Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[thewalrus777]

The Court of The Nine Moons should have been kind of a dead giveaway now that I think about it.

[Luckers]

It's sort of the combination of the 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' and 'Court of the Nine Moons' that makes it clear that the Empress is the 'Nine Moons' herself. I mean nations establish symbols of their state--the Lion Throne for instance--without it necessarily being a title for the ruler. The above combination proves it is so for the Empress.

 

Which really is only significant as an explanation of why Rand didn't succeed with Tuon, but will succeed with Fortuona.

[ed2funy]

*nods*

 

Yea....I could have told you that.... ::)

 

lol

[thewalrus777]

Awesome reasoning. You need to be drunk more often. ;D

[ed2funy]

good night (morn) everyone!!!!

 

i have to poo....lol

[Luckers]

Awesome reasoning. You need to be drunk more often. ;D

 

Lol. I really don't.

[ed2funy]

No comments on the Seanchan smelling like the poo?

 

I said it for a reason people!

We know the Seanchan smell....;)

[Diederichos]

I cannot believe the Seekers are being compared to the Whitecloaks. Look at Almurat Mor and then compare him to the likes of Asunawa or Eamon Valda, one is ruthless if honourable, the other two are just ruthless.

 

Also, the fact that the Seanchan believe everyone's basic needs must be met counts for nothing, right? That's what I thought. Along with believing that everyone's basic needs must be met(I.E. what Tuon thought of the people in the Rahad and there was another mention of this in book 4 or 5), they strive to create a society that is just even if the punishment for breaking the law is exceedingly brutal.

 

Now compare that to how we've seen the nobility to act in places outside of Andor, Tear or Cairhien for example. I think it's safe to say that for normal people, life under the Seanchan is much preferable given the fact that aside from not looking the oddly-shaved people in the eye and bowing low, I'm safe and I know the law protects me and the state can enforce the law.

 

Their society is very ruthless the higher-up one goes, but let's not say that they're any worse than other people in the Randland aside for the damane when for a fact we've been shown again and again that life under Seanchan is genuinely better than a lot of the other options.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

We do not know that at all, we know that life under dictators often looks a lot better for certain groups of people. We don't know what happens to people who are suffering. Well, that's the counter argument. I happen to agree with you.

 

 

But what you said about basic needs is interesting, ever since my girlfriend left me I've been needing some of that too. So in this society you say everyone's basic needs are met?

[Diederichos]

.

..

...

 

Moving on. Well, we do sorta know what happens to people who are suffering. For the poor, again look at their wanting to take care of them along with providing them for safety from crime. And in many ways, the Tinker are the best example of this, a people essentially distrusted and disliked from most others and look at them under the Seanchan. How they treat criminals and rebels, on the other hand, is extremely bloody I would think.

[ed2funy]

@Diederichos: We are not saying the that their whole system is bad.

The cleaning of the Rahad is a good thing, yes. Tylin never had enough power to do that.

 

But, slavery, especially damane disqualify them from being a perfect society.

Also, the Seekers.

When they think someone is guilty, they will find evidence, and they will see them dead.

 

Are you also happy that you might be sold at any moment? Or that if a Listener hears something that could be misinterpreted, you might have a sh*tload of trouble on your hands?

 

@Rocky: lol....i think you can pay for those basic needs... ;) lol...though it is illegal..:P Or go to a club....

 

EDIT NEW: I have already agreed that their justice is fair and good... :)

[Diederichos]

I never said they were perfect, but I think in many ways, compared to their contemporary societies in Randland, they are a lot better and certainly not deserving of all the flack they get. And I don't know that I would call the da'covale system a form of chattel slavery, in the latter, the slave doesn't have any rights do they?

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Yeah, good idea. So all I need is money, I'll do anything to get it as long as I don't have to rent my body to desparate woman - otherwise what would be the point ? I wouldn't need the money any more.

[ed2funy]

You don't say they are perfect, but they immediately deserve no flack?

Explain your logic....

 

I would have to say there is not much difference. you can still have a da'covale beaten, just because some people cannot do it themselves, does not make it better.

They just send them to other people to get beaten...

 

@Rocky: lmfao.....because they would so be all over you....:P

[Diederichos]

I never said they were perfect, but I think in many ways, compared to their contemporary societies in Randland, they are a lot better and certainly not deserving of all the flack they get. And I don't know that I would call the da'covale system a form of chattel slavery, in the latter, the slave doesn't have any rights do they?

 

But there's also what Egeanin said about people who can't control their property without having them beaten being sei'mosiev. The shame factor would also be something to consider. I think in many ways the da'covale is closer to maybe the eunuchs of Imperial China and the Janissaries of the Ottomans. A valued property and in certain cases a powerful one rather than just a beast of burden as in the Western world?

