Mat's Plotline (Spoilers for the whole book)

[Sharaman]

If it's Saidin or TP based compulsion, it'll have to be Flinn or Rand himself.

Since Ishamel did the dirty, it won't be Saidar. If it's TP, there's a serious problem since Rand-LTT are both poor at healing even if he's willing to draw TP.

Logically Flinn should be the guy to do the job if its Saidin. I'm betting Flinn does meet up with Mat because he's the best shot at healing Setalle Anan - Martine Janata, and Mistress Anan has the best chance of convincing Fortuona that all marath'damane are not bad girls.

 

[lordofsoup]

I think it would be cool, if Noal touches Mat's medalion to his head, and it disipates all the compulsion. 

[mb]

Mat's medallion I take only dissipates weaves directed toward people touching it and only when it touches skin.

From Moiraine's Healing on Mat in Fires of Heaven, it does not dissipate weaves from times of it not touching skin.

 

[lordofsoup]

ya, i know wistful thinking.

[Calderis]

Nyn's defence of Mat is interesting given how ungracious she was about between TDR and CoS. It took Brigitte and Aviendha's combined urgings plus Elayne's persuasion for her to even say "Thank you" and to stop shouting at Mat.

She has really grown up. The other two supergirls still have huge flashes of immaturity and temper tantrums.

 

 

I don't see this as out of place for her at all, or even as a sign of her growth (although she has definitely grown). She still view's the Emond's Fielder's as "her people." It's like siblings who fight all the time. They'll squabble and bicker and be at each other's throat in an instant, but if someone outside the family try's saying the same things they just said about their little brother... "IT'S ON!"

 

If Tuon were a woman from Emond's Field and not the ruler of the Seanchan, you can almost bet Nyneave would have been agreeing wholeheartedly. Coming from someone like Tuon tho? Nyn ain't gonna stand for none of it.

[metaphor]

If it's Saidin or TP based compulsion, it'll have to be Flinn or Rand himself.

Since Ishamel did the dirty, it won't be Saidar. If it's TP, there's a serious problem since Rand-LTT are both poor at healing even if he's willing to draw TP.

Logically Flinn should be the guy to do the job if its Saidin. I'm betting Flinn does meet up with Mat because he's the best shot at healing Setalle Anan - Martine Janata, and Mistress Anan has the best chance of convincing Fortuona that all marath'damane are not bad girls.

 

 

Or it could be the 'Finns. They should have the ability to remove the compulsion(If there's any) and eventually restore his memories or something.

[MikeRiley]

I noticed something interesting that Suian told Mat in The Dragon Reborn. It seems like it could foreshadow Mat's trip into the ToG. The only flaw is we know that Mat's going to survive it.

 

    The Amyrlin gave an exasperated sigh. "You remind me of my uncle

Huan. No one could ever pin him down. He liked to gamble, too, and

he'd much rather have fun than work. He died pulling children out of a

burning house. He wouldn't stop going back as long as there was one

left inside. Are you like him, Mat? Will you be there when the flames

are high?"

 

I can see Mat being thrown out but going back in again. Maybe after they all get out he'll learn Olver went in to help and he'll go back after him?

[WolfDragonFox]

Its unlikely that the medallion will be used to do that for Noal but i love the idea...because it unweaves it at contact as far as i can see from how i interpret it to work so it shouldn't in theory damage his mind because it will be unwoven perfectly after contact so no little intricacies will be left to give him brain damage....thats my hope for the theory tho.

[Shadow Rider]

Mat refuses to kill woman.... do you think he will be pushed to it like Rand?

I think Olver could die at the hands of a Black AS, this could bring him to kill a woman....

[FarShainMael]

Mat has already killed three women: a woman in a village near Caemlyn who was in a group that attacked him and Thom (tDR Ch44), Melindhra (tFoH Ch 51), and Renna (CoT Ch 29). Then he thinks to himself that he will never kill a woman again, even if it is his life - which may be a foreshadowing.

 

[FarShainMael]

Moved this over from the 'crazy Finns' thread..

 

The 'trickster' attribute has led to some drawing a parallel between Mat and the Norse god Loki:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/character-parallels-mat.html

The Norse trickster Loki resembles Mat at his most immature...  Loki is not properly one of the Aesir, he is an outsider. Likewise, Mat is too much of the rogue or vagabond to be taken seriously by others and is often a wild card. Like Loki, he can spin inventive yarns (such as those for the aborted raid on Trustair) and disguise people(eg his group when escaping Ebou Dar, and perhaps himself if he takes Verin's advice to lie low (The Gathering Storm, The Death of Tuon)) to get out of trouble.

 

Also:

http://www.mysteriousbritain.co.uk/pantheons/loki-the-trickster.html

 

Loki was eventually taken and bound by the other gods who had become seriously annoyed with him. This, together with Perrin's dream of Mat 'naked and bound', with only his spear and his medallion, has further led to a suggestion that Mat will be trapped by the 'finns, probably during the rescue attempt at the ToG:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/mat-naked-and-bound.html

 

Possibly this may result in Tuon having to ride to Mat's rescue, just in time for TG!!

