Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[jwillis7]

Does anyone else have a new perspective on Rand now that we know that Lews Therin actually was just a voice in Rand's head, and not the actual person?

i dont understand where yall get this. He was another person, how else do you explain how rand knows history of Forsaken and there faces? Rand and LTT are the same soul with two personalities, they melded in the end, how he will act from now on... who knows. 

[Strykr017]

Does anyone else have a new perspective on Rand now that we know that Lews Therin actually was just a voice in Rand's head, and not the actual person?

i dont understand where yall get this. He was another person, how else do you explain how rand knows history of Forsaken and there faces? Rand and LTT are the same soul with two personalities, they melded in the end, how he will act from now on... who knows. 

 

Yes, but I don't think that Lews Therin was actually there talking to him. It seemed to me like that part was all Rand. The memories and stuff are part of the soul, but the voice wasn't. At least, that's what I understood, seeing how Rand's new found sense of understanding made him realize that he'd never hear from Lews Therin again.

[jwillis7]

Does anyone else have a new perspective on Rand now that we know that Lews Therin actually was just a voice in Rand's head, and not the actual person?

i dont understand where yall get this. He was another person, how else do you explain how rand knows history of Forsaken and there faces? Rand and LTT are the same soul with two personalities, they melded in the end, how he will act from now on... who knows. 

 

Yes, but I don't think that Lews Therin was actually there talking to him. It seemed to me like that part was all Rand. The memories and stuff are part of the soul, but the voice wasn't. At least, that's what I understood, seeing how Rand's new found sense of understanding made him realize that he'd never hear from Lews Therin again.

I think he wont hear from him again because on Dragonmount he achieved reintegration. and both personalities are aware and accept who they are.  Rand denied almost the whole series that he is not LTT but Rand al'Thor.  as Moridin said in the book that he is not Ishamael but that he is him reborn, he is aware of all of his past as Ishamael but knows that he is not that man any longer.  That is how i see Rand being from now on.  But I believe that we were hearing from LTT personality through out the book not Rands interpretation of the memories he was getting.

[Sauron]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

[Strykr017]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

 

He got it from his connection to Moridin? I believe that it said that Rand saw a flash of someone's face before he channeled it, which I assume to belong to Moridin.

[benr]

I'm of the opinion that it was not intentional on the DO's part, as has been well argued by many previously.  It was an accident, brought on by Rand's "melding" process with Moridin.  It seemed to me when I read it that it almost worked like the "need" feature of TAR.  Rand needed this so much that it connected with Moridin.  It could have been a set up to get Semi, but i didn't read it that way.

 

If this is so, it may cause Moridin to lose the N'ae Blis (sp) title, and leave the Forsaken in turmoil heading into TG.

[Seven of Nine]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

One possibility is that the DO wants to use Rand, and the TP is a way to corrupt him and help make him a tool for the DO. And the DO almost succeeded. He may have been willing to sacrifice Semi to accomplish this since she'd already failed to capture Rand unharmed.

[jwillis7]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

some people think its the link to moridin, and since he can do it rand got it so i don't think the shadow had considered he could do it before then

[Ishna]

I was thinking, what if the key to win the last battle against the DO is to use the TP and the OT and make them take out eachother somehow. So that there will be no more OP

or TP for people to use and no Dark One?

[Seven of Nine]

some people think its the link to moridin, and since he can do it rand got it so i don't think the shadow had considered he could do it before then

Assuming that the meeting with Moridin in SL and the crossing of their balefire streams was unintentional. If it wasn't intentional, what was Moridin doing?

[Strykr017]

some people think its the link to moridin, and since he can do it rand got it so i don't think the shadow had considered he could do it before then

Assuming that the meeting with Moridin in SL and the crossing of their balefire streams was unintentional. If it wasn't intentional, what was Moridin doing?

 

I think that Moridin was trying to help Rand, but he definitely wasn't intending on crossing Rand's balefire with his own.

[benr]

In the prologue:  Moridin, talking to Graendal:  "The end is near," Moridin said.  "The Wheel has groaned its final rotation, the clock has lost its spring, the serpent heaves its final gasps.  He must know pain of heart.  He must know frustration, and he must know anguish.  Bring these to him.  And you will be rewarded."

 

Here, Moridin is describing what happens to DarkRand after he gets use of the TP.  It isn't just instructions to Graendal about what needs doing in Arad Doman; it is a description of what Moridin wants Rand to go through, in preparing him for defeat at TG.  I don't think he is prepared for Rand to break free of DarkRand.  He may lose some standing as Nae'blis if he has truly lost Rand; he was so close to having him where he wanted.  Not only hard, but so hard he was brittle.

