Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[claireducky]

No, it is not possible to hide thread titles from appearing on the main forums.  Please be patient (book has been only out for 1 day after all), and hopefully those rules will be relaxed soon.  But for now, we must use what we have, which is these threads.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Wesley_O]

To change the pace a little, was anyone thrown off by the huge edge the light seems to have after this book?  I was always of the opinion that the Shadow was dominating, but this book seemed to swing the other way.  Rand finally rids himself of madness for good and kills one (or maybe two) of the forsaken for good.  He also finally seems to have a purpose.  Egwene not only unites the White Tower but kills a good quarter of the BA and banishes the rest.

 

The only blow to the light was the failed truce with the Seanchan and a few hurt feelings because of Rand's destruction.

 

There is a hope to the Light at the end of the book. At the same time, remember what Verin said, that the way the DO intended to fight would be nothing like what they thought. All this work could be for naught theoretically.

 

As for Rand's destruction I feel that after his change, he will go back and start cleaning up and letting others help him a.k.a. Caddy

[bushleague]

eh.. we had to wait for RJ to confirm that Sammael was dead.. the books were not clear there either. this isn't precedent setting at all.

 

did RJ actually confirm?  I don't doubt it, but Moridin had said he believed Sammael, or someone impersonating him was giving orders to trollocs.  He could also still be alive, unless RJ did say it?

 

But still the circumstances surrounding Sammael's death seemed more certain... there was NO time to escape masha'dar and Rand had watched it decend on him.  graendal however had much more time... plus the circumstances surrounding both were different.  Rand had been on Sammael's trail for a couple books.  That battle came to a head and we see Sammael taken out of the game.  Graendal was a new obsession for Rand.  He barely spent any time chasing her and blasts her away without even coming face to face?  All of the other chosen were either killed by Rand, in front of Rand or somewhere near Rand's sight.  The only exception being Osan'gar, but Rand sees his dead body.  I can't see her dying without Rand having some confirmation.

[Mr. Micawber]

Actually, regardless of whether Graendal is really dead, the book demonstrates that she can achieve reintegration even with people with real voices.

 

Of course, it would be a posthumous kind of thing, since her death real or imagined was the catalyst of Nynaeve and Min finally going to Cadsuane, and so allowing them to get Tam, but, still good job, Professor Nidar!

[richnewton82]

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[claireducky]

Various prophecies and viewings I feel I have a better handle on after this book:

 

He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope."

 

This could simply refer to the cleansing, but I want to note that Moridin is regarded as quite crazy and always has been, and his nickname back in the day was "Betrayer of Hope".  I've got a little pet theory that Moridin will be redeemed and turned back to the light, which would be a healing, in my opinion!

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

This first bit remind any one of Hinderstrap?  Also the red/black thing seems too obvious to only refer to his blood, what about Moridin's obsession with those colors.  Another connection.

 

"There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

 

Again, reference to hope (betrayer of hope was Ishy) and death (Moridin).  Could this passage refer to salvation for him?

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

 

Anybody wanna bet that now Rand has learned to love, the plant life might recover and actually look like spring?

 

"The seals that hold back night shall weaken,

and in the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born

amid the wailing of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

for winter's heart shall ride a black horse,

and the name of it is Death."

 

Winter's Heart is generally seeming to refer to Rand, and here he is riding a black horse (Moridin is always in black), and the name of it is Death.  (Hello! Moridin!)  Sounds a lot to me like Rand might use Moridin to accomplish a goal.

 

"As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes. The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords."

 

"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown."

 

I feel these are connected, similar verbiage used.  Ravens feed at his voice means to me that after seeing the seanchan efficiency, I believe his 'voice' on the matter will be to show some humility and bow to Fortuona.  Also fiery eyes reference brings up images of Ba'alzamon/Ishy.

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other."

 

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.

Isam waited in the high passes.

The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill.

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

The Time of Change has come.

 

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

"At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought."

 

 

We have a ton of references to threes or many becoming one in the series.  It is something of a holy theme almost.  Saidin/Saidar/TP, Avi/Min/Elayne, etc.  I really feel that the general meaning of these prophecies is that MANY things that were once divided will come together in the end days and at the LB.  WT Division: healed; BT and WT will be resolved soon, etc. LTT was not a part of fulfilling min's viewing, I don't think.  Rand stated that he was never two people at the end of TGS.  So the other has to be Moridin.