 

(Incidentally, recalling that the Eelfinn wear harnesses of human skin, there is a nice foreshadowing in WH Ch28. Mat and Tylin are in bed talking. Mat thinks about the scars on his skin:

 

"One way or another he had acquired quite a few, though not for want of trying to avoid them. His hide would not bring much at an auction, that was for sure.."  )

 

[WolfDragonFox]

Well you gotta realize tho that Mat shouldn't really have to kill any woman again since we should be seeing Tuon by his side at all times as soon as an agreement is made between Seanchan and Rand.  So Tuon will be doing all the lady killing for him...i hope your wrong about that foreshadowing and maybe it only results in wounding not Death...maybe part of the half the light of the world prophecy.

[Telamon7]

 

 

I do agree with Jonn, as I've told him personally.

 

The change in Mat is in the way he's WRITTEN, not in some change that is perceived to have happened to his personality. What is the big chatechism between the end of KoD and the beginning of TGS? He married Tuon and sent her away, but he was basically resigned to that fact throughout that entire book, and we had plenty of POV of him in that book to see how he felt about it. In any case, finally completing a ceremony that you knew was inevitable isn't enough to turn one person into a completely different person. (Let alone enough to completely, radically change a friend as well -- Talmanes.)

 

To those who say that Mat didn't change, I daresay you haven't read Mat's sections in previous books as frequently or as closely as those MANY of us who are uncomfortable about the change. If you spell his name "Matt", that's a pretty good indication that you're not paying close enough attention.

 

And frankly Vambram, if you peruse the threads on this board, or on any of the many other discussion sites going right now, back when people were just starting to finish the book, you will find many, many people who noted the difference in the way BS wrote Mat and the way RJ did. Some people may say "I noticed the difference, but it didn't bother me." Or "I noticed the difference, but I still love the book." And that's fine. I didn't mind the book myself. But I can't condone writing Mat as if he were a 21st century character, and making such a complete switcheroo with Talmanes.

 

And the point is that acting like no one else sees a difference between KoD Mat and TGS Mat, just because YOU don't see a difference, doesn't fly. Too many people have also noted the anomaly for it to be nit-pickers or arbitrary complainers.

 

I felt Mat was written like.... perhaps above-average fanfic. RJ had a deft hand with the humorous running joke of "I'm not going to do such-and-such. I'm not going to do it. No way will I do it. Nope!" when you know they're going to do it in the end. He used it with most of the characters at one point or another. BS hasn't mastered that, for me, yet. I didn't find it funny, just obvious.

 

The section about Mat creating the aliases would have been amusing if it wasn't SO out-of-character. It also read as a really contemporary thing to do. Mat has never liked writing, I can't see him sitting down and writing pages of backstory in this setting. It doesn't even really make sense in his plan--it wasn't necessary. The scene was JUST put in for a laugh, but it was way out of place. What, did Mat take a creative writing course at some point along the way?

 

Just because you enjoyed or really loved the book, or really appreciate BS for writing the book (not like hundreds of other authors wouldn't have leaped at the opportunity anyhow, so it's not like he did us some favor), doesn't mean that you have to act like the book was written flawlessly. BS said he wasn't going to try to mimic RJ's style because it would be disrespectful (how again?), but I think that was a tactical mistake. For the sake of the fans and the unity of the series, now and years and years in the future when some kid in a futuristic library picks up EotW and starts this series, I think he should have attempted to preserve one continuous voice throughout the rest of the series.

 

I haven't read through even half of this thread yet, and I don't know what has been discussed later on, but I had to add my emphatic agreement to this comment. I couldn't agree more, Hannah, and I couldn't have said it better. I expected Mat to be gradually changing, all the while railing against that change and denying it even as it becomes increasingly obvious. I expected something like, for example, he goes into a tavern and decides to join a game of dice, insisting that he wont stop gambling just because he's married. As he plays he finds himself wondering what his wife would think of his hobby. He remembers that she watched him dice in the so called "hell", but did she approve? He was shocked as he realized he actually cared if she did. He wanted her approval. Something like that. Or he calls for wine or ale and a pretty, big-eyed young serving girl gives him a smile and a wink as she brings his cup, and he doesn't try to flirt, maybe he doesn't even smile back. Even more likely he just nods and thanks her, tossing her a silver or gold crown, never once thinking to himself about a little kiss and a cuddle. He does it subconsciously, without having to tell himself to do it. He realizes this and is horrified, or just denies it and makes an excuse that has nothing to do with him being newlywed. Maybe he intends to get drunk, and wonders to himself what Tuon thinks of a man who likes his drink. He didn't want his wife to think of him as a drunk. These are really bad examples, but they are the types of things I expected, along with a growing sense of new-found responsibility and duty. Small, incremental changes that added together had the people around him looking at him differently.

