Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[richnewton82]

.

[Mr. Micawber]

She's dead. Seriously. NOTHING said has been a valid point. Not a single argument. BS must be appalled at this discussion. It was written plain as day. Rand nuked her. That was the only way she would ever die. She's gone.

 

Perhaps because BS didn't write it like this?

 

*Somewhere in the Aryth Ocean*

 

"Is this the DRS (Dragon Reborn's Ship) Andor?"

 

"Yessir, this is Captain Ablar speaking"

 

"This is the Randland Command Authority."

 

"Uh, hello, sir."

 

"Son, we're going to DARKCON 1"

 

"What...what are your orders, sir?"

 

"Son, this is the big one, the Secretary of Saidin and I are going to enter our access codes, along with the coordinates, I'm going to have to ask you, your first officer, and your missile officer to turn your keys and launch one (1) bird, all six re-entry vehicles, towards the following target."

 

"Sir...I..."

 

"This is a direct order from your Commander in Chief, son, along with the access codes."

 

"Yessir"

 

"Dragon Out"

 

"Charlie, Mike, we're going to have to take the girl up to 100 meters. Put me on the loudspeakers"

 

"Gentlemen, this is the Captain speaking. We've just received notification that Randland has gone to DARKCON 1. We've been order to deliver the first blow to the enemy. I know it's going to be a hard time for all of us, but I just wanted all of you to know I've got faith in each and every one of you. White Lions Roar!"

 

"Lions Roar!"

 

*Blightborder Aerospace Defense Command - BBORAD*

 

"Tovarish Great Lord! We haf deetected mizzle launch in Sector 13345.14"

 

"TSAG! TOVARISH HAND OF DARK, ACTIVATE 'TRUE POWER' ABM SYSTEM! NOTIFY TOVARISH NAE'BLIS THAT TIME HAS COME  FOR -"

 

"Tovarish Great Lord! It appears mizzle targeted towards Tovarisha Chosen Graendal's command in Arad Doman"

 

"OH, WELL, STAND DOWN 'TRUE POWER' THEN. NO NEED TO GET WORRIED"

 

"But Tovarish Great Lord!"

 

"EH, JUST HAVE SOME VODKA. VE HAF GOOD STOLICHNAYA AROUND HERE SOMEWHERE. REMEMBER TO TELL TOVARISH CHOSEN DEMANDRED THAT I AM WERY PLEASED BY THIS. MAYBE HE COULD BE PROMOTED, DA?"

 

"Da, Tovarish Great Lord."

[Beren]

Is that the only reason you guys are suggesting she didn't die? Seriously?

 

I think it is.

 

 

No, it is not, and can you please try to keep it to one post when no one is posting in between them? Those two posts are only 4 minutes apart.  :-\

 

 

I have several reasons that have been stated somewhere in this mess (I can't wait for the new threads) about why I think she is alive.

 

The whole Asmo thing was a joke. Although I was rather disappointed that Jason said to RAFO about Asmodean in his review and then nothing shows up. Grrrr....

 

Technically, I think we would have to see it in the next book if Graendal did kill him. We would probably see it early in the book from a Graendal PoV shortly before she got balefired. (if she did, which I doubt)

 

I am already starting my "I told you so!" list.  ;D

 

@ Micawber: Even if I disagree with you on things, you make me laugh hysterically with posts like the last one!  :P

 

 

 

Also, an interesting thought on the Dark Prophecy (I know Micawber doesn't want to hear that again).

 

Blood calls blood.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood was and blood is and blood ever shall be.

 

 

Could this have to do with Rand/Mat/Perrin being Ta'veren? We see the crazy ta'veren pulling start in the chapter titled "A Matter of Blood".

