No, Balefire Does Not Work Like that. (-- 2009 Empy Award Winner!)

[Nightstrike]

By the way, travelling at the speed of light would be impossible even if we had limitless energy for a starship. There are other things that would make it impossible. That has absolutely nothing to do with Balefire, though. Can't be mentioned in the same sentence.

 

This world =/= WoT

 

[coteaz]

I also do remember BF affecting inanimate objects. The Black Ajah with the BF rod blasted areas of the palace (Stones and columns to before they were erected causing the remaining objects to fall). It also does not describe her drawing a large amount of OP but the blasts were long almost continuous.

 

Umm, balefire would definitely damage them, and would make them fall, but im not sure if it erased them before they were erected, if im wrong provide a quote please :)

[elmis]

If only he had BF'ed her a few weeks before. Hindsight, eh? :)

[richnewton82]

.

[elmis]

I also do remember BF affecting inanimate objects. The Black Ajah with the BF rod blasted areas of the palace (Stones and columns to before they were erected causing the remaining objects to fall). It also does not describe her drawing a large amount of OP but the blasts were long almost continuous.

 

Umm, balefire would definitely damage them, and would make them fall, but im not sure if it erased them before they were erected, if im wrong provide a quote please :)

 

Best proof of this is Nyn in the boat in Ebou Dar.

 

Not only does the boat skip back a few(?) meters, but in one second she's above water, the next she's underwater.

 

Meaning the BF burned a hole in the boat, making it take on water for a time before it got the hole. The same happened with the poor oarsmen, who died before they rowed the distance.

 

 

[elmis]

I really don't understand how people are carrying on this argument over Min's bruises. While the actions of the victim may be removed, the memory remains. Such as Mat recalling the Darkhound slobbering on him, yet there was no trace of it. With Semirhage and Rand, she was controlling his actions but they were still his actions. The memory of the control remains, thus Rand still performs the action.

 

If Semirhage is causing something by her will it cannot be thought of as solely Rand's actions.  It seems balefire might do funny things to causality though.

 

This is actually a good catch - didn't think about it when I read the book. It all depends on the amount of power Rand used though. I assume it was just a few seconds worth of BF, any longer and the buises should be gone - and any longer than that, the collar would never have been on him.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Elmis, after Rand had balefired Semi, her actions no longer existed, but his did. So, in effect, she never forced him to choke Min, but he had still done it. It was an indirect result of her actions, and only direct results are removed, except from the memory of those nearby. The bruises were a direct result of Rand's actions (aka choking her), so they stay.

 

A few days ago someone had suggested that since Semi was balefired Rand had never been collared, hence he never channeled the True Power to remove the collar. The reports of the dark aura around him (similar to Ba'alzamon)later in the book show the effects of using the TP lingered.

 

It is really confusing at first, especially with all of the conflicting opinions here, but thankfully Brandon confirmed the whole direct/indirect action thing at a signing the other day.

[elmis]

Did not know that. Thanks for the info Jaric.

 

How much easier all this would have been to follow if BF didn't burn the thread backwards. ;)

[jemron]

I am now at peace about this.  BS and Team Jordan did not make a mistake.  Semi was BFd, not Rand, so the bruises stay.  Simple.  To the point.  Makes sense.

 

BF does not reset time, it just reworks the pattern around the loss of a person who no longer exists in the timeline because they were BFd.  Whether or not Rand had control of his actions, he is still the one who did it.

 

Edit: It is very possible (and even likely) that the BWB and the Aes Sedai in the current age (read: Moiraine) are misinformed, and RJ intentionally made it confusing to people in the current age.  the BWB is not necessarily "canon."  It is supposed to have flaws intentionally.

[jwillis7]

So i had this thought, didn't when Rand Balefired Sem, didn't he say that he was holding more power than he was with CK.  So If he balefired her with more and his had did not grow back, doesen't that mean that even if he used all he could even with CK, when he balefired Graendal, she could not go back in time longer than form when rand got his had blown off to when he killed Sem.  So Asmodean could never come back in this way.  I don't know if this has been brought up if so sorry. 

[richnewton82]

.

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, you've acted smug and condescending throughout most of the threads.

 

I think that is completely perception based. You accuse me of smugness but you've insulted me (to date, called me an ass, told me to get an education, and told me my ideas are nonsense without even offering a counter argument for why time must exist) and said the author himself is wrong. I think the problem is that I usually type in very direct and short sentences. People construe this as smugness. I think I'm being pretty darn calm, all things considered and considering that I've, according to BS himself, been right on the Balefire issue. When I'm wrong I admit I'm wrong (see the the thread about males controlling a link where I was wrong), unlike yourself. So I'm really having some trouble understanding why you think I'm smug but maybe because I'm not letting you simply bully me that constitutes smugness?

