Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[tneva82]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

 

Or maybe this was attempt to win the war. Simply converting Rand to DO's side say via the 13 dreadlord+13 fade trick wouldn't do it. As per RJ champpion of light has turned to dark before and that count as draw. So maybe it needs something else. Something that TP and CK(remember DO decided to leave access key for Rand. Why would he do it if not to give Rand access to it?). Semirhage's loss isn't that big deal. Seems like DO isn't too worried about losing forsakens and if it bolster his goals...

 

War isn't likely going to be about big show of force anyway so it's not like losing channelers is disaster.

[Stevros]

One thing I noticed when checking up on the Fisher King Legend was that the world keeps feeling his pain until the unhealable wound in his side is healed by the chosen one. Does that mean that he will still only have the bad ta'vern reactions and that nothing will continue to grow, even after veins of gold?

[Shard]

I think it's very concievable for the DO to give up one of the Forsaken for the chance to convert the Dragon. If he converts the Dragon it's a Game Over for the light, what's the life of one Forsaken compared to THAT victory?

[Tel Janin]

I think it's very concievable for the DO to give up one of the Forsaken for the chance to convert the Dragon. If he converts the Dragon it's a Game Over for the light, what's the life of one Forsaken compared to THAT victory?

 

This comment makes me think of Moridin's POV reflections about the game in which the Fisher is a playing piece...if memory serves, didn't he say that the Fisher could change hands several times in the game and that holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not controlling him?

 

I don't really have a point to this, save to say that its not necessarily game over for the Light...case in point...Verin.

 

My two coppers.  :)

[Mr Ares]

A truce between Rand and the Seanchan, not between the Seanchan and Rand. I doubt either the Seanchan or the AS consider Rand to have the authority to negotiate on behalf of the WT.

And you don't think Rand wouldn't put as part of his terms that attacks against these nations must stop? That was the whole frigging point of the truce!

Just because Rand wants a truce, doesn't mean the Seanchan agree. Like I said, the Seanchan might not consider Rand to have the right. They can agree a truce between Rand and his allies and the Seanchan, but the WT is not allied to Rand.

 

one blow with that sanagreal would render all of the blight useless.

So what? You can't win the Last Battle that way. Destroying the Blight doesn't matter a damn if Shai'tan breaks free, and He cannot be stopped by brute force.

 

all this meth you are talking about is nonsense.

Did you actually read the book?

 

sangreal and angreal are meant to be addictive in nature.

You just contradicted yourself. And no, they're not. Even if they were, that's not a good thing (crack is meant to be addictive, that doesn't make crack a good thing. Although it is very more-ish).

 

he can have a guy like logain

Who can he trust with that much Power? No-one.

 

In the face of the DO's power, giving up one of your few advantages has to be considered unimaginably dumb.

In the face of Shai'tan's power, it's not an advantage.

 

If it wasn't intentional, what was Moridin doing?

Getting Rand to take out Sammael.

[tneva82]

I don't really have a point to this, save to say that its not necessarily game over for the Light...case in point...Verin.

 

And the fact Champpion of Light has been turned to DO in the past. DO is looking for victory. Not a draw.

 

What the heck victory requires then is another thing.

[tneva82]

A truce between Rand and the Seanchan, not between the Seanchan and Rand. I doubt either the Seanchan or the AS consider Rand to have the authority to negotiate on behalf of the WT.

And you don't think Rand wouldn't put as part of his terms that attacks against these nations must stop? That was the whole frigging point of the truce!

Just because Rand wants a truce, doesn't mean the Seanchan agree. Like I said, the Seanchan might not consider Rand to have the right. They can agree a truce between Rand and his allies and the Seanchan, but the WT is not allied to Rand.

 

Then again they might realise Rand is right and there needs to be peace between them for Tarmon'Gaidon.

 

We know from meta-reason attack was 100% sure but logically from characters POV that's NOT 100% sure. It wasn't forseen or prophecied. Only Dreamed which isn't "what WILL happen" but instead "what MIGHT happen".

 

And even the fact the Seanchans were making plans isn't 100% proof. Number of plans made and discared during WW2 was probably quite a high(3-figure? 4-figure? 5-figure?) as well. Soldiers make plans constantly. If something happens above them like leaders making truce plans are obviously enough discarded.

