The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Luckers]

She wasn't 'stuck for a few books'. She left halfway through KoD and met him in the next books--only a few weeks had passed, chronologically.

[Sharaman]

Some thoughts on Messy.

She would NOT pose as novice or accepted - they are rarely allowed privacy and their freedom of movement is restricted and they are continually under testing and observation.

Ditto for freedom of movement, lack thereof, hence NOT a servant

 

Hence she is posed as AS

NOT posed as BA - her heart members would know her very well.

At first glance, by temperament, most likely to pose as Brown, or maybe White, Yellow or, at a stretch Gray.

She is using MoM to pose as Ageless.

 

Would therefore NOT feature on Verin's List assuming no False Positives in Verin's deduction algorithms since Verin would have eliminated the real sister before Messy was freed from the Bore.

 

She MAY have been captured by the Seanchan

She MAY be able to slip by the Oath Rod test as she is not a (mere) Darkfriend and can say this with conviction

But she would NOT want to be held by a binder since she knows all the nasty side effects

Even if she was confident that she could forswear the oaths, it's painful

She MAY have been wandering outside TV uncommitted and Travelling into TV only whenever she wanted to give instructions or was summoned by the call box she gave Alviarin

Or She MAY be a non-BA sisters who fled the tower or was sent out recently on mission

 

She is perhaps, NOT a sitter, despite the liberal hints that she may be the Dreamy Brown because Sitters are, by and large, well-known to their Ajah and any minor lapses would be more likely to be noticed.

 

Verin knows she's there and V would have a very good chance of picking up a Brown who was behaving oddly or betraying either unusual knowledge or lack of it. Browns are scholars and specialists. If Verin discovered that a Brown had suddenly made interesting breakthroughs in her "Chosen" field or betrayed surprising ignorance, she would add 2+2. This logic also holds good for other Browns visavis anybody masquerading as a Brown. A scholar may not notice what another scholar looks like but would definitely notice changes in their body of work. Hence, Messy may not (note lack of uppercase) be Brown at all. 

 

Hence Messy is somewhat more likely to be Gray (they travel on mysterious political stuff and therefore often lead solitary existences and this would be helpful in disguise) or Yellow, (also into arcana, but not quite as broadly scholarly as Browns, and Messy probably knows enough healing to pass). Maybe even a White - pure logic and philosophy is something Messy can surely handle peacefully.

 

We still don't have enough information to nail her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

My thoughts on the Mesaana conundrum...

 

So she is not uncovered during the purge, and worse she's unaccounted for, the only three viable options being both unlikely by Egwene's standards, and impossible by our own (RJ said we'd seen Mesaana's disguise on screen). So the question is, where is she at now? As I see it we're left with three options at the end of tGS.

 

1. She was captured by the Seanchan.

2. She was posing as a sister Verin identified as Black Ajah, and fled with the rest.

3. She found some way to evade the oaths and remains in the Tower as a seemingly light-bound Aes Sedai.

 

She was captured by the Seanchan.

 

Now, Egwene doesn't think much of this idea based on her belief that its unlikely that a Forsaken could be taken by surprise, but Mesaana was something of an idiot--a fact Egwene was not aware of. Frankly I could see her taken that way.

 

She was posing as a sister Verin identified as Black Ajah, and fled with the rest.

 

Egwene doesn't consider this option, but it is viable. Of course the problem is, why would Mesaana replace a black sister? It limits her--she'd either have to kill a darkfriend, or restrict her movements in the fear of having two of her walk around.

 

On the other hand maybe the person Mesaana replaced wasn't black, but Mesaana herself did things that led Verin to concluding she was black. *shrug*

 

She found some way to evade the oaths and remains in the Tower as a seemingly light-bound Aes Sedai.

 

People have used Lanfear as an example of how a Forsaken may disavow being a darkfriend, though I question whether it would be as easy to say under a binding of truth--remember Lanfear was trying to decieve Mat.

 

The other idea seems to be the possibility that the Dark One could overcome the oath for her. Given that he seems distracted with his own problems I don't reguard this as likely. Still its possible.

