The Dark One, Travelling and The Bore.

[Mr Ares]

As I have stated though the fact that they can both have the same end means that when they do have the same ends they are in the same category i.e. Compulsion with a capital C.

No. They are still different things. Compulsion is one thing, torture is another. Intent is not important. A flamethrower doesn't stop being a flamethrower because you use it to make toast. Compulsion is not torture and torture is not Compulsion. They are different weaves, that may be used for the same ends.

[Lambada]

As I have stated though the fact that they can both have the same end means that when they do have the same ends they are in the same category i.e. Compulsion with a capital C.

No. They are still different things. Compulsion is one thing, torture is another. Intent is not important. A flamethrower doesn't stop being a flamethrower because you use it to make toast. Compulsion is not torture and torture is not Compulsion. They are different weaves, that may be used for the same ends.

The flamethrower (object) is still a flamethrower (object) but with the intent to make toast it can come under the Toasters category. After-all what is the end of all the objects in the category toaster but to make toast? Similarly the Torture (weave) is still a Torture (weave) but with the intent to compel someone it comes under Compulsion (category). After-all what is the point of all the weaves under Compulsion (category) but to compel someone?

 

[Agitel]

As I have stated though the fact that they can both have the same end means that when they do have the same ends they are in the same category i.e. Compulsion with a capital C.

No. They are still different things. Compulsion is one thing, torture is another. Intent is not important. A flamethrower doesn't stop being a flamethrower because you use it to make toast. Compulsion is not torture and torture is not Compulsion. They are different weaves, that may be used for the same ends.

The flamethrower (object) is still a flamethrower (object) but with the intent to make toast it can come under the Toasters category. After-all what is the end of all the objects in the category toaster but to make toast? Similarly the Torture (weave) is still a Torture (weave) but with the intent to compel someone it comes under Compulsion (category). After-all what is the point of all the weaves under Compulsion (category) but to compel someone?

 

 

The point is that the weaves are named according to the weaving, not by their ultimate end. The books name Traveling and Skimming separately, both as different weaves and also as different Talents, given their capital letters. If you want to classify them in the same grouping, that's different, but it does NOT fall under Compulsion as it is meant by the specific weave. Also, what Semirhage did was not even a way to take over the mind. The weave itself didn't even force a decision or a suggestion onto them, it just inflicted pain or pleasure. She could have done similar without the One Power.

[crazyfool]

There's no point in arguing with him, he has his beliefs about the world and if he wants to call torture compulsion and rape sex then he can.

[Lambada]

@Agitel

I would put them under the same grouping under the circumstances I have described as they lead to the same result (in the same way as the flamethrower example you gave me). Semirhage did inflict pain or please but with the intent to compel the Aes Sedai to give the information she wanted.

As I believe I have stated before, we are obviously working from different definitions with mine being an ends based approach, yours being a means-based approach.

Either way this would not defeat the theory which this thread was intended to discuss.

 

@crazyfool

I would call torture Compulsion only under the limited set of circumstances I have described here. Torture is not always compulsion - it depends upon the intent of the torturer. So I feel that by making such a broad generalisation you have missed the entire point of my reasoning on this issue. Likewise the intent of the rapist will influence whether that is, from the rapists point of view, called sex or rape. If they raped someone with the intent of gaining sexual satisfaction then to them that would be sex. If they did it with the intent to physically abuse someone then that would to them be someone else entirely, perhaps a way of showing dominance. Because of the huge generalisation you made, it is impossible to say whether it would be or not.

Once again, you missed the entire point in that the intent must be taken into account when classing things as one type or another.

[Blackhoof]

If Lambada is saying that Sermirhage was using the weave Compulsion or any of its variants (which i dont think he is) then he is wrong, if he is refering to the categories that compelled (lower-case c) Cabriana to give info (torture, different weave, same ends)then he is right. torturing someone could be classed as compelling, or forcing someone to do something, even if you are not using Compulsion (weave).

 

Anyhow.... what were we discussing before we went off into this torture/Compulsion tangent?

[Mr Ares]

Similarly the Torture (weave) is still a Torture (weave) but with the intent to compel someone it comes under Compulsion (category).

No. The torture weave is a different weave and is not classed as Compulsion. Compulsion doesn't work like that.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I've a question concerning the dark one and him breaking free.