 

[luvtheedragon]

what actually happened in the end to Rand is a a mystery ... why did the tar'angral break ? and what was its effect on Rand ....was it that he was cured mentally or even physically ? all the wounds on his side,etc ? if those wounds are cured its a sure shot thing that the crops will grow and the food shortage will be gone ...there is prophesy wrt to this ... Also how soon can egeween and Gawyn get it going ; galad and berelain too ....how very very pathetic that the whole thing abt perrin v/s white cloak should be off screen !!!!

Verin thing made me go bonkers .... also the whole idea abt messana being laras seems possible ...i almost wonder when will the cleansing of the black tower start ???

[claireducky]

and can't forget these others that refer to the coming merging/whatever between Rand and Moridin:

 

Rand holding a sword that blazed like the sun, till she could hardly see that it was a sword, could hardly make out that it was him at all.

 

This seems directly connected to the sword of light/3 become one quote, and she can't actually see who is holding that light at the end.

 

A wolf - she was sure it was Perrin, though - fighting a man whose face kept changing.

 

Logain, laughing, steps over something onto a black stone. It looks like Rand's body, but when she touches his face it breaks like paper puppet.

 

Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.

 

the more you look at it, the more it seems obvious that he and moridin are going to have some sort of showdown or alliance with the winner retaining control of the body.

[claireducky]

what actually happened in the end to Rand is a a mystery ... why did the tar'angral break ? and what was its effect on Rand ....was it that he was cured mentally or even physically ? all the wounds on his side,etc ? if those wounds are cured its a sure shot thing that the crops will grow and the food shortage will be gone ...there is prophesy wrt to this ... Also how soon can egeween and Gawyn get it going ; galad and berelain too ....how very very pathetic that the whole thing abt perrin v/s white cloak should be off screen !!!!

Verin thing made me go bonkers .... also the whole idea abt messana being laras seems possible ...i almost wonder when will the cleansing of the black tower start ???

 

Not a mystery at all really... he decides to destroy the access key and the sa'angreal it connects to AFTER realizing that the reason he was fighting was so that people could continue to love, and so he could get the last battle right this time.  This revelation healed him mentally (doubt the wounds have changed), and he realized that nobody should have that much access to power (with the sa'angreal), so he turned his flow of power against it (in cairhien where it was being unearthed) and destroyed it.

 

 

[bushleague]

I agree on the Moridin coming back to the light.  He of all the Forsaken seems to care little for the earthly interests of the DO... he delegates all of the work to the chosen and focuses entirely on Rand making it to the last battle.  In the dream scene in this book he pretty much states that he does not care if the DO wins because he knows this battle will be fought time and time again.  As a philosopher he sees no end to this conflict besides the DO taking over and the pattern itself ending.  He also knows that th glory and power promised to the DO's followers is a lie because there will be no existence in which to give glory or power.

 

This seems like the same negative attitude Rand has on Dragonmount before he changes his mind.  This makes me think that the same could happen to Moridin.  

 

I don't think Ishy was ever completely insane... he just knew far more than everyone else.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

Richnewton we can just agree to disagree then. You have your points in the discussion and I have mine, and neither of us can really completely tell the other "No, you are wrong and I can prove it," so we can just rafo. I completely see your opinion, but do not agree with it. No biggie.

 

Claireducky brings up some very interesting ideas, and I also had said earlier that I think Moridin will turn coat and want to live. I think out of all of them, he is the most likely for Rand to grant pardon upon, as we don't hear much about his personal atrocities, like we have with some of the others. I think he has just been a good soldier for his lord throughout these 3000+ years, and hasn't gone off on personal vendettas against cities or whatever. Was it just me, or did his and Rand's fireside talk seem almost like a meeting of two old friends who had had a disagreement long ago, both are basically over it, but neither knows how to approach the other? I mean presumably Elan Morin and Lews Therin were coworkers at a minimum, and more likely at least amicable acquaintances. I just had a weird feel during those few pages, almost as if Moridin is in a time of questioning both himself and his motives. Maybe I am going to far by posting that, but whatever, make of my 'feel' what you will.

 

Anyways to top it off we are in for a long year, and an intense last two books.

