Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[toss the dice]

Anyone think its interesting how in the Prophecy of the Dragon it says that "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south" but nowhere does it say that they shall be bound together as one nation as Rand is trying to do?  Any thoughts?

[lrbenson]

It's true.  It's never mentioned that they must be as one, except in Rand's own musings.  Maybe the south and west serve a different purpose, such as fighting the armies of Demandred (Borderlanders?) and the north and east are concerned with the Shadowspawn.

[coteaz]

Wasn't it the Finns that told him that prophecy?

[lrbenson]

Yes.  And don't forget, their prophecies are suspect, due to the fact that any questions asked of them shouldn't "touch the Dark One".

 

Remember Moraine threw a hissy fit when she found out what Rand had asked them?  His questions skirted the line of breaking the rules.

[jemron]

The question now is, what effect will this have on him? Will he remember everything? and be an overpowered OP weilding god? will he remember the lives of the dragon when the dragon existed and the OP no longer existed? Discuss.

 

I like the thought that Rand will be more knowledgeable than Moridin/Ishy now because he'll actually remember Ages come and gone, not just philosophize about them like Ishy does.  This could be really cool.  Still, how much will he really remember?  Probably not much.  Birgitte is losing what she remembered, and Rand didn't even know everything about Lews Therin's life and memories (though that may because Lews Therin's memory had been messed up by the taint before he died).  Still, a really cool thought.  I hope Rand remembers interesting details that will help him win against the DO for good.

[coteaz]

Well if though of this way, when the dragon is spun out into a world where the OP has diminished, he would have to rely on more mundane methods, become a better warrior, become a better negotiator etc. And rand would have access to all this (hopefully). Then there is the countless thousands of lives where he would have learned to channel, which would mean that now he would know almost everything there is to know about the OP, will be interesting to see what he does with it.

[Hafgan]

Anyone think its interesting how in the Prophecy of the Dragon it says that "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south" but nowhere does it say that they shall be bound together as one nation as Rand is trying to do?  Any thoughts?

 

yes and no. In the Karaethon Cycle a prophecy was made that just says ""The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."

 

BUT when Rand asked his questions to the Aelfinn:

 

 

   * "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

   * "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

 

So the north, east, west and south must all "be as one". That could be as a single nation or just working together as the Forces of Light. Also, scholars in Randland would be able to recognize the first two parts, but not the third as Rand does.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html

[karehiro]

This is one thing I've been wondering about.  When Rand at the end of Veins of Gold had the epiphany that he lived again to see "her" and because he wanted to fix his mistakes and do things "right", I assumed that it was just referencing the mistakes that he made as Lews Therin, the Dragon (such as how he killed his family or the manner he sealed the Dark One).  That or just speaking in general (for example being able to rediscover love).

 

But since he remembered all his past lives when he had that epiphany, could it possibly mean that he's done the wrong thing in the way he fought the Dark One in every life, but *now* he's trying do do things right "this time"?  In other words, does it mean that he's supposed to fight/beat the Dark One in a different manner than he's done during the War of Power, or does it mean he's supposed to fight/beat the Dark One in a different manner than in every life he's had so far?

 

This distinction of course carries great importance.  If it's the former, it means he'll defeat the Dark One the same way he's done in a previous past life, albeit much better than he did it as Lews Therin, and it means the cycle will eventually repeat again.  If it's the latter, it means he breaks the cycle and truly defeats the Dark One (like for example killing him instead of just sealing him up).

[coteaz]

You cant truly defeat the dark one, the wot universe is a universe of balance, light and dark, yin and yang.

[Lobivia]

Just a thought.

 

The only-bad taveren effect starts after Rand snaps, channels TP and starts controlling the pattern (or thinks he start controlling the pattern). Most people seems to think this is due to TP, but what if it is not the use of TP that causes the bad taveren effects but that Rand starts controlling the pattern. I think it is when he appears to force the pattern that Aes Sedai see the darkness around him.

 

We now that the pattern balances out Good v/s Evil. If Rand tries to change everything to be better (at least from his point of view) by forcing his will on the pattern, the pattern balance this out by random evil. Any thoughts anyone?

 

/David

 

I think the bad taveren stuff started before that actually. You notice in the first chapter when he drinks the spiced wine and its awful but Cadsuane doesn't mind it? Food and drink spoiling immediately around him... yep..