 

(and I expect to be absolutely slammed by Micawber or Luckers for this)

[SinisterDeath]

Sorry but balefiring objects doesn't burn them back in time. You also cannot tie a compulsion to an object so that it fades. Not to mention the fact that heavy compulsion - and this was heavier than that which left the cook braindead - cannot be undone by any means and have the person return to normal. The compulsion vanished and he returned to normal, therefor, balefire is the only option. This compulsion was heavier than on the cook and that was already incredibly strong compulsion. This was also "more subtle." There is exactly 1 person who is responsible for said heavy subtle compulsion and there is only 1 way to remove compulsion.

 

She's dead. Seriously. NOTHING said has been a valid point. Not a single argument. BS must be appalled at this discussion. It was written plain as day. Rand nuked her. That was the only way she would ever die. She's gone.

 

Rand ordered the fat man to go to the 'homestead of the nobel', and see if they were loyal to rand.

 

Rand Balefired the fortress probably enough to burn that thread back to 3 weeks ago.

 

So, think of it in the aspect of 'time travel'.

 

You tell a man to go to the biggest house in the land, and find if the person there is loyal.

Send them there.

Go back in time, before he arrives, and destroy it.

Re-enter the present.

 

Where did he go?

 

Answer, probably down to the village.

THUS he never met grendel and recieved the compulsion.

 

Also, where did it say he's compulsion was as severe as the childs? All nyneave basically said was 'yep he's been compulsed'. We have no clue that he WAS anywhere NEAR as 'complused' as the little boy had been. That takes a LOT of time and effort, even for one as her. Look at how long it took Nyneave to 'revese it all'. If it had only takenher half that time to construct it... I don't think she had nearly that much time to do so, specially if she believed rand was near. She probably compulsed him to tell everything he knew, including that RAND was there. She then most likely just re-wrote his memories, and sent him back to rand, probably thinking that will send him away.

 

The thing about her possibly 'tying' the weaves in a way that if something or someone had died, would release him of his 'compulsion' is simply an 'idea' if the balefire idea of him actually never 'entering' the fortress can be debunked. (Which it can't really, time travel is a finky mistress, and it doesn't play by the same rules.)

[richnewton82]

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[µ231282083275]

She's dead. Seriously. NOTHING said has been a valid point. Not a single argument. BS must be appalled at this discussion. It was written plain as day. Rand nuked her. That was the only way she would ever die. She's gone.

 

lol u mad

 

i thought my argument for at least considering that it was a random that laid the compulsion on the domani lord was p valid.   the whole encounter being a set up engineered by moridin makes sense - he obviously wants rand out there using balefire, weakening the pattern.  

 

the whole "only way" thing is a total fallacy btw - she could have died at the cleansing and she could be trapped at one of the forsaken meet ups as well.  she might be snared in the dream if she still walks it.  i'm sure there are other ways.  it was just the only way that rand could of think for HIM to kill her on his own.  

 

if she's dead then *shrug* okay - its not the way i would have had my favorite forsaken go out but i can live with it.  i just think its interesting to speculate

 

So she went to all of those lengths and had enough intel / was omnipotent enough to do ALLLLLLLL of that and go through all of that risk to convince Rand she's dead.

 

Instead of just running away. Like she's always done before.

 

So she went to all of those lengths of laying terribly complex and Forsaken-level Compulsion on some idiot that shows up telling her the Dragon is outside waiting to see what's up and she then stands around waiting for Rand to show up and ask is she was dinner plans.

 

Instead of just running away.  Like she's always done before

 

[Beren]

@ richnewton: Can we keep it civil here at least? State your arguments. Calling someone's idea an abomination is completely uncalled for. (unless they are saying Bela is the Creator)

 

 

Also, how do we know the guy isn't brain damaged? Rand just sends him on his merry way. And *gasp* could it be possible that the Chosen would know of a way to make the Compulsion unravel itself? Especially when Graendal is a master at it.