 

I'm not bashing Sanderson, and as a whole I really liked the book, and I consider it a nice addition to the series. I just didn't like the way Mat was written. There are people here on this site who have been reading this series for a long, long time. The characters feel like life-long friends, people - not just characters in a book - that they identify and connect with, and I value their opinions. To be honest I don't even comment on here much, because they ask and answer just about every question I have by themselves, without me ever having to put that question to words. If their opinions lead them to it, they have an absolute right to be upset and even pissed.

 

I apologize, no doubt this will appear as a random post, but I'm back in the beginning of the thread and I just had to comment on this. Don't let me draw you away from what you were discussing.

 

 

 

 

[BeckeyLee]

Ok, here's my input on the new Mat.

 

Frankly I don't really care much if he seems to have changed or not, and why he has changed.

I definitely think the whole ordeal of waiting to marry Tuon, not knowing when it was going to happen, then it happening so suddenly right before she leaves, had to cause some confusion within himself.

I love the way Mat's POV was done in this book. One of the reasons I've always liked him is because all he wants in life is to find a girl to pinch, have a few drinks, and play a game of dice. He likes to have fun, yet still does his duty, even if he is whining and trying to run away the whole time.

It was a wonderful break amongst all the drama in this book. Between Rand's increasing brooding and gloominess and Egwene's ordeal in the White Tower we needed a good laugh now and then.

His crazy scheme upon entering Trustair was so ridiculous it was hilarious. We haven"t seen him do anything like that in quite sometime, and I think himn being so frazzled over Tuon and the event at Hinderstap had him going way overboard.

Speaking of Hinderstap, I loved it. It may not have had anything to do with the plot, but it was a chilling and awesome scene.

As for Talmanes, I really feel the reason for his different personality, is just that Mat is finally starting to understand him better. I love his sarcastic sense of humor and how he is handling Mat's current craziness.

"Uh huh. Sure Mat. Whatever you say Emperor Matt. (snicker-snicker)"

 

Overall I love Mat's POV and can't wait until they head after Moiraine.

[NoGuessing]

I'm going to laugh long and loud if it turns out that Mat's chapters were already written up by RJ (we don't know who wrote up what.) In fact, BS would have been following RJs notes, so his character is likely accurate.

 

I loved the Mat scenes in this book. I've loved them ever since he stopped being a little twit back in the early books. I didn't notice anything wrong.

[Beer Rot]

I'm going to laugh long and loud if it turns out that Mat's chapters were already written up by RJ (we don't know who wrote up what.) In fact, BS would have been following RJs notes, so his character is likely accurate.

 

I loved the Mat scenes in this book. I've loved them ever since he stopped being a little twit back in the early books. I didn't notice anything wrong.

 

Don't think of it as Sander's Mat, just think of it as Mat the husband.

 

everyone knows getting married does weird things to your mind.

[Fadehunter]

One thing that has bothered me in the last few books is how much emphasis that is put on Olver's looks.  Does anyone else think this is odd?

 

The only reason i think this is relevant is that he may be Gaidal Cain.  We know he had left Birgitte in the Dreamworld, so he has been born.  The timeline for the Dreamworld and the real world is kind of screwy though.  Nynaeve saw Gaidal Cain with Brigitte in the Dreamworld.

 

Just making some noise.

[Durinax]

One thing that has bothered me in the last few books is how much emphasis that is put on Olver's looks.  Does anyone else think this is odd?

 

The only reason i think this is relevant is that he may be Gaidal Cain.  We know he had left Birgitte in the Dreamworld, so he has been born.  The timeline for the Dreamworld and the real world is kind of screwy though.  Nynaeve saw Gaidal Cain with Brigitte in the Dreamworld.

 

Just making some noise.

unless the time difference is multiple years olver cannot be gaidal. but it is curious why so much emphasis has been on olvers looks

[Tom Sawyer]

One thing that has bothered me in the last few books is how much emphasis that is put on Olver's looks.  Does anyone else think this is odd?

 

The only reason i think this is relevant is that he may be Gaidal Cain.  We know he had left Birgitte in the Dreamworld, so he has been born.  The timeline for the Dreamworld and the real world is kind of screwy though.  Nynaeve saw Gaidal Cain with Brigitte in the Dreamworld.

 

Just making some noise.

 

I think that RJ said at one point that Olver wasn't Gaidal Cain.  I always thought he was too before I heard that.

 

I think he's being built up to be a character in the Mat-Tuon trilogy after WoT is done.  Hopefully, he starts it out by killing Tuon and Mat can spend the rest of the trilogy finding himself a woman who doesn't suck so badly.

 

[Fadehunter]

 

unless the time difference is multiple years olver cannot be gaidal. but it is curious why so much emphasis has been on olvers looks

 

I was thinking that as well.  Maybe time is not linear in the WoD?

 

It just bothers me that the emphasis has been so great on his looks AND Birgitte seems to be taken with him.

[Sharaman]

From the CoT signing tour. Jan 2003

Dayton Ohio

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?

RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.

Q: He's too old.

RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.

Q: Is the difference in time constant?

RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.

Q: It's different for different people, then?

RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

----------------

This should answer some questions.