clever.  He has a few problems that need to be dealt with.

 

The first is the Seachan

 

The second is the Black Tower

 

The third is, obviously, Tarmon Gaidon

 

The third problem is most important.  He has to decide what he needs to win.  I don't think vast numbers of warriors is going to win this for him.  Were that the case, they wouldn't really need the Dragon.  Lews Therin sealed the DO, albeit imperfectly, with nothing more than 100 Aes Sedai.  Rand already has the whole weight of the White Tower behind him (he'll know this soon).  He probably needs more than 100 channelers and thus he needs a lot more men than he currently has at his disposal.  The Black Tower needs to be divided.  The Black Tower needs to fall before he can fight Tarmon Gaidon.  The Seachan can't be his enemies during Tarmon Gaidon.  He needs his channelers devoted to fighting off the Black Ajah and remaining few Forsaken while he either takes on Moridin or leads a huge Aes Sedai/Ashaman circle to seal the DO's prison for good.  He can't win with the Black Tower the way it is and he can't win with the state of the Seachan the way it is.

 

The solution is easy.  Pit the Seachan against the Black Tower.  Let Logan know what is going on.  Play the darkfriend's own game, but play it better.  Let Logan and those loyal to him pretend to do battle with the Seachan, and when they show up to raid the Black Tower and deal a huge blow to the Dragon, kill Taim in the confusion and then travel out of there.  The Black Tower, without Logain's men, would probably be 100 men and 50 women strong.  They'd wreak havoc on the Seachen, but would ultimately lose.  The Seachan don't have male adams, so they can't even capture the Ashaman.  It'd be a brutal battle where the Black Tower is crushed and the Seachan are severely weakened.

 

Then in steps Rand and a huge force and the Seachen have no choice but to sign a peace treaty: March with the Dragon on Tarmon Gaidon and all sins are forgiven and we start on neutral ground when it's over.  The Seachen accept considering it's such a sweet deal (they get to attack and rule again, or try to, as soon as its all over).  And that's all there is to it.

 

As soon as Rand finds out the Seachen attack Tar Valon just to strike a blow at him, this plan should become immediately obvious.  It wouldn't be that hard to convince Fortuona that the Black Tower is the bigger threat with a few leaked intelligence reports.  When you have two enemies that don't get along, it usually pays off to let them kill each other first.  It occurs to me Brandon Sanderson would probably think of this and even prefer it, after reading Warbreaker, but I'm wondering what RJ's plans are.  I hope it doesn't involve a White Tower v. Black Tower war because that is so wasteful.

 

The Seanchan do have male adam.

[MystErikEry]

It's time for Rand to get clever.  He has a few problems that need to be dealt with.

 

The first is the Seachan

 

The second is the Black Tower

 

The third is, obviously, Tarmon Gaidon

 

The third problem is most important.  He has to decide what he needs to win.  I don't think vast numbers of warriors is going to win this for him.  Were that the case, they wouldn't really need the Dragon.  Lews Therin sealed the DO, albeit imperfectly, with nothing more than 100 Aes Sedai.  Rand already has the whole weight of the White Tower behind him (he'll know this soon).  He probably needs more than 100 channelers and thus he needs a lot more men than he currently has at his disposal.  The Black Tower needs to be divided.  The Black Tower needs to fall before he can fight Tarmon Gaidon.  The Seachan can't be his enemies during Tarmon Gaidon.  He needs his channelers devoted to fighting off the Black Ajah and remaining few Forsaken while he either takes on Moridin or leads a huge Aes Sedai/Ashaman circle to seal the DO's prison for good.  He can't win with the Black Tower the way it is and he can't win with the state of the Seachan the way it is.

 

The solution is easy.  Pit the Seachan against the Black Tower.  Let Logan know what is going on.  Play the darkfriend's own game, but play it better.  Let Logan and those loyal to him pretend to do battle with the Seachan, and when they show up to raid the Black Tower and deal a huge blow to the Dragon, kill Taim in the confusion and then travel out of there.  The Black Tower, without Logain's men, would probably be 100 men and 50 women strong.  They'd wreak havoc on the Seachen, but would ultimately lose.  The Seachan don't have male adams, so they can't even capture the Ashaman.  It'd be a brutal battle where the Black Tower is crushed and the Seachan are severely weakened.

 

Then in steps Rand and a huge force and the Seachen have no choice but to sign a peace treaty: March with the Dragon on Tarmon Gaidon and all sins are forgiven and we start on neutral ground when it's over.  The Seachen accept considering it's such a sweet deal (they get to attack and rule again, or try to, as soon as its all over).  And that's all there is to it.

