The Black Ajah (spoilers for the entire book)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wasn't tryna pull a gotcha.  Just trying to point out that it's easy to forget that Jordan also did a number of things which had no build-up.

 

Sanderson isn't giving us anything unprecedented.

[kivo]

We're coming to the end of the series here.  There's going to be a lot of resolutions that don't get a 3/4 book build up to go along with resolutions that have been building up for a long time.

 

 

[Calloravion]

we'll have to call that poetic license then on RJ's part, because the universality of printing presses does not inevitably lead to a universally literate population. most developing countries don't even have 90% literacy today.

 

The westlanders and the Seanchan have been separated by an ocean with no contact for 1000 years, and they still speak the same language, with only differences in accent.  If that's possible, then universal literacy is possible.

[Calloravion]

It would of been a lot more BA dead if it was waited a bit longer. In the tower they could of cramed a lot more BAs into a room, or whatever it was they did. Really, no execution scenes at all? Ah well...

 

Purging the camp first was better.  Yes, you could have taken out more BA at once, but first you need a proportionate number of channelers you can trust to keep them under control.  Egwene didn't know everyone who was BA.  By cleansing the camp first, she now knows everyone she brought in the Tower with her is clear.  And there were proportionally more BA in the Tower because of the Red Ajah (largest Ajah and highest BA percentage), so starting with the camp meant fewer BA to control first.

 

Divide and conquer.

[richnewton82]

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[Thorn]

It would of been a lot more BA dead if it was waited a bit longer. In the tower they could of cramed a lot more BAs into a room, or whatever it was they did. Really, no execution scenes at all? Ah well...

 

Purging the camp first was better. 

 

She also didn't know she was going to get into the Tower so easily. She might've had to wage a battle to get into the Tower and take it over, all with fifty black ajah at her back, including Sheriam.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The thing that makes no sense though is -

 

She gated back into her room in the Tower to retrieve Verin's books.  She could have stayed.  So, why is she so angry with everybody for rescuing her?  Her position within the Tower had not been compromised at all.

[richnewton82]

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[adverge]

5.  I would LOVE to see an a short story about how Verin got into the BA and the beginnings of her 70-year plan.  Verin said she hasn't made a mistake in 70-years--- what was that mistake?  I always visualize Angela Lansbury from 'Murder she Wrote' everytime I think of Verin-- great character.

 

I'm going to assume the error was the reason she ended up in the Black Ajah in the first place.  Perhaps she was one of the Aes Sedai who was forced to turn to the Dark One by 13 Mydrraalwhatsits?

 

I really like the Angela Landsbury comparison.

 

Verin's story arc was perfect from start to finish.  She was a great minor character and I really like the way her story was tied up.  I would like to learn how she got herself into her situation too though, but perhaps it would be best to never know.  She is a bit of a mystery after all.

[adverge]

She gated back into her room in the Tower to retrieve Verin's books.  She could have stayed.  So, why is she so angry with everybody for rescuing her?  Her position within the Tower had not been compromised at all.

 

Because her rescue dimished her position as a captive of course.  She couldn't be rescued then go back to being captured by the Tower Aes Sedai, it would have made her look weak.  She even stated that at one point, just before her rescue I believe.

[lsm]

I'm going to assume the error was the reason she ended up in the Black Ajah in the first place.  Perhaps she was one of the Aes Sedai who was forced to turn to the Dark One by 13 Mydrraalwhatsits?

 

I really like the Angela Landsbury comparison.

 

Verin's story arc was perfect from start to finish.  She was a great minor character and I really like the way her story was tied up.  I would like to learn how she got herself into her situation too though, but perhaps it would be best to never know.  She is a bit of a mystery after all.

I don't think it was by the 13 myrdrals, because there's no choice then, and Verin did say she had to chose between joining the BA or die.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She gated back into her room in the Tower to retrieve Verin's books.  She could have stayed.  So, why is she so angry with everybody for rescuing her?  Her position within the Tower had not been compromised at all.

 

Because her rescue dimished her position as a captive of course.  She couldn't be rescued then go back to being captured by the Tower Aes Sedai, it would have made her look weak.  She even stated that at one point, just before her rescue I believe.