 

 

On the idea of her not being an Aes Sedai--Graendal's comment in the prologue seems to lock it in that she was, but there is also considerably more evidence out there against the idea--I suggest people read the WoTFAQ entry on Mesaana. The same reasons that wasn't plausible before tGS still apply now.

 

[ed2funy]

Just a quick note here:

 

In the hunt for the BA, "ordered" by Elaida, the sisters test being freed of the oaths and retaking them.

 

When they do free themselves, they say it was excruciatingly painful, and it took them awhile to recover...

 

BUT, when Egwene has the Rebel Hall test, Romanda only takes a small intake of breath, a hiss.

So, does it hurt or not???

[Durinax]

Just a quick note here:

 

In the hunt for the BA, "ordered" by Elaida, the sisters test being freed of the oaths and retaking them.

 

When they do free themselves, they say it was excruciatingly painful, and it took them awhile to recover...

 

BUT, when Egwene has the Rebel Hall test, Romanda only takes a small intake of breath, a hiss.

So, does it hurt or not???

I thoguht that the hunters took all 3 off at once, whereas egwene had them take one off (I assumed all this)

[Luckers]

No they removed all the oaths, Romanda was just unwilling to show weakness.

[Agelmar]

Most likely Mesaana took off as soon as the Seanchan attacked.  She had three options:

 

1) Fight and risk discovery by fighting to her full abilities

2) Fight and risk capture by not fighting to her full abilities

3) Evade

[coteaz]

I Couldn't agree more, Messy leaving is my primary thoughts atm, and did the BA leave before the attack or after?

[Vorkia]

Wait how come she wouldn't pose as a servant or an initiate?  She is a forsaken and can easily use compulsion to cover up her being where she shouldn't be or to make people think she was doing what was normal for her station while walking freely.  Besides, didn't we learn that the Forsaken are willing to make sacrifices in order to obtain their objective?  She could willingly subjugate herself in order to work from within the Tower.

 

Besides, unless she posed as a newly raised sister (who would be well known since they were recently initiates) she does not have that ageless face that is synonymous with Aes Sedi.  Not to mention, posing as someone who actually existed poses problems in that the more features you change about yourself with Illusion, the harder it is to create and maintain the weave.  It is more practical to change only a few features, enough to give you a different appearance.  Besides, do we even know if it is possible to change your appearance so much you can pass as a another person entirely?  

 

Then there is her strength with the OP.  We know it is possible to hide that you can channel but I don't think you can hide only a partial amount to make it appear you are weaker than you actually are.  And I'm sure that someone with Messi's strength is something people would take note of in this day and age.  Besides Alvarian noted that she could not sense the source with her when they met.

 

It seems more logical to assume she is posing as a servant or a worker within the tower (or someone who has taken shelter in the Tower) where she would only have to change a few key features with herself and she can hide her ability to channel.

[Sharaman]

Wait how come she wouldn't pose as a servant or an initiate?  She is a forsaken and can easily use compulsion to cover up her being where she shouldn't be or to make people think she was doing what was normal for her station while walking freely.  Besides, didn't we learn that the Forsaken are willing to make sacrifices in order to obtain their objective?  She could willingly subjugate herself in order to work from within the Tower.

 

Inconvenience would be the problem not subjugation. Accepted and Novices are always in the company of each other and being minded/ taught by AS. Ditto servants. Why would she want to use compulsion regularly to readjust her schedule and ensure she wasn't discovered? The more she has to tinker with other people's minds and memories, the more chances there are of being discovered. Also Accepted-Novices are constantly tested for their OP skills - again this increases the chances of her making a slip in company. 

 

Besides, unless she posed as a newly raised sister (who would be well known since they were recently initiates) she does not have that ageless face that is synonymous with Aes Sedi.  Not to mention, posing as someone who actually existed poses problems in that the more features you change about yourself with Illusion, the harder it is to create and maintain the weave.  It is more practical to change only a few features, enough to give you a different appearance.  Besides, do we even know if it is possible to change your appearance so much you can pass as a another person entirely?  