 

As soon as Rand finds out the Seachen attack Tar Valon just to strike a blow at him, this plan should become immediately obvious.  It wouldn't be that hard to convince Fortuona that the Black Tower is the bigger threat with a few leaked intelligence reports.  When you have two enemies that don't get along, it usually pays off to let them kill each other first.  It occurs to me Brandon Sanderson would probably think of this and even prefer it, after reading Warbreaker, but I'm wondering what RJ's plans are.  I hope it doesn't involve a White Tower v. Black Tower war because that is so wasteful.

 

The Seanchan do have male adam.

 

No, they don't.  From what I recall, they kill male channelers.  They certainly don't collar them.

The male a'dam we've seen is pretty much the only one, though copies may have been made by this time...

[coteaz]

Actually they do, reread the chapter where the asha'man comes back from talking to them, he tells rand that they had them. And of course they have had ample opportunity to copy one since they had the original.

[MystErikEry]

Actually they do, reread the chapter where the asha'man comes back from talking to them, he tells rand that they had them. And of course they have had ample opportunity to copy one since they had the original.

 

Where?

 

What chapter?

 

I've been reading again and I can't find a mention anywhere.  Do you mean when they return from the meeting?  If so, nobody mentions it after that.  If before the meeting, I don't recall any Asha'man going to talk to them at all.

 

Besides, even if they did have male a'dam, I don't see them using them... they corrupt whomever is using them to attempt control over the male channeler, as well, unless two are sharing the burden, and I don't see any Seanchan choosing to attempt control over the Asha'man.  If anything, they'd slay them regardless, since they see them as crazy.

[Luckers]

Two points answer the Waygate question. One, not all the Waygates have been closed. Elder Hammen is seeking to convince the Stedding that refused Loial, but they were apparently numerous.

 

Two, a channeler can cut a hole through a locked Waygate, as Moiraine did in tEotW.

[Nakor]

Two points answer the Waygate question. One, not all the Waygates have been closed. Elder Hammen is seeking to convince the Stedding that refused Loial, but they were apparently numerous.

 

Two, a channeler can cut a hole through a locked Waygate, as Moiraine did in tEotW.

Didn't Rand just want to have the invisible traps around instead of actually closing them?

So the trollocs would die some distance from the gate and nobody knew why ...

[coteaz]

umm, its when rand is organizing the meeting, and the asha'man comes back and says that the seanchan dont think katar is an acceptable meeting place, then he mentions in passing the male adam they have, although i may be wrong ill have to reread it myself to make sure.

[Dorkfiend]

umm, its when rand is organizing the meeting, and the asha'man comes back and says that the seanchan dont think katar is an acceptable meeting place, then he mentions in passing the male adam they have, although i may be wrong ill have to reread it myself to make sure.

 

When Rand and his dynamic rockin' teen combo meet Semmi, he's shocked by the male a'dam.  Everyone is, except for Nynaeve, who gets angry at Egeanin.  And then they're shocked at Nynaeve for never telling them.

 

When we first meet Tuon she discusses with Selucia about how important it is for the secret of the male a'dam to remain secret until the last possible moment.

 

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to check that passage from CoT again.  What you think you see isn't what you see you saw.

 

[coteaz]

Not in CoT, its in TGS.

[Luckers]

Coteaz, its never said that the Seanchan have male a'dam. In KoD Rand and co. discover that the Domination Band given to Egeanin was copied, it remains unknown if the Seanchan retain some of those copies of if Semirhage controlled all of them.

 

As far as I recall the comment was that the Seanchan have Wise Ones leashed.

[coteaz]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

[Dorkfiend]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

 

I sit corrected.  You're right, it's not explicit, though.

 

Thanks!

[Luckers]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

 

Thats an assumption on Flinn's part. He did not see them.

[coteaz]

Okay i just reread the quote, and it Implies that they have them, but doesn't say explicitly, you guys decide.

 

"Are you certain?" Naeff asked quietly. "I don't like the way they look at me, my Lord. There's contempt in their eyes, every one of them. Contempt and pity, as if I'm some lost hound, searching for scraps behind the inn. Burn me, But it makes me sick."

"They've got those collars of theirs handy, my lord," Flinn said. "Flag of truce or not, they'll be itching to bind us all."

It seems to me that he is actually speaking as if he knows they exist and/or he has seen them.

Thats an assumption on Flinn's part. He did not see them.

 

How do you know its an assumption? We cannot know for sure.

[Daruya]

Is it too much to hope for that someone will slap an a'dam on Tuon (excuse me, Fortuana), forcing her to face the fact that: 1) she can channel; 2) she's not a monster or a "pet" just because she can; and 3) slavery of any sort is abominable.

 

Yeah, pie-in-the-sky wish . . .