[Teslan]

I get the impression that torture of suspects/criminals/opponents to acquire evidence/confessions/treaties is common practice in all of the world.  Certainly almost every society we have seen uses them in some form or other.  Don't think we can criticise the Seanchen for that.

 

The poor are looked after - but they are, as I recall, made to work for it. One assumes a variation on workhouses.  A place for everyone and everyone in their place.  This can be good or bad dependent on your PoV.

 

Property being a hereditary state?  The interesting thing to this is the pride some property have in their positions. To our culture it is unthinkable, but I do not see a lot of misery there. Again, depends on your PoV.

 

Damane is the dealbreaker for most people.  But if I were unable to channel, in a world where marath'damane ruled as they did in Seander. Unchecked by oaths or attitudes not to use the power as a weapon. I think it would seem like a sensible position too.  Combine the need to avoid hundreds of channelers behaving in any way they wished, with the acceptence of humans as property and you get Damane.

 

vOv

 

I do not see the Seanchen as evil, I do see them as interesting and flawed.

[ed2funy]

I think it is just a little more closer to slavery.

Remember, it is not all da'covale. There are cupbearers... :P

 

Well, the flack we have been giving them has been about slavery, so....I was confused...

 

EDIT NEW:

I am not criticizing the Seanchan for it alone. I know all the other Randland nation/societies do it, but in this case, they have the authority from the gov't...and not just a few people, but a whole organization.

 

 

I don't think they are evil, just flawed more than people think...

 

I would rather live in Andor than in Seanchan controlled lands...

Most nations have soup houses that are supported by the throne...taking care of their people.....

 

[thewalrus777]

And to "own" a person no matter who they are, is slavery. And the Seanchan don't just servants, they also own damane. How could I trust a society that doesn't care what it's people think. And they don't. They don't just assume that people are willing give up their freedoms for security, and they don't ask them to, they force them. Their society is extremely flawed. Slavery on many levels. Their heirarchy is arrogant and believes them to be better than anyone else. Not to mention the country's entire basis on the HATRED of something that is given to people by the creator. The power to channel. I nation based around hatred is not one i would want to live in.

[ed2funy]

Not to mention now the Empress knows all sul'dam (including her) can channel.

Yet, she will try and keep it under cover.....

 

::)

[thewalrus777]

Once again if Tuon wasn't bound to Rand already by being married to Mat, she would definitely continue on her merry little way, even if according to her "customs" she shouldn't be allowed to have a solitary thought of her own. Everyone that rules and even in common folk, are flawed. It's the fact they take themselves and the things they say to be absolute, that is just terrible. That is not the basis for a good, well-rounded system of rule. It's seems like that happiness isn't a genuine feeling, but one of fear of consequences for having that "smile" on your face.

[Muad Cheade]

And to "own" a person no matter who they are, is slavery.

True, although in the millennia prior to the modern era, slavery was deemed necessary and was met with approval. Not saying it's good, just saying it was widespread in the early modern era (the period the WoT resembles). Also, their culture seems to be based more on a strict class structure (like India) than on slavery.

 

How could I trust a society that doesn't care what it's people think. And they don't. They don't just assume that people are willing give up their freedoms for security, and they don't ask them to, they force them. Their society is extremely flawed. Slavery on many levels.

Not sure what you're talking about. Can you give an example? The Seanchan seem to be very generous conquerors, and their lands are very more secure and safer than other nations without really affecting the common people's day to day lives.

 

Their heirarchy is arrogant and believes them to be better than anyone else.

Name a powerful nation past or present that that was not characteristic of.

 

Not to mention the country's entire basis on the HATRED of something that is given to people by the creator. The power to channel.

Their leashing of damane is the same reason male channelers are gentled and killed: they cannot be trusted with the One Power to use it as it should be correctly used and are a danger to those around them, as evidenced by their past actions. Their history was one where Aes Sedai heavily abused the Power and their roles as leaders.

 

Not to mention now the Empress knows all sul'dam (including her) can channel.

Yet, she will try and keep it under cover.....

 

::)

She believes that it does not count since she actively decides not to and will not embrace the Source. It is similar to the belief that while a man may have murderous thoughts, he is not a murderer until he actually pulls the trigger and kills.

[Sharaman]

The Seanchan version of slavery appears to have many sub-classes like feudal systems of Turkey, China, India, Russia. The senior hereditary slaves and the Deathwatch/ Seekers etc, have a large degree of independence in their lives. They get paid, run logistics for their masters, wander around unsupervised, etc. One key thing they don't have is employment flexibility - they can't quit the job.

At the other end, there's Liandrin, Suroth, Amathera and other slaves, who are treated like animals. 