[Nargsmart]

Yeah, but when Rand "sees" Morridin via the link in KoD, Morridin looks suprised.  And also, Morridin is suprised when Rand goes to his fort in T'A'R.  Niether the link nor the visit were planned by Morridin. 

 

When Rand grabs the True power, he sees a blurred face.  That seems to indicate that he accessed the True power via the Morridin link.

 

I don't think Morridin ever intended Rand to get the TP. 

 

That said, the Dark One could have planned it all out and just not told anyone...

[benr]

Without going back and checking, I'll just ask:  is Rand still able to channel the TP?

[coteaz]

he probably could if he wanted to, he knows how to get into the place beyond the void where he can feel the TP. Maybe he can, Maybe he cant, we will have to RAFO.

[kevin-nivek]

was that blurred face moridin? it would be odd that the face he has been so clearly seeing would be blurred randomly. Or maybe something else, an incarnation of the dark one (lke shaidar haran) perhaps?

[randfandom]

destroyying it was a good thing? what do you think would have happened if rand destroyed it before he figured out a way to cleanse saidin using the kal. what then?

 

But it was the CK whose creation led to the breaking. There were basically two opposing strategies during the War of the Power. LTT's idea of sealing the bore (which he meant to do with combined Seidin and Seidar) and the Lara Pose's faction to use the huge Sa'angreals to do the same. The second approach was ruled out when the access keys were all destroyed or lost, but they still refused to cooperate with LTT, leading to him going with only (some of) the men.

 

If the CK were not created, the women may have gone along with LTT and then perhaps the bore would be sealed properly and Seidin would not have been tainted. Of course, it could be that that both halves would be tainted...

 

The point is that the very existence of the CK affected the decisions made at the time, and thus in a sense the CK were in fact the cause of the taint.

[Vanin]

So ive got a question. Does anyone have any theories as to why the Dark One granted the Rand the True Power? It does not make any sense to me not only did he lose one of his champions he also gave up a sure chance of victory in the war.

 

He got it from his connection to Moridin? I believe that it said that Rand saw a flash of someone's face before he channeled it, which I assume to belong to Moridin.

 

Could it be that the dark one granted it to him as a last punishment to Semmerhage? Like she has Rand right where she wants him then suddenly boom he's messing her up. Seems like a cruel joke the DO would pull on someone who failed so miserably

[karehiro]

destroyying it was a good thing? what do you think would have happened if rand destroyed it before he figured out a way to cleanse saidin using the kal. what then?

 

But it was the CK whose creation led to the breaking. There were basically two opposing strategies during the War of the Power. LTT's idea of sealing the bore (which he meant to do with combined Seidin and Seidar) and the Lara Pose's faction to use the huge Sa'angreals to do the same. The second approach was ruled out when the access keys were all destroyed or lost, but they still refused to cooperate with LTT, leading to him going with only (some of) the men.

 

If the CK were not created, the women may have gone along with LTT and then perhaps the bore would be sealed properly and Seidin would not have been tainted. Of course, it could be that that both halves would be tainted...

 

The point is that the very existence of the CK affected the decisions made at the time, and thus in a sense the CK were in fact the cause of the taint.

 

If the CK were not created and the female Aes Sedai went along with Lews Therin, both halves of the True Source would be tainted and the world would be destroyed.  Using the access keys wouldn't have affected the Dark One any better except for the fact that he'd have the chance to taint saidar along with saidin.

 

The access keys have only done good in this series, and there were no negative effects from their creation.  If the access keys were never created, the end of the war against the Shadow would have been far worse.

 

I agree with sheikh; the Choedan wasn't too powerful when it cleansed saidin but now it is conveniently right before the Last Battle.

 

They may as well destroy every angreal and sa'angreal while they're at it, since those are too much power for a single person supposedly.

[SinisterDeath]

destroyying it was a good thing? what do you think would have happened if rand destroyed it before he figured out a way to cleanse saidin using the kal. what then?

 

But it was the CK whose creation led to the breaking. There were basically two opposing strategies during the War of the Power. LTT's idea of sealing the bore (which he meant to do with combined Seidin and Seidar) and the Lara Pose's faction to use the huge Sa'angreals to do the same. The second approach was ruled out when the access keys were all destroyed or lost, but they still refused to cooperate with LTT, leading to him going with only (some of) the men.

 

If the CK were not created, the women may have gone along with LTT and then perhaps the bore would be sealed properly and Seidin would not have been tainted. Of course, it could be that that both halves would be tainted...