 

It's pretty much same as we know DO is going to lose from meta-information we have. Rand&co have no reason to doubt DO has chance of winning however.

[sheikh chilli]

mr ares,

 

i do read the book but i doubt you do. you seem to swallow everything the book throws at you, it is no suprise to see u question nothing. no point in discussing anything with you with that 'everything seems to make sense' smug attitude you have.

 

 

tneva,

 

do you know what would have happened if the women went along with LTT's plan to seal the bore? According to one Mr jordan, saidin and saidar would have both been tainted. SO now you will have not only mad men channelling but women too. The world would have been destroyed. LTT's plan was right in principle but flawed in execution

 

 

the kal accomplished one important milestone. It cleansed saidin. apparently when rand was using it alongside nynaeve it was not OMG too powerful. suddenly on the eve of the last battle rand destroys it. ::) perhaps he thinks there wont be any armies or dreadlords, or fades etc eh?

 

 

like i said, the kal was destroyed simply because it was a plot breaker. all the armies in the world would not make any differenc against one man holding the kal. the authors simply got rid of it. and used the 'too powerful' excuse to explain the decision

 

 

 

finally i doubt the dark one will pass the chance of getting his hands on the most powerful sangreal ever. a sangreal strong enough to free him from his prison. It does not make any sense. his allies either didnt think too much of the little statue  in the box or were too concerned with the a'dam to even bother with anything else. the statue in the hands of moridin would have spelt game over.

 

 

 

then again i doubt if shaitan has any sense to begin with seeing how his followers are getting their ass kicked at the end of every book

 

 

[Shard]

I don't really have a point to this, save to say that its not necessarily game over for the Light...case in point...Verin.

 

And the fact Champpion of Light has been turned to DO in the past. DO is looking for victory. Not a draw.

 

What the heck victory requires then is another thing.

 

That was a lie told by Ishy, The Dragon was never turned, killed yes but never turned.

 

@sheikh chilli: Are you new to these forums? Just asking since you don't seem to know Mr Ares very well at all.

[tneva82]

I don't really have a point to this, save to say that its not necessarily game over for the Light...case in point...Verin.

 

And the fact Champpion of Light has been turned to DO in the past. DO is looking for victory. Not a draw.

 

What the heck victory requires then is another thing.

 

That was a lie told by Ishy, The Dragon was never turned, killed yes but never turned.

 

Weird. I didn't know RJ was Ishy :D RJ himself has said they have been turned before and that it counts as draw.

[tneva82]

finally i doubt the dark one will pass the chance of getting his hands on the most powerful sangreal. a sangreal strong enough to free him from his prison. his allies either didnt think too much of the little statue or were too concerned with the a'dam to even bother with anything else. the statue in the hands of moridin would have spelt game over.

 

But that's what HE DID. He deliberately LEFT CK for Rand. Why? Because it suits him. Maybe DO can't free himself from prison but needs Rand to do it. Preferably with CK.

 

There's some serious indication Moridin can't get win for DO directly. DO needs *Rand* to do it.

 

CK was playing to DO's interest. Good riddance for it.

[sheikh chilli]

finally i doubt the dark one will pass the chance of getting his hands on the most powerful sangreal. a sangreal strong enough to free him from his prison. his allies either didnt think too much of the little statue or were too concerned with the a'dam to even bother with anything else. the statue in the hands of moridin would have spelt game over.

 

But that's what HE DID. He deliberately LEFT CK for Rand. Why? Because it suits him. Maybe DO can't free himself from prison but needs Rand to do it. Preferably with CK.

 

There's some serious indication Moridin can't get win for DO directly. DO needs *Rand* to do it.

 

CK was playing to DO's interest. Good riddance for it.

 

 

i don't think he deliberating left the CK for rand. i just think his allies didnt think much of the little statue or were busy looking for that male adam.

 

because i find it hard enough to believe that the force for all evil in rand land will simply hand over the most powerful tool to his nemesis on the off chance that this tool will somehow corrupt the dragon.