So you're not necessarily talking "full reform" because the senior slaves, so to speak, are quite happy and well treated. You're talking about improving the lot of people at the bottom of the pyramid. Again, going by the Suroth example, this may be a class drawn from criminals just as the galley slaves of Rome were. Instead of having prisons, the Seanchan appear to sentence criminals to slavery and make them do dirty, dangerous jobs. That would make the Seanchan system of slavery less disgusting.

Sure if you're talking from 21st century perspective, it's bad but if the alternative is to let criminals rot to death in prison, it may not be so bad.

The attitude to channellers may change - that's a separate issue.  It's also very hot-button because the leashing is based to a large extent on fear. Maybe the smarter generals will back Tylee and also say that there are alternative ways to deal with Marath'damane. After all, they've been unable to wipe out the Seafolk, they've lost battles against Rand's forces, and in the raid against the WT, they've taken casualties as well.

Exposure to Randland societies has been an eye opener for the Seanchan. Remember that it's a very adaptable

military culture - they learn from their military errors. They could well start taking note of the fact that there are alternate employment systems. I can see pragmatic bureaucrats in the Seanchan Imperial Service writing notes to each other that suggest other systems based on non-slavery seem to work with locals in Tarabon, or Altara, for example.

 

[Diederichos]

The Seanchan version of slavery appears to have many sub-classes like feudal systems of Turkey, China, India, Russia. The senior hereditary slaves and the Deathwatch/ Seekers etc, have a large degree of independence in their lives. They get paid, run logistics for their masters, wander around unsupervised, etc. One key thing they don't have is employment flexibility - they can't quit the job.

At the other end, there's Liandrin, Suroth, Amathera and other slaves, who are treated like animals. 

So you're not necessarily talking "full reform" because the senior slaves, so to speak, are quite happy and well treated. You're talking about improving the lot of people at the bottom of the pyramid. Again, going by the Suroth example, this may be a class drawn from criminals just as the galley slaves of Rome were. Instead of having prisons, the Seanchan appear to sentence criminals to slavery and make them do dirty, dangerous jobs. That would make the Seanchan system of slavery less disgusting.

Sure if you're talking from 21st century perspective, it's bad but if the alternative is to let criminals rot to death in prison, it may not be so bad.

The attitude to channellers may change - that's a separate issue.  It's also very hot-button because the leashing is based to a large extent on fear. Maybe the smarter generals will back Tylee and also say that there are alternative ways to deal with Marath'damane. After all, they've been unable to wipe out the Seafolk, they've lost battles against Rand's forces, and in the raid against the WT, they've taken casualties as well.

Exposure to Randland societies has been an eye opener for the Seanchan. Remember that it's a very adaptable

military culture - they learn from their military errors. They could well start taking note of the fact that there are alternate employment systems. I can see pragmatic bureaucrats in the Seanchan Imperial Service writing notes to each other that suggest other systems based on non-slavery seem to work with locals in Tarabon, or Altara, for example.

 

 

I didn't know they got paid, where did you get that, I must have missed that part.

[ed2funy]

I don't think he meant literally, but if he did, I missed that part too.

[thewalrus777]

The Seanchan version of slavery appears to have many sub-classes like feudal systems of Turkey, China, India, Russia. The senior hereditary slaves and the Deathwatch/ Seekers etc, have a large degree of independence in their lives. They get paid, run logistics for their masters, wander around unsupervised, etc. One key thing they don't have is employment flexibility - they can't quit the job.

At the other end, there's Liandrin, Suroth, Amathera and other slaves, who are treated like animals. 

So you're not necessarily talking "full reform" because the senior slaves, so to speak, are quite happy and well treated. You're talking about improving the lot of people at the bottom of the pyramid. Again, going by the Suroth example, this may be a class drawn from criminals just as the galley slaves of Rome were. Instead of having prisons, the Seanchan appear to sentence criminals to slavery and make them do dirty, dangerous jobs. That would make the Seanchan system of slavery less disgusting.

Sure if you're talking from 21st century perspective, it's bad but if the alternative is to let criminals rot to death in prison, it may not be so bad.

The attitude to channellers may change - that's a separate issue.  It's also very hot-button because the leashing is based to a large extent on fear. Maybe the smarter generals will back Tylee and also say that there are alternative ways to deal with Marath'damane. After all, they've been unable to wipe out the Seafolk, they've lost battles against Rand's forces, and in the raid against the WT, they've taken casualties as well.

Exposure to Randland societies has been an eye opener for the Seanchan. Remember that it's a very adaptable

military culture - they learn from their military errors. They could well start taking note of the fact that there are alternate employment systems. I can see pragmatic bureaucrats in the Seanchan Imperial Service writing notes to each other that suggest other systems based on non-slavery seem to work with locals in Tarabon, or Altara, for example.

 

 

I didn't know they got paid, where did you get that, I must have missed that part.

 

I don't think they get paid. I think they are given food and shelter in exchange of their service to the Blood.