 

The point is that the very existence of the CK affected the decisions made at the time, and thus in a sense the CK were in fact the cause of the taint.

 

If the CK were not created and the female Aes Sedai went along with Lews Therin, both halves of the True Source would be tainted and the world would be destroyed.  Using the access keys wouldn't have affected the Dark One any better except for the fact that he'd have the chance to taint saidar along with saidin.

 

The access keys have only done good in this series, and there were no negative effects from their creation.  If the access keys were never created, the end of the war against the Shadow would have been far worse.

 

I agree with sheikh; the Choedan wasn't too powerful when it cleansed saidin but now it is conveniently right before the Last Battle.

 

They may as well destroy every angreal and sa'angreal while they're at it, since those are too much power for a single person supposedly.

 

The DO lashed out before he was sealed away, and in that lashing he tained Saidan. There were only 100 males there, performing escentially half a shield. If they had 100 females there to perform it, they may well have went from 'shielding' (WHICH if you don't realize, is similar to shielding channelers, and those 'shields' can be 'broken', or like in the DO's case, 'lashed out against).

But with both male and female powers, they may verywell have done Severed the DO's connectino from the world entirely. (aka completely fixing the 'bore' no 'seals'.

The female Aes Sedia wanted to create the Choden Kal becuase they thought they could use Brute Force against, basically a FORCE in there universe!

 

You can't fight 'time' with brute force. (in the case of weathering, you can't fight 'water/wind/gravity/time/ect' either)

 

Rand destroyed the CK because it was so addictive, read his chapters over again in TGS if you don't believe it. As soon as he got his paws over it, he was practically slobbering all over it.

Nyneave is the same way, her 'POV' indicates that she's still suffering 'withdrawls' from that amount of power. She'd love to get a taste of it again. There is a REASON the aes sedia talk about not training through excessive use of the OP, because it IS addictive. And like almost all addictive substances, you tend to take more, and more and more until you Die.

 

Whats the point of using the CK when callandor or the lil fat man are just as good?

 

 

Also Irony about Egwenes speach to Elidia about her 'putting rand in a box'.

She stated that, if he was the dragon reborn, putting him in that box wouldn't have allowed him to fullfill his prophecies, so her plan was doomed from the start.

The irony is, had Elidia not done that, Rand maywell not have fullfilled the other prophecies, like the '2 becoming 1'!

[ajfurst]

The DO lashed out before he was sealed away, and in that lashing he tained Saidan.

Lew Therin states that the DO was able to taint Saidin, not because they couldn't shield him, but because they had to touch SOMETHING to the DO, and the results showed that whatever was touched to him was going to be tainted. Lews Therin's plan was flawed regardless.

 

That doesn't mean Latra Posae's would have worked. Though at least if they'd had access to working CK's, her and LT either together individually channeling or linked could have wiped out the Shadows armies and creatures. Time bought, but of course it's moot whether they'd have been able to use it to come up with a solution that worked.

[karehiro]

destroyying it was a good thing? what do you think would have happened if rand destroyed it before he figured out a way to cleanse saidin using the kal. what then?

 

But it was the CK whose creation led to the breaking. There were basically two opposing strategies during the War of the Power. LTT's idea of sealing the bore (which he meant to do with combined Seidin and Seidar) and the Lara Pose's faction to use the huge Sa'angreals to do the same. The second approach was ruled out when the access keys were all destroyed or lost, but they still refused to cooperate with LTT, leading to him going with only (some of) the men.

 

If the CK were not created, the women may have gone along with LTT and then perhaps the bore would be sealed properly and Seidin would not have been tainted. Of course, it could be that that both halves would be tainted...

 

The point is that the very existence of the CK affected the decisions made at the time, and thus in a sense the CK were in fact the cause of the taint.

 

If the CK were not created and the female Aes Sedai went along with Lews Therin, both halves of the True Source would be tainted and the world would be destroyed.  Using the access keys wouldn't have affected the Dark One any better except for the fact that he'd have the chance to taint saidar along with saidin.

 

The access keys have only done good in this series, and there were no negative effects from their creation.  If the access keys were never created, the end of the war against the Shadow would have been far worse.

 

I agree with sheikh; the Choedan wasn't too powerful when it cleansed saidin but now it is conveniently right before the Last Battle.

 

They may as well destroy every angreal and sa'angreal while they're at it, since those are too much power for a single person supposedly.

 

The DO lashed out before he was sealed away, and in that lashing he tained Saidan. There were only 100 males there, performing escentially half a shield. If they had 100 females there to perform it, they may well have went from 'shielding' (WHICH if you don't realize, is similar to shielding channelers, and those 'shields' can be 'broken', or like in the DO's case, 'lashed out against).