 

Messy has to pose as somebody who did exist if she's going to infiltrate the tower. She's using an ageless face, which is somewhat similar to her own. Vide Alviarin's PoV when Shaidar Haran punishes Messy in CoT.

It is possible to entirely change appearance - Lanfear in TSR/ FoH as the fat lady tinker and as Silvie in TDR, also Rand in WH. It is also possible to remove wrinkles/ add agelessness to basic appearance (Lanfear in TSR), which seems to be what Messy has done since Alvi thinks she is vaguely familiar.

 

Then there is her strength with the OP.  We know it is possible to hide that you can channel but I don't think you can hide only a partial amount to make it appear you are weaker than you actually are.  And I'm sure that someone with Messi's strength is something people would take note of in this day and age.  Besides Alvarian noted that she could not sense the source with her when they met.

 

It is possible to partly mask - RJ said so. Examples would include Else Grinwell- Lanfear, Messy- whoever and Dashiva (on the male side)- Osangar. 

 

It seems more logical to assume she is posing as a servant or a worker within the tower (or someone who has taken shelter in the Tower) where she would only have to change a few key features with herself and she can hide her ability to channel.

Nope - see reasons above.

 

[coteaz]

No one living besides the forsaken would remember her face anyway. So she could probably alter records and turn up and say im an Aes Sedai who was retired up until now. use the OP to put on the ageless look, and then infiltrate the Aes Sedai.

[Robo-Hillbilly]

She is could one of the Ajah heads, we don't see them much (no one does) and they seem to run the tower. They did elect the Sitters they thought they could control and so forth after Elaida deposed Suin. That is what the ferrets were on to in the tower.

 

She deffinately left with the other Black Ajah as Eqwene gained control of the tower. 

[Luckers]

Most likely Mesaana took off as soon as the Seanchan attacked.  She had three options:

 

1) Fight and risk discovery by fighting to her full abilities

2) Fight and risk capture by not fighting to her full abilities

3) Evade

 

You're assuming she had time to react. Something like this would work.

 

Mesaana was pulled out of the dream as someone shook her. Something cold and metalic snapped shut around her neck. Still groggy she reached for the source--and pain bloomed across her. Still, she had faced Shaidar Haren's torture, and this pain seemed little in contrast. She was able to focus her eyes on the woman who looked down on her, smiling placidly.

 

"You have been marath'damane for a long time, and are thus confused. But understand that you are now damane."

 

Mesaana screamed.

[fikkie77]

And what would be her name? Messa?

 

[Vorkia]

 

Inconvenience would be the problem not subjugation. Accepted and Novices are always in the company of each other and being minded/ taught by AS. Ditto servants. Why would she want to use compulsion regularly to readjust her schedule and ensure she wasn't discovered? The more she has to tinker with other people's minds and memories, the more chances there are of being discovered. Also Accepted-Novices are constantly tested for their OP skills - again this increases the chances of her making a slip in company. 

 

Thats why I said its most likely she is posing as a servant or a "guest" in the tower.  Servants aren't really seen by the people there and as long as she seems she is busy doing something, most servants are left alone to go about their business.  If someone does ask her to perform a task she can easily use compulsion and pass the job on to another servant.

 

Messy has to pose as somebody who did exist if she's going to infiltrate the tower. She's using an ageless face, which is somewhat similar to her own. Vide Alviarin's PoV when Shaidar Haran punishes Messy in CoT.

 

She doesn't have to, but it is possible.

 

 

It is possible to entirely change appearance - Lanfear in TSR/ FoH as the fat lady tinker and as Silvie in TDR, also Rand in WH. It is also possible to remove wrinkles/ add agelessness to basic appearance (Lanfear in TSR), which seems to be what Messy has done since Alvi thinks she is vaguely familiar.

