3 days

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sumeko is more skilled, has more knowledge than Nynaeve. Personally, though, likeable or not, Nynaeve seems to be more talented, and is certainly stronger. Sumeko has had probably a couple hundred years to practice and learn (albeit in secret). Nynaeve is what, 26? And has been consciously channeling for 2 years or so?

 

I guess it depends on your definition of "better".

[Luckers]

Nynaeve is stronger in the power. Healing is a talent and a skill, both of which require not pre-requisite strength.

 

Sumeko's knowledge exceed Nynaeve's, and her talent is strong... therefore her skill exceeds Nynaeve's. As is indeed stated by Nynaeve herself.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Nynaeve is stronger in the power. Healing is a talent and a skill, both of which require not pre-requisite strength.

 

Sumeko's knowledge exceed Nynaeve's, and her talent is strong... therefore her skill exceeds Nynaeve's. As is indeed stated by Nynaeve herself.

 

All of which agrees with the first sentence of my post ... ahem

 

Sumeko is more skilled, has more knowledge than Nynaeve.

 

You define "currently more skilled" as "better". OK.

 

I include potential in my defintion, and I believe that Nynaeve's potential surpasses Sumeko's.

 

Therefore, we define the word "better" differently. I don't think we're disputing the "facts" in the story, we're disputing the definition of "better". So, as I said ...

 

I guess it depends on your definition of "better".

[Luckers]

Perhaps so. Currently Sumeko surpasses Nynaeve, and that is the crux of my post.

 

Also, i do not see how Nynaeve's skill will develop beyond what it is. She knows as much as is avalliable for learning... more the Sumeko, who only knows her specific method of healing. Nynaeve knows three, the original, or own, and Sumeko's, yet Sumeko's ability exceeds hers.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Also, i do not see how Nynaeve's skill will develop beyond what it is.

 

Now, that I disagree with. What, at 26, with approximately 2 years of conscious channeling, she will no longer be able to study or learn or develop her skills? She will remain, exactly as she is, for possibly a few hundred years, and not increase her skill at all? No more new discoveries? She's learned all she can know? That just seems ... ludicrous to me. One of the benefits of her "new" method is that it isn't a single weave, it is a style of weaving, where each problem in the body is solved differently. She will surely learn more specific solutions with practice and research ...

 

In my opinion.

[Luckers]

Channalers talents do not grow in that manner, they set. Concider Romanda. Concider all the Aes Sedai. Yes, i do not see Nynaeve growing especially better... more refined in what she does now, maybe, but not to such a degree that she will surpass Sumeko.

 

I also suspect this is a theme RJ intentionally introduced. His heroes are not god. He has systematically destroyed each thing that made them special. Rand is no longer the only male channeler. Nynaeve is no longer the wonder healer. The Wonder Girls are no longer the only ones discovering new weaves (as much as they did).

 

The point is not to weaken the characters, but to make them human, and in that humanity make them great. They are not special because of some unique ability or special gift, they are special because of the actions they take and the decisions they make.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of which is pretty true, but it overlooks one thing.

 

None of the Wonder girls has yet acquired "the ageless look." That is what seems to signal that an Aes Sedai has reached the limits of her potential and can go no further.

[Guest Majsju]

None of the Wonder girls has yet acquired "the ageless look." That is what seems to signal that an Aes Sedai has reached the limits of her potential and can go no further.

 

'scuse me?

 

The ageless look is a result of taking the three Oaths. Which none of the wonder girls have done yet.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Apologies. My statement was in error. The Kin do not have the ageless look and all of them have progressed as far as their native ability will permit.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Concider Romanda. Concider all the Aes Sedai.

 

They're set because they choose to close their minds. Nynaeve has consistently discovered new things on her own. Why would she stop?

 

The Wonder Girls are no longer the only ones discovering new weaves (as much as they did).

 

Actually, the influx of new discoveries made by others (some made by well established Sisters, like Nacelle Sedai discovering how to detect a male's channeling) would indicate that progress and learning is entirely possible.

 

So, when exactly do a channelers skills become set in stone?

[Taz]

Didn't Moiraine say something on the lines of her increase in channeling ability? She said she had 'changed' over the last year or so since she met the Two Rivers folk. She was channeling a lot under pressure and extreme tiredness - seems to me any channeler would still continue to learn if they were open to it.

Its a shame all the chanellers seem to be so secretive of transferring skills, especially between different groups - the Kin, Windfinders, Wise Ones etc. I mean come on, TG is coming and there's still no co-ordinated pulling together of the light...

[Guest Majsju]

The ability that is limited is the amount of power that can be channeled, not the level of skill. If that had been the case, none of the Yellow sisters would have been able to pick up Nynaeve's new Healing, but we know several of them have.

[Gidar]

But Nynaeve can only channel when she get pissed off...That's her weakness

[Magicana]

But Nynaeve can only channel when she get pissed off...That's her weakness

 

Looks like someone skipped over the Ebou Dar section of the book involving Nynaeve.