But with both male and female powers, they may verywell have done Severed the DO's connectino from the world entirely. (aka completely fixing the 'bore' no 'seals'.

The female Aes Sedia wanted to create the Choden Kal becuase they thought they could use Brute Force against, basically a FORCE in there universe!

 

You can't fight 'time' with brute force. (in the case of weathering, you can't fight 'water/wind/gravity/time/ect' either)

 

Rand destroyed the CK because it was so addictive, read his chapters over again in TGS if you don't believe it. As soon as he got his paws over it, he was practically slobbering all over it.

Nyneave is the same way, her 'POV' indicates that she's still suffering 'withdrawls' from that amount of power. She'd love to get a taste of it again. There is a REASON the aes sedia talk about not training through excessive use of the OP, because it IS addictive. And like almost all addictive substances, you tend to take more, and more and more until you Die.

 

Whats the point of using the CK when callandor or the lil fat man are just as good?

 

 

Also Irony about Egwenes speach to Elidia about her 'putting rand in a box'.

She stated that, if he was the dragon reborn, putting him in that box wouldn't have allowed him to fullfill his prophecies, so her plan was doomed from the start.

The irony is, had Elidia not done that, Rand maywell not have fullfilled the other prophecies, like the '2 becoming 1'!

 

The issue is whether or not the creation of the Choedan Kal contributed to the tainting of saidin.  It wasn't, since if the Choedan Kal was never created and the female Aes Sedai went with Lews Therin, both halves of the One Power would be tainted and the world destroyed.  Use of the Choedan Kal was the alternative plan.  Without it, there's only Lews Therin's plan.  Since its very creation stopped the female Aes Sedai from joining Lews Therin, it only helped the world in the long run, since saidar would have been tainted otherwise.

 

The Choedan Kal has only done good in the series.  My point was that it's a bit strange how it wasn't considered too powerful for cleansing saidin, but now it's conveniently considered too powerful to have before the Last Battle.  If it's too much power for person, then what's the point of even having angreal or sa'angreal in the first place?  Would Rand really feel the same way if a circle of 13 Dreadlords suddenly appeared before him?

 

As for Callandor and the fat man angreal, Callandor is flawed while the fat man is lost.

[PsycoRift]

As to the part about Moridin and Rand being linked...

 

Moridin looked down, flexing his left hand, as if it were stiff. Graendal caught a hint of pain in his expression.

Edit:Prologue to TGS

 

He knows Rands pain of missing the hand and feels like it shouldn't be there, or at least that is what I gather. And that shows just how much crossing streams can affect two people. Obviously they didn't pay attention during Ghostbusters.

NEVER CROSS THE STREAMS

[tneva82]

Seriously, destroying the CK was one of the most retarded not to mention, most un-manly (:P) things that has happened in the series.

 

In the face of the DO's power, giving up one of your few advantages has to be considered unimaginably dumb.

 

Except of course CK won't be instrumental in bringing down DO.

 

Actually we know now that DO WANTED Rand to have CK. If he didn't he would have removed access key from Rand's hands when there was chance for that. But instead access key was left to Rand! Why you think that might be? Certainly DO wouldn't leave that if it could be used against him. Rather it seems like CK was pathway to DO's victory...

 

The access keys have only done good in this series, and there were no negative effects from their creation.

 

I would say nearly taking out a world thanks to DarkRand as quite a negative. And I would say DO WANTING Rand have it is quite a negative. Anything DO wants Rand and others should oppose. Since DO wants Rand to have it then it's pretty obvious CK is _bad_.

 

If it's too much power for person, then what's the point of even having angreal or sa'angreal in the first place?

 

Well it's like US cache of conventional missile and cache of nuclear missiles. One can't really be used to wipe out all life on Earth. One has sufficient power to do that with excessive firepower left. CK is equilavent of nuclear missiles. Capable of wiping out all life or rather take out whole universum which Rand almost did. Reqular sa'angreal's are less likely to take out the world. There's a reason why DO wants Rand to have CK...Probably DO was cursing big time when CK was destroyed as his carefully created plan went to ashesh.

[tneva82]

Does anyone else have a new perspective on Rand now that we know that Lews Therin actually was just a voice in Rand's head, and not the actual person?

 

Well. We know memories were real. With memories comes personality and voice. So Rand did what insane people tend to do and hear voices. Thing is though voice and personality behind the voice WERE LTT's as provided by the memories.

 

So while LTT himself wasn't literally talking to Rand it was the next best thing with LTT's personality speaking to Rand.