 

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker) and Silvie she completely masked her ability to channel.  Yes they changed their physical features, but I was always under the impression that it was few key changes, not a complete overhaul.  For example with Rand it was only his face, he dressed in the rags and walked with a stoop.  I thought the same thing for Silvie.  As far as Kelly goes, she changed her girth, but not too many of her facial features, just enough to make her unrecognizable.  But changing, facial features, clothes, height, age (in hands and other visible places like hands), hair and anything else all at once is more complicated and more difficult to maintain the facades.

 

 

It is possible to partly mask - RJ said so.

 

 

When? I don't recall seeing anything like that, but I don't pretend to know everything RJ said about Randland.  Post the link so I can see it.  Show me the post and I'll concede that you can mask your strength, not just if you can channel as long as thats what RJ said.

 

Examples would include Else Grinwell- Lanfear, Messy- whoever and Dashiva (on the male side)- Osangar.

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.  Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

 

 

Nope - see reasons above.

 

I don't think a valid argument against it was made at all and until I see the comment from RJ then I'm not convinced.

[Swigaro]

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.  Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

 

Lanfear disguised herself as Else, and appeared to Egwene before she took off after the black ajah.  Egwene was certainly far enough along to sense Else-fear's potential.  Lanfear partly masked her ability to channel...

[NARISMA]

Can somebody write me that part of Egwenes plot,where she roots out BA and makes sisters to forswear all oats.Or write me a whole Egwene plot with some details. :) :)

[Sharaman]

 

That's why I said it's most likely she is posing as a servant or a "guest" in the tower.  Servants aren't really seen by the people there and as long as she seems she is busy doing something, most servants are left alone to go about their business.  If someone does ask her to perform a task she can easily use compulsion and pass the job on to another servant.

 

 

She would still have to "compulse" large numbers of senior servants to avoid taking orders and take the chances of being found where she shouldn't be whereas a sister would have much more freedom 

 

She doesn't have to, but it is possible.

 

read the relevant section when Shaidar strips her, read Alviarin's half-recognition and then read the reactions of various AS who meet Siuan Sanche after Siuan loses her agelessness. It is not only possible, it is very likely.

 

When she posed as Kelly (who was a merchant not a tinker) and Silvie she completely masked her ability to channel.  Yes they changed their physical features, but I was always under the impression that it was few key changes, not a complete overhaul.  For example with Rand it was only his face, he dressed in the rags and walked with a stoop.  I thought the same thing for Silvie.  As far as Kelly goes, she changed her girth, but not too many of her facial features, just enough to make her unrecognizable.  But changing, facial features, clothes, height, age (in hands and other visible places like hands), hair and anything else all at once is more complicated and more difficult to maintain the facades.

 

 

Silvie is a hideous old hag, Kielle is fat and short with her eyes buried and multiple chins, - Lanfear is the most beautiful woman there's ever been, apart from being tall and slim. The WH description of Rand has warts and all. Anyways I was pointing out that this is possible. She probably made only minor changes since Alvi very nearly recognises her.

 

It is possible to partly mask - RJ said so.

 

 

When? I don't recall seeing anything like that, but I don't pretend to know everything RJ said about Randland.  Post the link so I can see it.  Show me the post and I'll concede that you can mask your strength, not just if you can channel as long as thats what RJ said.

 

There are several long threads on this partial masking with a confirm from an RJ Q& A session. The specific referrence was Else and Messy. I can't be bothered digging up and quoting - RAFO or ask the mods - I think Luckers was involved in one of these threads.

 

Examples would include Else Grinwell- Lanfear, Messy- whoever and Dashiva (on the male side)- Osangar.

 

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared. 

 

As somebody already pointed out, Lanfear was posing as Else, a weak channeler in TDR, which is what I was talking about. I dunno what you think you're referring to.

 

Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

You probably vaguely recall Rand testing Taim for his ability to draw Saidin. Again several threads (the same ones that refer to partial masking) have debates on this.   

 

 

[fikkie77]

Can somebody write me that part of Egwenes plot,where she roots out BA and makes sisters to forswear all oats.Or write me a whole Egwene plot with some details. :) :)

Just read the book!