[Gidar]

Ebou Dar.??... I've heard about it but.. never read about it in the book.-.. Nynaeve is in Tanchico or something with Elayne...I'M SURE i'll come to that in the future...

[TheDiceAgain...]

That's the problem with coming here before you've read through the series. Most of what is discussed assumes that you've read at least through Winter's Heart or Crossroads of Twilight.

 

Not saying you should leave, but there will be spoilers.

[Magicana]

Ebou Dar.??... I've heard about it but.. never read about it in the book.-.. Nynaeve is in Tanchico or something with Elayne...I'M SURE i'll come to that in the future...

 

Tanchico... book four?

 

This definetly isn't the forum for you then ;). You will probally have the books spoiled for you if you read the threads here.

[Luckers]

They're set because they choose to close their minds. Nynaeve has consistently discovered new things on her own. Why would she stop?

 

Actually its not, which is why i specifically chose the case of Romanda. Channelers cannot learn a second way of weaving a weave. The Aiel are trying with the Aes Sedai and failing. Nynaeve's abilities are set by the knowledge she had when everyone started espousing her greatness at healing which is why she will never have Sumeko's natural talent with Sumeko's way of healing. Exactly the same as why Romanda will never master Nynaeve's.

 

Actually, the influx of new discoveries made by others (some made by well established Sisters, like Nacelle Sedai discovering how to detect a male's channeling) would indicate that progress and learning is entirely possible.

 

Thats out of context, i did not raise that as an example of channelers being unable to learn new methods of talents they currently have. Learning new things is different to advancing or altering current things, and Nynaeve's ability to heal falls under that.

 

Channelers can completely continue to learn. They can learn new things on their death bed. The point was not in innovation and new weaves, but in new methods. We have seen Aes sedai fail to extend their ability in healing beyond their original talents... they learn them, but they are never as good with them. We have seen Nynaeve herself do this with Sumeko's methods, which is why Nynaeve will never exceed Sumeko. Sumeko, on the other hand, continues to be able to learn because she always assumed that she knew nothing, or rather very little. Nynaeve got set during the phase where she was teaching everyone her method, utilizing a different method of weaving to heal is now beyond her, like learning a new way of weaving fireballs without the throwing motion.

 

So, she will be able to refine her current abilities, but she will not be able to learn the new methods and different healing weaves.

[RobertAlexWillis]

So, she will be able to refine her current abilities, but she will not be able to learn the new methods and different healing weaves.

 

Then how did she learn the weave to Heal stilling after she had already developed her method of Healing?

 

Thats the whole difference between Nynaeve's method and the old Aes Sedai method of Healing. The old method is one weave, the exact same weave every time, that Heals everything at once. Nynaeve's method is not a single, new weave, but an actual method of treating each problem individually. That is how she can Heal Rand's stump without touching his eyes. Within that method, many, many new weaves can be learned. There is no reason that she will not continue to expand her repertoire of weaves, as well as her facility in using the weaves she already knows.

[Luckers]

Then how did she learn the weave to Heal stilling after she had already developed her method of Healing?

 

It's based on her method of healing. She does not have one weave that she always uses, but her methodology has a basic set to it, one that is different to the basic set of the normal Aes Sedai healing, and that of Sumeko.

 

Channelers cannot attempt to use a different style of weaving to attain the same effect, this has been set by comments about the Aiel trying to train the Aes Sedai apprentices in their method of weaving. The new method is never anywhere near as strong as the original. And this has been applied to healing, within the texts, which shows that it happens there too.

[dyring]

Actually its not' date=' which is why i specifically chose the case of Romanda. Channelers cannot learn a second way of weaving a weave. The Aiel are trying with the Aes Sedai and failing. Nynaeve's abilities are set by the knowledge she had when everyone started espousing her greatness at healing which is why she will never have Sumeko's natural talent with Sumeko's way of healing. Exactly the same as why Romanda will never master Nynaeve's.

[/quote']

 

Well. That part is wrong thou.

 

From Knife of dreams.(page 488 in my copy)

 

This is romanda thinking to herself (cba to type the whole page)

 

She herself had learned the new way, but while it was different enough from the old that the second-learned weawe limitation seemed not to apply, she had no great gift for it. Not nearly what she had for the old method.

 

Can´t see it mattering that much thou, sumeko´s healing, and its differences/advantages comparing to Nynaeves wasent discussed that much in the books. I don´t think it´s as big a leap up as nynave´s way was. Ofcourse, sumeko´s and Nynave´s healing may be close enough that second-learned thing applies. Wouldent know about that.

 

//dyring

 

 

Edit, hmm, really cant see whats wrong with my quoting there, oh well, you see what I mean.

[Gidar]

Ebou Dar.??... I've heard about it but.. never read about it in the book.-.. Nynaeve is in Tanchico or something with Elayne...I'M SURE i'll come to that in the future...

 

Tanchico... book four?

 

This definetly isn't the forum for you then ;). You will probally have the books spoiled for you if you read the threads here.

 

Ohh that's already too late.. I know more than I should so... :( But whatever.. I like this site so I wont quit.