[nathanphilipbrown]

OK in all seriousness it does seem to me that Graendal is, as RJ would put it, 'toast'. BUT, has noone considered a further possibilty, namely that in the time between sending the soon-to-be-compulsed-lord in, and the sending of the balefire, padan fain or slayer or even tigraine went and killed graendal?! nope, none of you had thought of it, and we may indeed have on our hands a MUCH bigger whodunnit than "Who killed asmodean", namely, "Who really killed graendal?!".

 

The reason I've suggested the above is because this is JUST as absurd as people who are looking for ways to read every other meaning into the story besides the one that is plainly there, namely, Graendal is dead!

 

Meanwhile, and I really wish the moderators would let us start new threads, but did anyone think that the "You're-free-of-your-oaths-to-the-dark-lord-in-the-last-hour-of-your-life" thing was a fairly clumsy plot device? I mean, really? And does this only apply to people who know they will die within the next hour, or to everyone?!

[richnewton82]

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[SinisterDeath]

Also, an interesting thought on the Dark Prophecy (I know Micawber doesn't want to hear that again).

 

Blood calls blood.

Blood feeds blood.

Blood was and blood is and blood ever shall be.

 

 

Could this have to do with Rand/Mat/Perrin being Ta'veren? We see the crazy ta'veren pulling start in the chapter titled "A Matter of Blood".

 

(and I expect to be absolutely slammed by Micawber or Luckers for this)

 

It could be, who knows.

It could reffer to the Aes Sedia and there cleansing.

It could reffer to something completely different.

 

I also wrote something earlier (like page 2 or 3 ago) about what I think the ta'varen's role in the final battle will be.

 

Also, anyone else get the feeling that Egwene and Gawyn are ta'varen, albit weak ones? Those events in the Tower were just 'way' to improbably to not be. :P

 

 

Can someone with a fresher memory, remind me who Egwene's #2 was, in that 'arch-way' expereince she had when she became an accepted was? I think alot of us seem toforget that a dream ring + arch may have suspended that her expereince was more than just a 'random-mixed with her psyhee, and past expereinces) but rather a combination of that, and her innate 'dreaming' skills. ;)

 

Considering that we have 2 books to go, and if I think what we have witnessed in this book is to coinside what we know from her experience, we may know what the next few books may contain... If only partially correct...

 

Where was Verin during Asmo's disapearance?

[richnewton82]

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[Mr. Micawber]

What do you mean, Beren?

 

Dark Prophecy? I eat that fecal matter up!

 

Look, if you look up buyers of Dark Prophecy on the Randland section of E-Bay? Micawber's totally at the top, baby!

 

Hell, I've got all of Elan Morin's greatest hits, from Dark Prophecy Parts One thru Eleventy Billion, to Matter and Anti-Matter: Why the Big Guy Needs to Own Up to His Losing The Fantasy Baseball League for the Three Thousandth Year in a Row, to Rand Al'Lews Therin: Hero of the World or Huge Jerkhole

[SinisterDeath]

Sorry I was first appalled by your faulty logic. Then I realized why people are so adamant that she didn't die. And what a complete lack of deductive reasoning skills that implies. Considering I reasoned out that not only is she clearly dead but that her death has no impact at all on the possibility that she killed Asmodean shortly after reading the chapter. I mean really.. what grounds does the "she lives" theory even stand on at this point?

 

1. Obviously he was under heavy, subtle compulsion, the likes of which has rarely been seen in the books aside from a handful of Forsaken.

2. The only way to remove compulsion without destroying a person's mind is balefire.

3. The person who compelled him must have died by the balefire.

 

The absolute ONLY argument would be that Graendal somehow knew this would happen, planted the cook in Bandar Eban far ahead of time to lead a trail back to said location, had another very capable channeler ready to speak to the bait that Rand would send, and then wait and get balefired. All for the sole purpose of convincing Rand that she had been killed.

 

So she went to all of those lengths and had enough intel / was omnipotent enough to do ALLLLLLLL of that and go through all of that risk to convince Rand she's dead.

 

 

Instead of just running away. Like she's always done before.