 

 

in the end that gamble failed. which means either shaitan was a fool for making such an assumption in the first place or his allies simply did not find the statue

[Asuana]

Semi had Rand collared.  She should have taken him to Moridin immediately, but she decided to play with him.  From the prologue, we know that Moridin feels Rand’s physical pain.  We know he doesn’t feel Rand’s emotional pain.  Semi is an expert on physical pain.  As she inflicts pain on Rand, she is also causing excruciating pain to Moridin.  Due to Rand’s link to Moridin, Moridin’s link to the TP, and the intensity of pain, Rand is able to link to the TP through Moridin while Moridin is in a weakened state.  This may even suggest that Rand is actually the stronger of the two.  I’m not sure that the DO allowed this or was even aware that it could happen.  Either way, I doubt that he is going to be pleased with Moridin after this, and as someone else suggested, Moridin may even lose his Nae’blis status.

 

As for the CK, it is no longer needed.  Yes, it is powerful, but I think Rand had an epiphany on Dragonmount and realized that the CK could be more of a liability than an advantage.  I believe he understood that the DO can not be defeated by brute force.  He has become too dependant on the CK, too dependant on the power, when he needs to be using his wits. 

 

So far, Rand has made the right decisions when tempted by the Forsaken.  He chose love over lust, compassion over pain, and sacrifice over greed.  They have nothing left to offer him.

 

[tneva82]

because i find it hard enough to believe that the force for all evil in rand land will simply hand over the most powerful tool to his nemesis on the off chance that this tool will somehow corrupt the dragon.

 

 

Why not? This isn't war of raw power in a first place. Raw power doesn't matter! Rand could have CK and it wouldn't win war for him. Moridin could have CK and it wouldn't win the war. It is NOT about raw power.

 

DO could give Rand acces to 1000 time stronger Sa'Angreal and it wouldn't put DO's defeat one step closer. So why should he be concerned about handing over CK to Rand? Especially if it goes toward furthening DO's goals...

[Mr Ares]

Then again they might realise Rand is right and there needs to be peace between them for Tarmon'Gaidon.

But peace on whose terms? Will Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne, or bind the Nine Moons to serve him?

 

We know from meta-reason attack was 100% sure

The blurb to TGS? Yes, but we could be pretty bloody sure before then. What with our knowledge of the Seanchan culture, the importance they place on leashing marath'damane, and the fact that we see them making plans. Coupled with Egwene's Dream.

 

You have said nothing to change that.

 

you seem to swallow everything the book throws at you

Without reading it. That's quite impressive on my part. Although not actually an argument on yours.

 

the kal accomplished one important milestone.

The A-bomb accomplished one important milestone - ending WWII. Doesn't mean Mutually Assured Destruction is a good idea.

 

finally i doubt the dark one will pass the chance of getting his hands on the most powerful sangreal ever.

He did. The Domination Band was released from that box, that also held the Access Key, and the AK wasn't taken. The Shadow could have taken it, but they didn't. Why not?

a sangreal strong enough to free him from his prison.

We don't know that it is. It's not a question of brute strength.

the statue in the hands of moridin would have spelt game over.

Well, Moridin does prefer using TP.

 

then again i doubt if shaitan has any sense to begin with seeing how his followers are getting their ass kicked at the end of every book

Nothing to support that. Besides your own wilful ignorance of how Shai'tan is to achieve victory.

 

@sheikh chilli: Are you new to these forums? Just asking since you don't seem to know Mr Ares very well at all.

Oh, he knows me. He is just very vocal that his completely wrong view of just about everything in the series must be correct, and that RJ clearly didn't know what he was talking about. Apparently, Sammael's death was when the Shadow lost the war. Despite being what Moridin wanted. Funny that.

 

i just think his allies didnt think much of the little statue

The little staue left in the warded box of clearly important stuff that also contained the DB? They didn't think, hmm, maybe this is important? Of course not.

[Lambada]

I think what is obvious is that as Verin put it The Last Battle will not be fought the way [Rand] thinks it will. I think this could be a message to us as well basically saying most of our theories are wrong. Before the book most theories about the Last Battle were along the lines of hordes of armies with brute force in the One Power being used to win. Verins comment plus Rands actions on Dragonmount have made it clear that this is not what will win the Last Battle.. As Brute Force will not win it the CK won't be needed. Callandor might play a part due to the mysterious 'undiscovered properties' which may or may not be directly related to OP strength.