 

I could pb some summary though

[Vorkia]

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.  Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

 

Lanfear disguised herself as Else, and appeared to Egwene before she took off after the black ajah.  Egwene was certainly far enough along to sense Else-fear's potential.  Lanfear partly masked her ability to channel...

 

I don't recall that, if you could give me the book that was in and hopefully a chapter or page number, I'd like to check it out again.  I'm surprised its something I'd miss on my many reads of the series.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Vorkia, I thought the same thing about women not being able to partially mask their ability. Mr Ares disabused me of the notion. Either he or luckers would probably know the relevant Q&A session.

 

What you are asking about with Else-fear happens in tDR I believe, right around when the grey man is killed in the tower. Found it, its a bit after the grey man, pg 297 paperback, tor edition. There is no direct comment about her strength or potential, but it stands to reason that if she was as strong as Lanfear or had hidden her ability completely, someone would have commented, Else being a novice at the time.

[Rufae]

Verin = favorite WoT character so far. I have known since The Great Hunt that she was not bound to the Oath Rod but I didn't think she was Black. I just thought that she used the Dream Ter'angreal to go into TAR and release the Oaths, but she was still on the side of Light. I pictured her as a Rogue Aes Sedai like Cadsuane.

 

That being said, when she said that she was Black Ajah, my heart droppped. I could not believe it. If she turned out to be Black and was truelly Black, I would have screamed. Instead I was justified to believe in her. She is awsome.

 

I too wonder about Alanna. They spent several weeks up in that shack in the Two Rivers alone for the BA question not to come up. Does Alanna know that Verin was BA? Did she know that she was a secret agent?

 

As for Mesanna, I think she escaped during the chaos of the Seanchan attack.

 

We know Messana and Demandred are working togather and it is hinted that he is in the Borderlander Camp. It is also meantioned that there are 13 Aes Sedai with them. She could be posing as one of that group.

 

[Krimzin]

I seem to recall a hinting about Demandred being with the Boarderlander army, but I can't recall where. Does anyone recall the line?

[fikkie77]

Verin = favorite WoT character so far. I have known since The Great Hunt that she was not bound to the Oath Rod but I didn't think she was Black. I just thought that she used the Dream Ter'angreal to go into TAR and release the Oaths, but she was still on the side of Light. I pictured her as a Rogue Aes Sedai like Cadsuane.

 

That being said, when she said that she was Black Ajah, my heart droppped. I could not believe it. If she turned out to be Black and was truelly Black, I would have screamed. Instead I was justified to believe in her. She is awsome.

 

I too wonder about Alanna. They spent several weeks up in that shack in the Two Rivers alone for the BA question not to come up. Does Alanna know that Verin was BA? Did she know that she was a secret agent?

 

As for Mesanna, I think she escaped during the chaos of the Seanchan attack.

 

We know Messana and Demandred are working togather and it is hinted that he is in the Borderlander Camp. It is also meantioned that there are 13 Aes Sedai with them. She could be posing as one of that group.

 

If Alanna was Black, she would have been in Verin's book. Egwene knows Alanna, so she would have noticed. Therefore, Alanna is Green Ajah, not Black,

[griz]

 

Lanfear completely masked her ability so when she did channel, it was a complete shock to Else, not that she was stronger than she appeared.  Messy is still up for debate and with male channelers its different, the only way to tell how strong they are if for them to hold all that they can to be judged by other men.  When they were testing Dashiva's strength, he could have easily been holding back.  In fact I vaguely recall Rand mention that Dashiva didn't seem to be straining at all so he didn't know if he was holding all he could or not.

 

Lanfear disguised herself as Else, and appeared to Egwene before she took off after the black ajah.  Egwene was certainly far enough along to sense Else-fear's potential.  Lanfear partly masked her ability to channel...

 

I don't recall that, if you could give me the book that was in and hopefully a chapter or page number, I'd like to check it out again.  I'm surprised its something I'd miss on my many reads of the series.

 

I'm pretty sure Lanfear wasn't Else, but she did kill Else while she was working on the farm for pennance.  Or was that one of the BA sisters that killed her?