 

 

Sorry but this theory is so outlandish as to be laughable. There's more reason to suggest Moraine or Lanfear killed Asmodean to suggest this. This is just an abomination.

 

 

 

 

sinister death - that theory is invalid. Objects do not burn backwards in time. Threads do. So no, he went into the place and got compelled, then it was undone. You seem to miss the part about Compulsion leaving brain damage. It doesn't matter if its removed because its tied to something (even though that's not possible) or removed by a channeler or simply released.. you can't compel somebody to that level without inflicting brain damage upon the ending of the compulsion unless the compulsion itself never occured. via balefire.

 

I don't see any hint that he was under as heavy compulsion as the boy was.

Simply that compulsion HAD been used on him.

Nyneave is still new at this 'compulsion' thing.

 

The only proof we have that compulsion is deadly when removed, is only the case of how grendal did it to the boy.

 

Grendal basically took the boys brain, Put it in a blender, and put in a pre-set of rules/phrases/routines/ect in there. He was escentially a robot.

That kind of compulsion takes TIME, lots and LOTS of time.

Unraveling it, as seen with the boy, leaves a drooling mess.

But compulsion that simply makes someone recall the past 5 minutes differently? possibly adding in a few more minutes? Not necissarilly deadly, specially if grendal didn't leave it as 'barbed and rough' as she normall did. I' was only listing other possibilities as to what happened.

 

Course you could also argue, that grendal already made her escape and let a black-ajah member practice it on the poor guy. Thats a possibility.

It may have been said that balefire only 'burns' 'threads' backward into the past and not affect 'objects', but in that particular question when RJ said that, it may have only been said so, out of simplicity sake.

 

 

Really, If I'm wrong. Who cares? I don't.

If I'm right, well at least I won't be shocked when I see grendal walk up.

Its simply good sense people.

 

Until you see the body.

They aint dead.

 

Until you see them on the autopsy table (like in CSI: Miami)

They aint dead.

 

Until The DO says 'she is gone, and won't come back'

She aint dead.

 

This is why in scary movies, you jump out of your seat, while I laugh at everyone for being SUPRISED when the bad guy comes back to life. ;)

 

She could be dead, I can be wrong, couldn't care less IF I'm wrong.

But at least if I am proven wrong by say, Sanderson (she's toast) I'll admit it. Will you admit your wrong if in the near future we find out, she isn't toast at all?

^_^

 

(course, Saying someone is Toast, doesn't mean they are dead. The could just be breakfast for trollocs...)

[SinisterDeath]

So she went to all of those lengths of laying terribly complex and Forsaken-level Compulsion on some idiot that shows up telling her the Dragon is outside waiting to see what's up and she then stands around waiting for Rand to show up and ask is she was dinner plans.

 

She didn't know that Rand was outside waiting... neither did Ramshalan for that matter. he thought he was to show up, deliver some terms, negotiate a bit, then head back to the gateway.

 

Aww, but he knew that rand had held the gateway open for him! And that he was waiting for him to return! THus Grendel would know that Rand was waiting for an answer from him!

[CTM]

I may have missed something, but is there any reason for Egwene to be confirming that Cadsuanes name was not on the list?

[ohaitharguiz]

I may have missed something, but is there any reason for Egwene to be confirming that Cadsuanes name was not on the list?

 

Just Egwene's suspicion of her being black.

[Mr. Micawber]

Look, I could be wrong about many things, but I *have* definitively answered the question of what Trollocs do for breakfast

 

"What for breakfast today, Narg?"

 

"Narg smart. Narg stay behind. Narg kill big jumara. Everyone getting jumara steaks."

 

"Mmmm, Throg love jumara steaks, Narg."

 

"Narg want to know if Throg and his friends want fruit. Is important to keep healthy to crush puny humans, and also to play Trollocball. Got spiny deathpears and poisonous apples of excruciating agony"

 

"Wow, Throg impressed. Narg gets Throg's favorites! Narg really is smart Trolloc"

[richnewton82]

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[µ231282083275]

She didn't know that Rand was outside waiting... neither did Ramshalan for that matter. he thought he was to show up, deliver some terms, negotiate a bit, then head back to the gateway.