Instead I think it's going to be on a far more personal level - accepting who you are and accepting that others may have valid points (Particularly relevant with the gender divisions in WoT). Rand has finally started to accept who he is (as shown by the re-integration of his personality) which we know has set him on the right path. The other Ta'veren need to do the same.

So far, I feel Moiraine is the only one who has actually accepted that other people can have valid points as well. When she started offering her own points in complement to Rands existing knowledge most things turned out fine. When the other characters have tried steam-rolling other characters things have gone right far less often.

In short, I feel the last Battle will be won or lost by everyone finally accepting who they are and working together to share information so they can all make the rational decisions. Just as a minor side-note integral to this final thing will be the establishment of a reliable communication network rather than relying on pigeons.

[tneva82]

Then again they might realise Rand is right and there needs to be peace between them for Tarmon'Gaidon.

But peace on whose terms? Will Rand kneel to the Crystal Throne, or bind the Nine Moons to serve him?

 

Doubtful Rand will kneel since that's false prophecy created by Ishy. We do know however he'll bind the Nine Moons since that IS prophecy. So either only he binds or somehow both happen despite other being not prophecy in a first place and therefore isn't of any interest.

 

You have said nothing to change that.

 

Seanchan might like to collar them but I haven't seen any indication that they would be so braindead idiots as to not recognise advantage of truce before last battle if they would be pointed out to them. Alas Rand fumbbled it big time.

 

People are willing to do things they normally wouldn't for sake of war effort. It's not 100% impossible for Seanchans to post-pone leasing past last battle if they deem it to neccessary to win last battle. Remember they aren't servants of shadows. They OPPOSE DO.

 

[Swigaro]

Weird. I didn't know RJ was Ishy :D RJ himself has said they have been turned before and that it counts as draw.

 

When RJ was asked to verify the truth of Ishy's statement that the Champion of the Light had chosen to follow the DO in previous turnings of the Weel, his response was, "And you believed Ishaemel?"  I believe that he then went on to describe Ishy as, "A Lying Liar who Lies..."  The Dragon has never turned.  If he had turned, the DO would have won.  If the DO wins, game over, no more turnings of the Wheel.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Lambada]

Doubtful Rand will kneel since that's false prophecy created by Ishy. We do know however he'll bind the Nine Moons since that IS prophecy. So either only he binds or somehow both happen despite other being not prophecy in a first place and therefore isn't of any interest.

 

Something just struck me right between the head.

We already know that there is such a thing as 'Dark Prophecy'. Prophecies made by the Dark which are still Prophecies - such as the one scrawled on the wall after the invasion of the Borderland castle (back in TGH I think it was). What's to stop the "Kneel before the Crystal Throne" being a dark prophecy? We know it was inserted by Ishy, but there's no reason why it couldn't have been a genuine prophecy of the Dark. We've been assuming that it must be false because it was made by Ishy, when we know that the Dark do have their own prophecies as well.

[Swigaro]

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Hadn't ever seen that quote...  Point conceded...  Am I creatively remembering the "Lying Liar" bit or did RJ say that as well?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, he said that, too.

 

There are a few quotes around where it seems clear that Jordan thought a question meant something other than what the questioner intended.  Thus some of his answers are more confusing than helpful.

[Lambada]

Oh, he said that, too.

 

There are a few quotes around where it seems clear that Jordan thought a question meant something other than what the questioner intended.  Thus some of his answers are more confusing than helpful.

Unfortunately there are bound to be such mis-understandings of the meaning of questions when he thought Asmodens Killer was obvious!

[Swigaro]

Certainly...  As I think about it, I seem to recall that the question that elicited, "And you believed Ishy," was closer to "Ishy said that he and the Dragon had fought on the same side before, is that true."  A fine destinction, but, perhaps in those turnings when the Dragon turned, he took out the DO's champ, prior to or during his turn.  Semantic, perhaps but the statements are not contradictory...  

 

 

[dysonius]

Did anyone else think the whole "Veins of Gold" chapter to be rather hokey? The introspection, the girding up of the emotional loins, the epiphany that LOVE is worth fighting for?

 

Really? I mean really, this is where we're headed? I felt the same reading that as I did at the end of BSG, when we learned that all was part of God's plan.

 

Am I out on a limb? Just wondering if anyone else thought it was too cheesy.