 

And accusing me of only mentioning "two vaguely scientific things" ignores Compton scattering, quantum entanglement- I was not throwing these terms out for fun. I was waiting on your response- these are specific items that can be used as a basis for elucidation. I could, I suppose, have left it at "Dirac's multiple universes theorem, which Jordan has apparently used as part of the basis of WoT (Portal Stones), provides a mechanism via which lateral shifts of the Pattern could occur"- but since I'm likely the only one who understands what the hell I mean by Dirac's multiple universes theorem on this forum, that wouldn't exactly prove useful, now would it?

 

You edited those into your post so I'm sorry I did not throw them in as well. I understand the idea of multiple universes but it is completely unproven. Of course, I've only read a little about them and know how they work in theory so you can continue to say that you are more educated and that bringing things up over everybody's heads isn't neccessary. Sure multiple universes fits in well with our understanding quantum but it isn't fact and the role it would play in any kind of time travel scenario is conjecture only currently.

 

Many things in WoT could be construed as being similar to ideas proposed in physics but that could also be pure happenstance. I doubt RJ used sum over histories to create his portal worlds. They are a plot device. Just as the wheel of time is. Surely you don't think time in the WoT universe works like time in this physics universe? It is circular rather than linear. That's a huge difference.

 

 

 

 

Just becuase you refuse to acknowledge does not make any of my points invalid. Now, multiple universes is not proven, neither is it disproven, but selection is necessary in developing any cosmology. Further, you are the one arguing that balefire cannot undo things that have happened, which places you squarely in the real world, with real world physics as application.

 

Now, you can doubt Jordan did something, doesn't mean he did or did not.

 

As to circular time- you are apparently not familiar with the cyclic universe theory, which does fit the Wheel of Time cosmology. In a manner of speaking.

 

I did not edit in things like Compton scattering- I mentioned much of it far earlier. That is basic second-year physics work, this gives me a basis.

 

And I am not judging based on terse sentences. I am assessing based on your statements regarding emotion, using them to preface your posts.

 

The way Sanderson set up balefire need not be consistent with Jordan's balefire- the fact he clarified that he and Harriet had needed to discuss it shows that he is aware he may not be right, and that they were guessing. Unfortunately, we are reduced to "this is how Sanderson did it," which does nothing about elucidating the entire balefire question.

 

If you want to debate whether my bringing up my qualifications is or is not relevant, then you must assess your constant attempts at name-dropping.

 

Nightstrike: You are too defensive. I am forced to take this as a concession. You are now insisting that WoT is different to our world. Therefore, your textual interpretation is an interpretation, and someone having a different interpretation, barring the author's own flat statements, is just as valid. Sorry.

 

Apologies for the brief post, I am in a hurry.

 

EDIT: Actually, rich, the memories remain. The DO has no option to have noticed, because reality was different at the time. The DO notices that they have been dead, and he already would need to have been acting, to avoid losing their soul. He is trapped by time.

[coteaz]

Best proof of this is Nyn in the boat in Ebou Dar.

 

Not only does the boat skip back a few(?) meters, but in one second she's above water, the next she's underwater.

 

Meaning the BF burned a hole in the boat, making it take on water for a time before it got the hole. The same happened with the poor oarsmen, who died before they rowed the distance.

 

Actually the boat went backwards because the rowers were dead and they stopped rowing, the hole was made in that time, but the boat went backwards becase there had been no one to row that distance in x seconds.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike: You are too defensive. I am forced to take this as a concession. You are now insisting that WoT is different to our world.  

"Now insisting"!!! That's what I've been saying in every post. Every one! Oh, and by the way, WoT is different to our world.

 

Therefore, your textual interpretation is an interpretation, and someone having a different interpretation, barring the author's own flat statements, is just as valid. Sorry.

There is only one possible interpretation of what happens when people are BFed. The correct one. Nothing else is valid. Sorry.

 

 

 

[jwillis7]

The most important evidence of all is really that the DO cannot transmigrate a soul of a person killed by balefire. If time rewound and replayed, the person would die, time would go back, the DO would notice a Chosen had just died but probably wouldn't have seen the cause, would know that meant balefire, and would transmigrate them. Time doesn't replay though. The DO misses that opportunity to nab the soul before it goes on to wherever souls go between being used in the pattern.

 

i don't know, if Moghedian can import Birgitte, soul into the pattern without the wheel wanting it.  Then i am pretty sure the DO can put souls when ever he wants to.  i don't think the DO can put Forsaken... wait did you call them CHOSEN, darkfriend i name you... now that we have that out of the way, that have been balefired back into the pattern is because there thread was burned out of the pattern not just put aside as i feel other threads  are.  if there is nothing to put aside then there is nothing to put back in.  I don't think it has anything to do with time, because as we have seen through the whole book time does not matter to the DO if things don't work this time he will just try again, with everything we have seen i think it is clear that there is no "perfect" time that the DO has to get the souls to reput into the pattern. I think he does it when he wants

[BrainFireBob]

Nightstrike: You are too defensive. I am forced to take this as a concession. You are now insisting that WoT is different to our world.  