 

really?  i have to reread this part i guess...  

 

one thing i wanted to know - maybe someone with a better memory than me can help  - moraine mentioned verin and alviarin in her letter to rand.  is it possible that she knew verin was black because perrin had asked her about The Lie?  

[Mr. Micawber]

Oh, Christ, I really shouldn't do this but I can't resist.

 

"Deep Blue smart. But Narg smarter. Narg make checkmate in one move. Narg find chess easy. Smelly nerds always tasty snack."

[richnewton82]

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[Ged]

I'm a little amazed that there are two books remaining at this point. With the way this book went, Rand could just casually remember some weakness of the DO, and go thrash him.

 

About Graendal, I wouldn't believe she was alive short of actual evidence to that effect this point, especially considering that this has the feel of stupid plot device to move story in required direction.

 

Yes, Graendal should've been very suspicious if she managed to get the story out of that messenger. Trying to play a game and then doing the obvious and compelling the messenger before sending him back seems like a strange risk to take... But like I said, it feels like a plot device to get rid of Graendal. Why she needed to be gotten rid of, and in this way, I'm not sure - but then, if I were writing the story, some of the Forsaken would definitely survive TG unharmed.

 

As for the Graendal killed Asmodean theory... I've never understood why people thought that. She had nothing much to gain and a lot to lose in attacking Asmodean in the middle of Rand's camp. She'd have no way to know that Lanfear had practically killed Asmodean's ability to channel. If she wanted to kill Asmodean, there should be zero expectation that she would physically go and try to attack the guy. Capturing a channeler or three (so they could link) or getting some Black Ajah, compelling them, and training them in some major attack weaves would be a much more effective approach, with much lower risk.

 

I think the only people who had reason to attack Asmodean were Shadow Assassins (like Shaidar Haran and maybe.. just maybe Luc), and Taim who may already have intended to try to replace Asmodean - although the amnesty hadn't been announced yet. No one else should be in a mood to go and risk battling one of the Forsaken (heck, its not like Asmodean without a shield wielding balefire wouldn't be a horrible threat to just about anyone, and who could know what a cornered animal might do)

[richnewton82]

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[µ231282083275]

ha i still think by far the cheapest plot device this book was having elaida go from being an arrogant and brittle dictator to functionally retarded.  generally i liked that sanderson narrowed the perspective of the book (fewest povs since tsr maybe) but i really wanted an elaida paragraph even just to explain what she was thinking!  

 

my other big complaint was that the pace in this was near airport-thriller level

[Ged]

@richnewton82: Asmodean's death didn't seem quite so random to me.

 

... Unfortunately, beyond here I think I'm once again heading towards levels of intelligence I'm not sure WoT characters have... Like if Graendal is in Rand's camp, a disguise is definitely appropriate. Asmodean should never have recognized her.

 

At the time though, the only people who occured to me who'd be doing the Shadow's dirty work, would've been... Luc really (for all that he shouldn't be attacking channelers).

 

It suddenly occurs to me... didn't that book end with Demandred meeting the DO?

 

 

Its amazing that we still don't know what Demandred is doing. He's either completely out of the way or completely in plain sight... not that I expect his plans to amount to much more than any of the other Forsaken. Its disgraceful how badly the talents of the Forsaken have been wasted.

 

@u23: At least this way, in two more books, a lot of stuff can be expected to happen, which is kinda cool. I'd always been worried that the last battle would have no time to amount to anything with just one book and a lot of loose ends remaining.

 

As for Elaida... the way she was taken out of the equation I think, is a bigger issue. It almost looked like Egwene would successfully topple Elaida - there was no need for the lameness of her getting captured by the Seanchan. In a sense she's being punished but it isn't a proper punishment in any sense.