 

The bad taveren stuff (balconies falling) has actually occured all the time, but that there is no good taveren stuff (weddings) to weight it up is new after the TP incident.

This is not the same as the dark ones influence which occurred already in book 3 or 4 (bubbles of evil) and have grown worse. The effects has grown even worse after the TP incident. I think the food and drink stuff are in this category. The dark ones influence seems to have been worse round the taveren from the beginning.

 

Both effects can be due to TP, that seems to be the most common idea. There might be that one of the effects is instead due to forcing the pattern. If Rand thinks that he controls the wheel the wheel responds by even it out by only doing bad taveren stuff.

 

Even both effects could be related to Rand forcing the pattern, maybe the bubbles of evil get through easier if the pattern is strained from Rand's forcing. (This last section is in part financed by the Department of Loony Theories [DLT])

 

 

[CPece]

Does this make sense? Rand will use the true power to hold back the Dark One while the other Channelers , Male and female, will reseal the bore using both sides of the one power. I also believe that moridin will take rands place at the last minute thereby giving rand the opportunity to live.

[Aleron688]

Does this make sense? Rand will use the true power to hold back the Dark One while the other Channelers , Male and female, will reseal the bore using both sides of the one power. I also believe that moridin will take rands place at the last minute thereby giving rand the opportunity to live.

 

crazy. lol, i mean that in the lightest possible way :)

 

i dont think rand will be doing much more channeling with the TP.  I'm pretty sure that was just a fluke because of his connection with moridin.  Whether or not the DO allowed it is another matter entirely... but i dont think it was originally intended.

 

Plus with LTT's memories, he knows that the TP is pretty bad, so he won't be using it too much imho.

[Nimic]

Anyone think its interesting how in the Prophecy of the Dragon it says that "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south" but nowhere does it say that they shall be bound together as one nation as Rand is trying to do?  Any thoughts?

 

yes and no. In the Karaethon Cycle a prophecy was made that just says ""The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."

 

BUT when Rand asked his questions to the Aelfinn:

 

 

   * "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

   * "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

 

So the north, east, west and south must all "be as one". That could be as a single nation or just working together as the Forces of Light. Also, scholars in Randland would be able to recognize the first two parts, but not the third as Rand does.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html

 

Couldn't that possibly refer to Rand and Moridin?

[kevin-nivek]

I seriously doubt rand is going to have full knowledge of everyone of his past lives. It would make him unbeatable first of all, and it would remove alot of the threat of the last battle if he remembers successfully sealing the bore thousands of times.

This isn't the first time rand has a moment of enlightenment that let him remember one key aspect of many prior lives, he realized that he never served the shadow in previous lives but he didn't gain instant knowledge and skills from that.

[coteaz]

He may not remember everything, but i think that his skills will vastly improve.

[kevin-nivek]

He'll definitely have Lews Therins skills, and maybe a vague awareness of other lives.

[toss the dice]

Wasn't it the Finns that told him that prophecy?

 

its true that the Finns REINFORCED  the need for this. But it was originally mentioned in the Prophecy of the Dragon

[stormcrow]

I seriously doubt rand is going to have full knowledge of everyone of his past lives. It would make him unbeatable first of all, and it would remove alot of the threat of the last battle if he remembers successfully sealing the bore thousands of times.

This isn't the first time rand has a moment of enlightenment that let him remember one key aspect of many prior lives, he realized that he never served the shadow in previous lives but he didn't gain instant knowledge and skills from that.

But that is how Veins of Gold ended, with him having knowledge of all of his previous lives. In that moment he realized he wasn't just the Dragon Reborn but the same person in countless lives, without seam. How could he know the mistakes his former self made if he doesn't remember those lives vividly? I don't expect much to be made of that. LTT was one the greatest channeler and an accomplished general in his Age, yet the woolheaded Rand (with knowledge from LTT) is a horrible tactician. He will probably still not use a tenth of his potential. Lanfear spoke a prophesy in Tear in that regard.

 

When did Rand realize he had never served the shadow before?

[toss the dice]

Anyone think its interesting how in the Prophecy of the Dragon it says that "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south" but nowhere does it say that they shall be bound together as one nation as Rand is trying to do?  Any thoughts?

 

yes and no. In the Karaethon Cycle a prophecy was made that just says ""The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south."