Right the whole food spoiling, unnatural weather patterns, rooms and corridors moving, dead walking and that ripple that Faile felt the effect of in KOD are all due to the dark ones grip on the world getting stronger. This is due to the seals all weakening right? Ok so the seals only covered up the bore drilled by the age of legends guys. When you think that the world is basically in chaos as it is and there still is three seals left. What was it like in the age of legends? How the people survive in a world where there was no seals stopping the dark one? Surely he could of caused havoc when the his prison was origibally breached and the good guys wouldn't of really stood a chance.

[Lambada]

@Blackhoof

Finally someone gets my point! Is it the way i've phrased it do you think that's making it hard to understand?

I believe it was the plausability of my theory set out on the first page of the thread.

 

@Mr Ares

Depending upon the intent of the weaver it can be classed as compulsion, in the limited circumstances set out, as the intent behind it could be to compel someone to give information. A category can have more than one weave in it, hence why the fact it is a different weave is irrelevent.

 

@Owayn The Traveller

Hmmm, interesting question. He certainly could have caused havoc- I think perhaps it might have something to do with the fact when the Bore was breached he was fully released so he could be very subtle. But now he's still partially constrained by the seals so he can't be as subtle in his deeds? That is not to say he isn't subtle, but merely that he's not as subtle as he was. Another answer might be that when it was originally opened he brought in war and suffering etc. this time though the world still knew war and suffering so he couldn't have brought that into the world. Not sure overall - could be totally wrong.

[Mr Ares]

Depending upon the intent of the weaver it can be classed as compulsion

No, it can't.

[Lambada]

Depending upon the intent of the weaver it can be classed as compulsion

No, it can't.

Well that was a very detailed and rational response. I've already given plenty of detailed cases where it can. Every example you've given i've incorporated into my theorised system. If you don't agree with the definition which I use (that is ends are more important in weave categorisation than the weave itself) then just say so and we can agree to disagree. Unless that is what you meant by your above statement, in which case I apologise for the past 4 sentences. Either way an undetailed sentence like that helps neither of us.

[mellojoe]

I've a question concerning the dark one and him breaking free.

Right the whole food spoiling, unnatural weather patterns, rooms and corridors moving, dead walking and that ripple that Faile felt the effect of in KOD are all due to the dark ones grip on the world getting stronger. This is due to the seals all weakening right? Ok so the seals only covered up the bore drilled by the age of legends guys. When you think that the world is basically in chaos as it is and there still is three seals left. What was it like in the age of legends? How the people survive in a world where there was no seals stopping the dark one? Surely he could of caused havoc when the his prison was origibally breached and the good guys wouldn't of really stood a chance.

Before the Bore, if I remember correctly, the Dark One was banished by the Creator.  It was only during the Age of Legends that the Bore was drilled, allowing the Dark One to start touching the pattern.  Then Lews Therin (and his Hundred Compaiions, right?) put a patch on the Bore, sealing it with the 7 seals.

 

Before the Bore, the Dark One had no direct influence on the Pattern, I don't believe.  It was only his darkfriends making the Bore that allowed it to be so.

[Agitel]

Depending upon the intent of the weaver it can be classed as compulsion

No, it can't.

Well that was a very detailed and rational response. I've already given plenty of detailed cases where it can. Every example you've given i've incorporated into my theorised system. If you don't agree with the definition which I use (that is ends are more important in weave categorisation than the weave itself) then just say so and we can agree to disagree. Unless that is what you meant by your above statement, in which case I apologise for the past 4 sentences. Either way an undetailed sentence like that helps neither of us.

 

But that's not how the definitions work in the books is the point.

[Lambada]

Well that was a very detailed and rational response. I've already given plenty of detailed cases where it can. Every example you've given i've incorporated into my theorised system. If you don't agree with the definition which I use (that is ends are more important in weave categorisation than the weave itself) then just say so and we can agree to disagree. Unless that is what you meant by your above statement, in which case I apologise for the past 4 sentences. Either way an undetailed sentence like that helps neither of us.

But that's not how the definitions work in the books is the point.

I would disagree there - we've heard them naming individual weaves, but we've never heard them specifically talk about categories of weaves. And yet there are hints that there are some kind of categories. For instance wilders that arrive in the Tower sometimes have a way to make their dads buy them that dress (I think that's the example Verin used). The White Tower forces them to stop weaving those weaves though as they are considered too close to the Compulsion weave, so while not of the same Weave they are considered to be in the same Category based upon the end they produce.