 

If she reappears in the Tower, maybe with a story about needing to return the *angreal and then falling asleep in the storeroom, she's still appears to be a captive.

 

Not the most honest way o begin a new chapter with the Tower, but an Amyrlin hasta do what an Amyrlin hasta do.

[Lambada]

She gated back into her room in the Tower to retrieve Verin's books.  She could have stayed.  So, why is she so angry with everybody for rescuing her?  Her position within the Tower had not been compromised at all.

 

Because her rescue dimished her position as a captive of course.  She couldn't be rescued then go back to being captured by the Tower Aes Sedai, it would have made her look weak.  She even stated that at one point, just before her rescue I believe.

 

If she reappears in the Tower, maybe with a story about needing to return the *angreal and then falling asleep in the storeroom, she's still appears to be a captive.

 

Not the most honest way o begin a new chapter with the Tower, but an Amyrlin hasta do what an Amyrlin hasta do.

 

ahh, but your forgetting that she wishes to adhere to the oaths as much as possible. That would require her to lie.

[richnewton82]

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[Bob T Dwarf]

She gated back into her room in the Tower to retrieve Verin's books.  She could have stayed.  So, why is she so angry with everybody for rescuing her?  Her position within the Tower had not been compromised at all.

 

Because her rescue dimished her position as a captive of course.  She couldn't be rescued then go back to being captured by the Tower Aes Sedai, it would have made her look weak.  She even stated that at one point, just before her rescue I believe.

 

If she reappears in the Tower, maybe with a story about needing to return the *angreal and then falling asleep in the storeroom, she's still appears to be a captive.

 

Not the most honest way o begin a new chapter with the Tower, but an Amyrlin hasta do what an Amyrlin hasta do.

 

ahh, but your forgetting that she wishes to adhere to the oaths as much as possible. That would require her to lie.

 

Not forgetting it at all.  Just using the opportunity to point out how foolish those Oaths are in the first place, and how wrong she is to want so desperately to live up to them.

[kari-no-sugata]

I don't think verin was turned. I think she, like Cadsuane, was trying to figure out who the Black Ajah were. She got in over her head and basically faced a situation where she would either be killed or have to turn to the darkside. I would like to see a POV story written about it because it sounds awesome. I'm curious how she got around lying though when she WAS bound by the oaths (ie, before becoming black ajah). It is clear she was not a darkfriend and never has been. surely when she got found out by the black ajah and was forced to join, she told them she was a darkfriend.. how'd she manage this while unable to lie?

 

I'd like to see a side story on this too.

 

We don't really know how the Black Ajah go about getting new members, or Aes Sedai who are interested in joining the Black manage to get in. Since neither group (current members and potential members) can advertise they'd have to be very careful. Maybe Verin just happened to get wind of some Black Ajah activity / members, and started to investigate and then she was either unlucky or took too many risks and ended up confronted by Black Ajah. Which means either she has to say she was interested in joining or go down to what she thought was certain death (though maybe they'd have tried to turn her instead). She said she joined to save her skin so maybe she was able to convince the others that way - "yes, I really want to join [so that I can survive]". We have seen that Verin can be a very subtle manipulator and skilled at working around oaths, so I think we can take what Verin said at face value.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I bet I know exactly what is in that letter. Verin could Travel. I bet she went into the Tower and retrivedthe Horn Of valere and stashed it some plce for Mat. He had to Promise not to open it before hand because I bet it was in direct violation of her BA orders Thus if its after she is ded taht she is telling this in wriniting it does not break he BA oaths. She side steps them. Verin Totally rocks. It was one of my *gasp* gasp moments when she told egwene that lie.

 

I agree, my favorite line in the entire book has to be "That dress you're wearing is green."  Brilliant.

[lillcheese]

ya that's true. she couldnt go back and put on novice white again and she couldn't lie so she had to go in with the rebels.

 

 

I don't think verin was turned. I think she, like Cadsuane, was trying to figure out who the Black Ajah were. She got in over her head and basically faced a situation where she would either be killed or have to turn to the darkside. I would like to see a POV story written about it because it sounds awesome. I'm curious how she got around lying though when she WAS bound by the oaths (ie, before becoming black ajah). It is clear she was not a darkfriend and never has been. surely when she got found out by the black ajah and was forced to join, she told them she was a darkfriend.. how'd she manage this while unable to lie?