[richnewton82]

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[Mr. Micawber]

Richnewton we can just agree to disagree then. You have your points in the discussion and I have mine, and neither of us can really completely tell the other "No, you are wrong and I can prove it," so we can just rafo. I completely see your opinion, but do not agree with it. No biggie.

 

Claireducky brings up some very interesting ideas, and I also had said earlier that I think Moridin will turn coat and want to live. I think out of all of them, he is the most likely for Rand to grant pardon upon, as we don't hear much about his personal atrocities, like we have with some of the others. I think he has just been a good soldier for his lord throughout these 3000+ years, and hasn't gone off on personal vendettas against cities or whatever. Was it just me, or did his and Rand's fireside talk seem almost like a meeting of two old friends who had had a disagreement long ago, both are basically over it, but neither knows how to approach the other? I mean presumably Elan Morin and Lews Therin were coworkers at a minimum, and more likely at least amicable acquaintances. I just had a weird feel during those few pages, almost as if Moridin is in a time of questioning both himself and his motives. Maybe I am going to far by posting that, but whatever, make of my 'feel' what you will.

 

Anyways to top it off we are in for a long year, and an intense last two books.

 

Uh.

 

No. Elan Morin's redemption could happen, he could turn his coat, but he'll need to do it in a Ingtar fashion. I.e. Die.

 

Elan Morin's public declaration was the start of the First War. He personally fought Lews Therin in the Shadow's attempt to take the capital and greatest city of the world. He was the overall leader of the Shadow during the War, not as general but as commander of the entire war effort.

 

Then, while the others were imprisoned he:

 

1. Created what we today know as Darkfriends (I believe absolutely that Mesaana, if given the Oath Rod, could have gotten out by saying she's not a Darkfriend, because it is clear from Lanfear that the other Chosen find the business of the Darkfriends a little ridiculous and a sign of Elan Morin's insanity)

 

2. Gathered the Trollocs into some semblance of organization, and placed the Dreadlords in charge.

 

3. Launched the Trolloc Wars, which lasted three centuries.

 

4. Created the Black Ajah

 

5. Completely corrupted Hawkwing into hating the Tower, sending his heirs off, and thus destroying the best chance for a unified and peaceful West

 

6. Ensured that the War of A Hundred Years was even *more* destructive than the Trolloc Wars, because damn if human beings can't destroy themselves without any help.

 

7. Led the Shadow's efforts to locate and deal with the Dragon Reborn.

 

8. Gave Rand a nasty cut.

 

9. Made a right stink in the Heart of the Stone for the poor majhere to clean up.

 

10. Regularly kills without any compunction or, indeed, any thought to the matter.

[Dunedain Fal]

No way Moridin will turn back to the Light.  Like Ituralde answered Turan's question of "Why do it if you know you are doomed?" to "Why does a crow fly?"  It is similar to the fable story of a turtle and a scorpion crossing the river.  Moridin is an anarchist.  He thrives on chaos and disorder because that's his nature.  He doesn't care if the world ends or all creation ends.  He just wants to see it burn.  He has the personality of an arsonist.

[Beren]

Alright, I have had some earth shattering thoughts on some of the prophecies after this book, so here goes...

 

Rand -- "How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

Aelfinn -- "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

I think we are looking at this the completely wrong way. The north and the east must be as one. This would be Saldea, Kandor, Arafel, Shienar, Tar Valon, Cairhein and Tear. The west and the south must be as one. This would be Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, Murandy and Illian. I am not sure which of the above, Andor fits in. THIS IS FORESHADOWED IN TGS! The two must be as one, I think this is where we make the biggest mistake. The two (Rand and Elan Morin) must be as one. If you would live, you must die. I have not yet thought of a good single answer to this thought there are many good theories, the body swap being my favorite. It never says the two are the lands. I think the two are Rand/Elan because of the following.

 

"Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." - From a fragmentary translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon, attributed to Lord Mangore Kiramin, Sword-bard of Aramaelle and Warder to Caraighan Maconar, into what was then called the vulgar tongue (circa 300 AB).

Ishamael thinks Rand turns the Wheel of Time. He needs to know differently before things are over. If they were as one, this would be accomplished.

 

 

OTHER PROPHECIES

He "shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf." He "shall bind the nine moons to serve him." He will heal "wounds of madness and cutting of hope." What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?