"Now insisting"!!! That's what I've been saying in every post. Every one! Oh, and by the way, WoT is different to our world.

 

Therefore, your textual interpretation is an interpretation, and someone having a different interpretation, barring the author's own flat statements, is just as valid. Sorry.

There is only one possible interpretation of what happens when people are BFed. The correct one. Nothing else is valid. Sorry.

 

 

 

 

Provide.

 

Proof.

 

If you ever say "to me" in your proof, realize it's an interpretation.

[Nightstrike]

Proof.

Several people have given proof. Try rereading the series. By they way, how about that time-machine of yours. Wouldn't you explain it to us?

[BrainFireBob]

Proof.

Several people have given proof. Try rereading the series. By they way, how about that time-machine of yours. Wouldn't you explain it to us?

 

Several people have been very firm about how they interpret things.

 

You are attempting to divert the argument now. I've given the primary criteria required. Your anger and hostility doesn't do your argument much credit.

[Nightstrike]

Several people have been very firm about how they interpret things.

No, they've pointed out the truth. How it happened in the books.

 

You are attempting to divert the argument now. I've given the primary criteria required. Your anger and hostility doesn't do your argument much credit.

Which of them? Your time machine, or the Balefire?

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

Several people have been very firm about how they interpret things.

No, they've pointed out the truth. How it happened in the books.

 

Which is open to discussion and interpretation, given what we know of the mechanism. Just because it doesn't make sense to how you think, doesn't mean that's not how it's structured in the story.

 

Your attempts tp denigrate me by referring to "my" time machine, by the way, are a child's tactic. If you really want to be taken seriously, I suggest not using it. Or shouting.

[Nightstrike]

No, it was very well described in the books. No "interpretation" needed.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, don't pull real world "time traveling" into any discussion of Balefire.

[BrainFireBob]

No, it was very well described in the books. No "interpretation" needed.

 

If you want to be taken seriously, don't pull real world "time traveling" into any discussion of Balefire.

 

What is described in the books is inconsistent with what Sanderson did. If you wish to maintain you have a vlaid point, you can provide textual evidence to support, instead of immature didactic repetition and shouting.

 

And I didn't bring up the time travel argument. Your memory is faulty.

[Nightstrike]

What is described in the books is inconsistent with what Sanderson did.

No. You're repeating this mantra, even though people have provided evidence from the series.

 

If you wish to maintain you have a vlaid point, you can provide textual evidence to support, instead of immature didactic repetition and shouting.

Read the series. And what other people have posted.

 

 

 

[jemron]

 

 

What is described in the books is inconsistent with what Sanderson did. If you wish to maintain you have a vlaid point, you can provide textual evidence to support, instead of immature didactic repetition and shouting.

 

And I didn't bring up the time travel argument. Your memory is faulty.

 

How balefire is described by characters in the book and how balefire acts/works in the books are two different things.  I think this is the point here.  Balefire functions a certain way.  Moiraine and the BWB explain it as functioning slightly differently...  They are most likely misinformed.  RJ does this alot.  Legend becomes myth and even myth is long forgotten...  People's understanding of things in the WoT are not necessarily how those things actually are in the WoT world.

 

I'm not balefire expert, but as far as I can tell, each time it is actually used in the books, the results are the same.  Time does not reset, the actions of the people who were directly balefired never happened, so the pattern corrects itself the best that it can.  This seems to me to be how it always works in the books, not how it is explained by other characters in the books.

[WWWwombat]

The most important evidence of all is really that the DO cannot transmigrate a soul of a person killed by balefire. If time rewound and replayed, the person would die, time would go back, the DO would notice a Chosen had just died but probably wouldn't have seen the cause, would know that meant balefire, and would transmigrate them. Time doesn't replay though. The DO misses that opportunity to nab the soul before it goes on to wherever souls go between being used in the pattern.

 

So i had this thought, didn't when Rand Balefired Sem, didn't he say that he was holding more power than he was with CK.  So If he balefired her with more and his had did not grow back, doesen't that mean that even if he used all he could even with CK, when he balefired Graendal, she could not go back in time longer than form when rand got his had blown off to when he killed Sem.  So Asmodean could never come back in this way.  I don't know if this has been brought up if so sorry.  

 

I think the feeling of the TP rivals that of the OP. We have been told it is such ecstasy that it feels painful. Just like when the DO speaks into your mind at SG. I don't think the actual strength of the TP rivals the CK though, otherwise the Chosen would have won long ago.

 

I don't think anyone but you is talking about time replaying so much as past events being rewritten.  That being aid, it seems your camp is right about balefire according to BS although I would like more clarity on the matter from BS or someone else official.