 

Verin is awesome.

 

Do we know Cadsuane is black?  I don't recall that, though it's been a while since I read KoD.  I started rereading tGS today and got to her POV in which she says she's tempted for the first time to break her word and torture Semi. 

[richnewton82]

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[lsm]

Do we know Cadsuane is black?  I don't recall that, though it's been a while since I read KoD.  I started rereading tGS today and got to her POV in which she says she's tempted for the first time to break her word and torture Semi. 

I don't think that would count, it's one thing if she swore by the light that she promises to never torture semirhage

[Raveen]

Do we know Cadsuane is black?  I don't recall that, though it's been a while since I read KoD.  I started rereading tGS today and got to her POV in which she says she's tempted for the first time to break her word and torture Semi. 

I don't think that would count, it's one thing if she swore by the light that she promises to never torture semirhage

 

I don't believe that she promised that she wouldn't torture Semi but rather was ordered by rand not to.

[adverge]

 

Cadsuane's name wasn't on Verin's list and I think that list only missed minor, unimportant Aes Sedai.  Cadsuane would surely be pretty high up on the Black Ajah importance scale, especially given her age.

 

 

[dfchang]

It appears that this thread has essentially become the "verin is awesome" thread to protect others from spoileres so I'll give my two cents on this.

 

Without doubt, Verin's sequence in this book was the most awesome scene in the book . . . and in the series for me.

 

It's hard to explain WHY it's so great but when you stop to think about it, I was SOOOOO moved by what she had done.

 

Over 7 decades working thanklessly to uncover over 95% of the Black Ajah not to mention all the intricacies of the organization . . . it's just breathtaking and also humbling to think of that sacrifice.

 

The precision, the thoroughness . . . she needs to have a statue in the White Tower.  The Brown Ajah have a lot to be proud of.

 

And maybe that's what makes Verin's feat even more wonderful.  It shows that you don't have to be the Dragon Reborn or the Amyrlin Seat to make a difference.  Verin, using nothing  more than her cunning and her mind, was able to deliver a blow that has to rank up there as one of the greatest against the forces of evil done in history.

 

I've always felt to some extent how the Brown Ajah got a little short shrift . . . how sometimes the other Ajahs looked down on them for being too "nerdy" for lack of a better term.  Well, Verin showed what a GREAT Brown could do and that act made me want to  stand up and cheer.

 

Guys . . . THIS was worth waiting 19 years for.

 

Dennis

 

 

[indytyler]

First time poster;

 

I'd never really cared for Verin until this point. Even though I'd just finished reading the series - I kind of want to read them again to take another look at Verin through the years.

 

Now, on her letter - if I'm not mistaken, she was one of the Aes Sedai that took Mat's sister to Salidar. It could just be a simple "Before I die, I know about your hatred of Aes Sedai - and wanted to let you know about your sister."

[lillcheese]

How sad is it that when I got hone from a party I stopped here to check if other people think Cadsuane is BA?

 

Anyway:

Do we know Cadsuane is black?  I don't recall that, though it's been a while since I read KoD.  I started rereading tGS today and got to her POV in which she says she's tempted for the first time to break her word and torture Semi.  

I don't think that would count, it's one thing if she swore by the light that she promises to never torture semirhage

 

I don't believe that she promised that she wouldn't torture Semi but rather was ordered by rand not to.

 

From page 109:

 

"The a'dam.  If only the Lord Dragon would let us use it on her..." Merise said, glancing at Semirhage.

 

If ever Cadsuane had been tempted to break her word, it was regarding that.  Slip an a'dam on the woman . . . but no, in order to force someone to talk with an a'dam, you had to give them pain.  It was the same as torture, and al'Thor had forbidden it.

 

If she's bound by the oath rod, I'm not sure how reasonable it is for her to be tempted to break her word.  The impossibility of doing so should remove any temptation.  

 

Of course, it could be a poor word choice or simple over-analyzing on my part.