1) Something to come with Callandor?

2) Yet to be fulfilled. He will get The Seanchan's assistance.

3) He healed his own wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

4) He will break the chains of the DO and put him back in chains.

 

 

"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

The destruction of the CK. Once more RJ left us hints in Rand wondering why the CK was never prophecied about. It is right here. What men made will be shattered. I think the second part of this section will be fulfilled in AMoL.

 

"Prophecy says when the Stone of Tear falls, we will leave the Three-fold Land at last. It says we will be changed, and find again what was ours, and was lost."

This has not happened yet in my opinion. I think we will see the Stone of Tear destroyed in the coming books. The Aiel will go to a different world perhaps with the Ogier who are not of this world either and the Nym. The Aiel will then find the song again. The Three-fold Land is this world, not the waste itself.

 

 

 

So, what do people think? The last one is a bit of a stretch I know, but give me some good honest answers on whether it would be possible.

[Dunedain Fal]

I don't get it why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal when he could have leveled the Blight that was teeming with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.  If I was in his shoes, I would have leveled the Blight and the Trolloc armies and then destroy the Choedan Kal.

[Beren]

I don't get it why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal when he could have leveled the Blight that was teeming with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.  If I was in his shoes, I would have leveled the Blight and the Trolloc armies and then destroy the Choedan Kal.

 

Because he realized it was too powerful.

 

(And, it was prophesied that he must do so, but he didn't realize that.)

[Mr. Micawber]

Uh, Beren.

 

"Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time" is referring to Rand.

 

Because at this time, the end of ACOS, as Osan'gar is shouting "All Hail Rand Al'Thor, King of the World!", CrazyRand is thinking he "liked the sound of that".

 

This is part of Rand becoming CrazyRand. The man believes he is the be all and end all.

 

Moreover, the Two must be as One pretty clearly means to me that either the Seanchan and Rand need to be united, or it is a reference to Rand's necessary reintegration.

 

It wouldn't be the first; the blind man business all over the last twelve books also deals with Rand's need to figure out the deal with Lews Therin in his head.

[richnewton82]

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[Dunedain Fal]

I don't get it why Rand destroyed the Choedan Kal when he could have leveled the Blight that was teeming with Trollocs, Fades, and other shadowspawn.  If I was in his shoes, I would have leveled the Blight and the Trolloc armies and then destroy the Choedan Kal.

 

Because he realized it was too powerful.

 

(And, it was prophesied that he must do so, but he didn't realize that.)

 

I think the problem is that BS realized that the continued use of Choedan Kal would be a poor plot device and is actually a story/plot killer.  Why continue the plot when you have the one item that can destroy the Shadow in one swift stroke.  I think BS was struggling to put an end to Choedan Kal.  I think it would have been better if BS made it a conflict of choices to use the Choedan Kal: Use it to destroy the shadow but destroy the world or yourself to damnation for eternity or lose it and use your limited means to defeat the Shadow at great cost.  I don't think that the ending was really a conflict of choices that would allow to put Choedan Kal to rest gracefully.

 

The argument that "Choedan Kal is just too powerful" is just too simplistic at best.  There needs to be more depth to why Choedan Kal should be destroyed even before the Last Battle.

[Dunedain Fal]

By the way, Verin's end was one of the most poignant moments of WoT ranked along with Lord Ingtar's ending and Nyneave's Golden Crane moment.

[Beren]

Uh, Beren.

 

"Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time" is referring to Rand.

Read the prologue to TGS again. Elan Morin aka Ishy aka Moridin thinks that Rand (the Dragon) turns the Wheel of Time.

 

Also note the words used. "Who" does not necessarily mean the dragon. It could mean someone else. "He" means the Dragon as that is who this prophecy is about.

 

 

Moreover, the Two must be as One pretty clearly means to me that either the Seanchan and Rand need to be united, or it is a reference to Rand's necessary reintegration.

No to the re-integration. That is covered in "the many become one" section at the end of the book.

[The Desert Pea]

I just realized something; Rand said his only way to not be drawn to use the True Power again was because he had the Choedan Kal to cancel out that temptation. But now what? Do you think Rand will be able to ignore that draw now? His mental state does seem much better by the end of the book, but still, the True Power is even more addictive than the One Power...