[chill]

back on topic, i think what the OP wrote has a lot of merit.  some of it can be corroborated by what was said in TGS.  think about how the hundred companions are all male using saidin, and how they could only form an imperfect seal using the cuendillar disks.  saidar or true source seems to be the key in patching up the hole permanently.  the cuendillar disks could also be some kind of power source that fuels the seal.

[mb]

back on topic, i think what the OP wrote has a lot of merit.  some of it can be corroborated by what was said in TGS.  think about how the hundred companions are all male using saidin, and how they could only form an imperfect seal using the cuendillar disks.  saidar or true source seems to be the key in patching up the hole permanently.  the cuendillar disks could also be some kind of power source that fuels the seal.

The original topic seemed to been about the Bore's creation, not about the Bore's sealing.

And I take the original poster intended for Gathering Storm to be left out of this discussion.

 

Like I speculated earlier in this thread, Blossoms of Fire might have been a more probable weave that created the Bore.

 

[Lambada]

back on topic, i think what the OP wrote has a lot of merit.  some of it can be corroborated by what was said in TGS.  think about how the hundred companions are all male using saidin, and how they could only form an imperfect seal using the cuendillar disks.  saidar or true source seems to be the key in patching up the hole permanently.  the cuendillar disks could also be some kind of power source that fuels the seal.

Thanks for the support with the theory that this thread was meant to discuss - I hadn't thought of incorporating the role of the cuendillar discs, that might be worth a bit more exploration at some point.

 

The original topic seemed to been about the Bore's creation, not about the Bore's sealing.

And I take the original poster intended for Gathering Storm to be left out of this discussion.

 

Like I speculated earlier in this thread, Blossoms of Fire might have been a more probable weave that created the Bore.

I intended the original post to be about both the creation of the Bore and the Sealing as I believe that explaining how exactly the Bore was made could hold the final key to resealing the Bore fully - undoubtedly what went wrong with LTT's plan is a major part of the resealing, but I don't think that on its own can provide a full explanation of how to seal the Bore.

Hmm Blossoms of Fire might work, but i'm not sure that it actually creates a hole in the Pattern - although it seems to be a solid version of the edge of a gateway (destroying everything it touches, rather than slicing as it were. Perhaps a modification would be needed to the theory.

[Blackhoof]

To me, Blossoms of Fire appear to be just a big, fiery explosion, but a modification that allowed it to invisibly cut through reality might be posible.

 

@Ares

I am not saying that the torture weaves are compulsion, just that Semirhage was using them to force Cabriana to do something, ie: compelling her. Forget that i said compelling, she was forcing or making her do something, both of those words mean the same as compelling someone to do something. Dont you see? We dont mean the weave Conpulsion, just the act of making someone do something with the power, without using the actual weave. Get it? If you dont, then we'll all just have to agree to disagree because we cant explain what we mean. I'm okay with that.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I've a question concerning the dark one and him breaking free.

Right the whole food spoiling, unnatural weather patterns, rooms and corridors moving, dead walking and that ripple that Faile felt the effect of in KOD are all due to the dark ones grip on the world getting stronger. This is due to the seals all weakening right? Ok so the seals only covered up the bore drilled by the age of legends guys. When you think that the world is basically in chaos as it is and there still is three seals left. What was it like in the age of legends? How the people survive in a world where there was no seals stopping the dark one? Surely he could of caused havoc when the his prison was origibally breached and the good guys wouldn't of really stood a chance.

Before the Bore, if I remember correctly, the Dark One was banished by the Creator.  It was only during the Age of Legends that the Bore was drilled, allowing the Dark One to start touching the pattern.  Then Lews Therin (and his Hundred Compaiions, right?) put a patch on the Bore, sealing it with the 7 seals.

 

Before the Bore, the Dark One had no direct influence on the Pattern, I don't believe.  It was only his darkfriends making the Bore that allowed it to be so.

 

Yes but once it was drilled and there were no seals restraining him in his influence on the pattern surely he could of wreaked havoc and by the time the age of legends guys got together it would of been to late. When you see the effect he has on the pattern now with three seals restricting him imagine what the dark one could of achieved with no seals stopping him after the bore.

[Mr Ares]

I've already given plenty of detailed cases where it can.

No you haven't.

If you don't agree with the definition which I use

I don't, I prefer to use the one the characters in the book used. One in which even Verin's Compulsion is only debatably so, and the AS don't generally count what can be done through the Warder bond as Compulsion. You are wrong. Compulsion is quite specific, and it doesn't cover every weave to make people do what you want. Same as Traveling doesn't cover every weave to get from one place to another, it covers only a very specific way of getting about (one that can be woven in multiple way, but still specific in terms of what is counted).