 

BUT when Rand asked his questions to the Aelfinn:

 

 

   * "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

   * "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

 

 

So the north, east, west and south must all "be as one". That could be as a single nation or just working together as the Forces of Light. Also, scholars in Randland would be able to recognize the first two parts, but not the third as Rand does.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/aelfinn.html

 

Maybe this is actually three different pieces of advice. The first part being about the north and the east being one and the west and south being one (not necessarily ALL as one), the second being that two must be one (not necessarily the nations) and the third to live you must die. Hmmm this seems strangely like the Prophecies of the Dragon...

[Jnai]

When did Rand realize he had never served the shadow before?

 

Hi all. First post. =)

 

TGH:

Ba'alzamon stared at him. "Why are you grinning like an idiot, fool? Do you not know I can destroy you

utterly?"

Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. "I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives,

I never have. I know that. I'm sure of it. Come. It is time to die."

[Paendragon]

"It's generally accepted that he either accessed it through Moridin without the Dark One's knowledge or the Dark One purposely let him use it to corrupt him (once again, probably through Moridin)."

 

I remember reading that the Dark One can take away the ability to use the true power, and that you don't get to use it without his permission. Even if Rand channeled it through Moridin, which I don't believe, the Dark One knew about it, and allowed it.

 

The clouded face that Rand sees in his mind when he senses the true power, made me think of the faces he saw boiling out of the clouds when he chatted with Moridin, which seemed to me to be the face of the bloody flaming Dark One himself.

 

I say semi called it, the Dark One betrayed her.

Also, Rand isn't all good yet, he still has to learn tears, as far as I can tell.

[karehiro]

Not sure if Rand in one of his past lives never served the Dark One, but the Light's champion did do so on multiple occasions.  The Dragon himself is always the Light's champion and is the Dark One's eternal foe.

 

The only question is if every Light's champion is always the Dragon (for example in an Age where the Dragon's thread wasn't spun out).  If every Light's champion is the Dragon, then Rand just didn't know what he spoke.  If every Light's champion isn't the Dragon, then Rand could be correct in that he never served the Dark One.

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

yay semantics!!

 

I'd say the Dark One knew full well what He was doing when Rand access the True Power.

 

Rand was looking for a way out, he was praying, anything but Min. 

The Dark One threw him a bone, and Rand snapped it up eagerly.  Yes, the Dark One lost a pawn and a bishop, but the sacrifice will be worth it.  This new power will lead Rand into temptation in his fight against the Dark One.  When all hope seems lost he will beg and the Dark One will name his price.

 

****Babble*****

 

It would be amazing to see Rand captured in the Black Tower Massacre, and taken by the circle of 13 turning him to the Dark, and have the Great Lord raise him as Nae'blis.  Then Rand could slay Moridin in a cold blooded fashion and cast his empty body aside.  Then you could have Logain and Egwene join the remaining Aes Sedai and assault Shayol Ghul in force with Callandor, backed up by Mat's dragons and wolves.  You could have Mat and Perrin hunt Rand down using their television link and Alivia could put a shield on Rand while Mat pins Rand to the ground with the ashandarei and then Logain could run Rand through, spilling his guts on the rocks to Seal the DarkOne outside of the Pattern for all time.  For the finisher we could have Perrin bash his head in with the hammer.  Closed casket.

 

Then GROUNDHOG DAY!  Rand wakes up in bed with the three girls, has a fat threesome.  Perrin wakes up to Berelain and Faile making out on the bed.  Mat wakes up with Tuon wearing an a'dam that is hanging on one bedpost, and Aludra tied to the other.

 

 

[gelrad]

In the end isn't it the third part of the Aelfinn answer: "The two must be as one". When LLT and Rand become one.

 

Or could it be Prophecy of the Dragon of the tree become one (Rand, LTT, The Dragon Reborn)

[crazywot]

  Hey everyone, this is my first post so I'm not sure whether this belongs in Rand's plotline or in the TOM theories section.

  TGS mentioned several times the idea of Rand's having "two hands". The Seanchan Blood have positions known as Hands. The Prophecies of the Seanchan, we are told, include the Dragon Reborn kneeling before the Crystal Throne and binding the Nine Moons to himself. It all seems to point towards a possible coronation of Rand as Emperor of the Seanchan, with Perrin and Mat to serve as his Hands. The ceremony may include Rand kneeling before the Crystal Throne and the Nine Moons may refer to the Seanchan people. There may be some holes in this but I would like to hear people's thoughts.

  Thanks.