 

I am not saying that the torture weaves are compulsion, just that Semirhage was using them to force Cabriana to do something, ie: compelling her.

Yes, compelling, not Compelling. Small c, not capital. It is not Compulsion, in terms of the weave, any more than travelling via horse and cart is not Traveling, the weave.

We dont mean the weave Compulsion

Who is we? You don't mean that. Lambada does.

[SheaththeSword]

There are several major problems with this whole argument, but one big one is that Aes Sedai DO NOT seem to have a rational classification of weaves.

 

Ok so new healing, old healing and aeil healing, new is most different but they still call it healing. Also, ye seem to have forgotten that for traveeling there are two different weaves, one for men, one for women! In the books i get the impression that weaves are named any which way, more often than not if they cause the same effect they get called the same thing. Skimming and Travelling are not called the same thing as they do actually have different effects (ease getting to/from place you don't know, time, where the 'portal' will open to, destination or between threads, etc.) but they have the overall same effect. They have been named simply on human feeling.

 

Compulsion has not and CANNOT be classified by Aes Sedai living today as it has fallen completely out of use among channelers from the present day (inc sea folk, seanchan, randlanders and aeil.)

 

If the Compulsion weave used by the Forsaken was, hypothetically, told and kept known to the top five sitters and the amyrlin, for a hypothetical reason such as being able to recognise if someone was weaveing it and be able to stop them, then PERHAPS they might call Verin's weave a 'new' Compulsion (in the same vein as new healing, but obv less rather than more effective), or they might not. They might choose to simply class it an inneffective weave, or something else entirely.

 

[glow=orange,2,300]The point is, they DON'T HAVE A CLASSIFICATION FOR WEAVES, AND DEFINATELY NOT COMPULSION![/glow]

 

Sheesh.....

 

So can we get back to topic? Unless someone would care to prove IN A NEW THREAD, circumstantially or otherwise, the existence of some kind of Aes Sedai classification of weave,  or Aeil classification of weaves, (and Compulsion is a non-runner, not known to wither of these groups), this matter should be closed.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Also, ye seem to have forgotten that for traveeling there are two different weaves, one for men, one for women!

No. More. Avi Travels one way in FoH, which she subsequently cannot remember, so uses the way the others use, which is less effective for her due to the second weave limitation.

 

Compulsion has not and CANNOT be classified by Aes Sedai living today as it has fallen completely out of use among channelers from the present day

That's not true. In fact, Compulsion is one of the most common weaves for sparkers to learn, alongside some for of eavesdropping. The Tower roots out these weaves, and forces them to forget them. Verin has a cobbled together version. BA use it - Liandrin has a version. AS can and do have a classification for what constitutes Compulsion. But what Semi did doesn't match it.

[SheaththeSword]

 

Compulsion has not and CANNOT be classified by Aes Sedai living today as it has fallen completely out of use among channelers from the present day

That's not true. In fact, Compulsion is one of the most common weaves for sparkers to learn, alongside some for of eavesdropping. The Tower roots out these weaves, and forces them to forget them. Verin has a cobbled together version. BA use it - Liandrin has a version. AS can and do have a classification for what constitutes Compulsion. But what Semi did doesn't match it.

 

So your saying the small, intuitive weaves if you will, are still named as the same as a fuller version of it? Such as the example Verin gives for girls making fathers buy them dresses (or similar), or Nynaeve's "miracle's", are still named by living Aes Sedai as Compulsion and Healing?

 

They root them out, certainly, but for the reason that these weaves contain elements of the banned Compulsion, not that they are the one and the same in name and/or effect. So perhaps Verin MIGHT recognise a true AOL compulsion weave, but other AS can't possibly know what to look for. They would hear of the effects on, say, the girls' fathers, and stop them channeling that or anything during novice years unsupervised. They would not recognise a Comp. weave

[Mr Ares]

So your saying the small, intuitive weaves if you will, are still named as the same as a fuller version of it?

They are Compulsion, so yes.

[SheaththeSword]

We can argue new points for eternity. My point is just that  AS (except one) don't recognise the weaving of compulsion. It's effects, sure, but they'v suppressed anything like it so long they don't actually know much/enough about it anymore to classify it.

 

From that, i argue they have no classification.

And i beg to get back to topic XD