Min's Viewings about Elayne

[Charlz Guybon]

The viewings

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/mins-viewings.html

“One of the things she said she saw looking at me [Elayne] was a severed hand. Not mine, she says."

 

-The Great Hunt, New Friends and Old Enemies

 

 

The severed hand is another mystery that has yet to be solved.

 

and above Elayne's [head], a red-hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future.

-The Great Hunt, A Plan

 

 

These have not occurred yet. First, a severed hand, and now a red-hot iron and an axe, both meaning trouble. The iron could be used to torture information out of Elayne's prisoner and the axe, the headsman's axe for punishment of their crimes. The viewings of Elayne--axe, hand, and iron--are the most obscure of all Min's viewings.

 

First off, the severed hand is most likely Rand's. Who else could it belong to.

 

As for the second viewing, I see two distinct possibilities. First that Elayne uses Sylvase's "secretary" to torture the captured darkfriends, and then she executes the Black Ajah sisters (which would be against Tower law).

 

The second possibility is that Sylvase is Cyndane or Moghedien and her secretary is used on Elayne herself.

 

Does anyone see any other possibilities?

[Bob T Dwarf]

There are only two severed hands that we know about.

 

Rand.  But his was blown off and disintegrated, so anything pertaining to him should be about a maimed arm, not the hand, since that no longer exists in any form.

 

The second is the one that Perrin caused while trying to get information about Faile from the captured Shaido.  That involved an axe, but hot coals, not "a red-hot iron."

 

In sum, I'd say both viewings are too ambiguous to say whether they've been fulfilled or remain in the future.

[Luckers]

First off, the severed hand is most likely Rand's. Who else could it belong to.

 

I don't know who else it might belong to, but Rand's hand was blown up, not severed. I can't really see how Rand loosing his hand effected Elayne either. It might make her sad, but I don't see why Min would see it around Elayne.

 

The second possibility is that Sylvase is Cyndane or Moghedien and her secretary is used on Elayne herself.

 

There is a fair bit of evidence to support the idea that Sylvase is Cyndane--and the idea that Elayne get's tortured could fit with her arrogant certainty of her own safety until the children are born.

[Mashiara Sedai]

*gasps*  I never heard that Sylvase might be Cyndane!  Where is that theory posted?  Do anyone have a link?

 

~Mashiara

[Luckers]

Alrighty then, clearly it hasn't been spoken in a while.

 

The idea that Sylvase has been replaced by Cyndane began with the similarities in their descriptions. Both women are short, with silvery-blond hair and an icy demeanor. At the beginning Sylvase is described as being stupid, but notice the sequence of the descriptions of her—take note of the descriptions of her prettiness, and her stupidity.

 

Descriptions

 

Firstly Elenia.

his eyes sought through the shadowed crowd on horseback behind her, and his face relaxed when he found Sylvase, his granddaughter and heir, a sturdy, placid young woman who met his gaze, unsmiling, then pulled her dark, fur-lined cowl well forward. She never smiled or frowned or showed any emotion at all that Elenia had ever detected, just kept an unvarying cowlike expression. Plainly, she had a cow’s wits, too.

 

Elenia clearly dismisses her, yet just a bit later when Arymilla offers her maid to Nasin (Sylvase’s ‘grandfather’) Elenia is unnerved by Sylvase’s reaction.

Suddenly all lickspittles and toad-eaters were adjusting their cloaks against the wind or snugging their gloves, looking anywhere except at Arymilla’s maid. Especially the women. One of them could have been chosen as easily, and they knew it. Oddly, Sylvase did not look away. It was impossible to see her face in the shadows of her hood, but the opening turned to follow the slender woman.

 

So—vapid, sturdy and not very pretty—yet Elenia is still unnerved by her. This description is further supported by Arymilla’s position

 

"If Luan and the others will not support you, what good will taking Caemlyn do?" Sylvase, Nasin's grandaughter and heri, spoke so seldom that the question came as a shock. Sturdy, and not quite pretty, she usually had a vapid gaze, but her blue eyes appeared quite sharp at the moment. Everyone stared at her. That seemed not to faze her a bit. She toyed with a wine cup, but Arymilla thought it no more than her second.

 

[the scene goes on for bit, Arymilla dismissed her, and Nasin agrees, and then...]

 

"As you say, Grandfather," Sylvase murmured, inclining her head briefly. When she straightened, her gaze was as insipid as ever. The sharpness must have been a trick of the light, of course.

Vapid. Sturdy. Not bright. Yet both Arymilla and Elenia are unnerved by small displays of will. But now consider Elayne’s description of her, and how it differs.

 

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognized. A single enameled brooch, a red star and silver sword on glittering black, appeared to be her only jewelry. But why was Sylvase Caeren being brought to her? A pretty woman with  alert blue eyes that held steady on Elayne's face, she was Lord Nasin's heir, not the High Seat of Caeren.

 

Pretty. Sharp blue eyes. Intelligent.

 

So clearly Sylvase has hidden her intelligence from  Arymilla and Elenia, and even though they see signs of it, they dismiss it. Because they dismiss her. The odd note is that Elayne describes Sylvase as pretty, whilst Elenia and Arymilla call her sturdy and ‘not quite pretty’. So, either Elayne is more generous than they are—or they are being dismissive, which they have a precedent for doing about Sylvase.

In the end though we have Sylvase who is short, with silvery blond hair, and blue eyes—who is described to show no emotions, and to be cold and hard. Arymilla and Elenia describe her as ‘not quite pretty’, but Elayne disagrees. Elenia and Arymilla also describe her as stupid, and vapid—which she is not. Then we have Cyndane—also short, with silver blond hair and sharp blue eyes and a cold demeanor. She, however, is described by Graendal as very pretty and doll-like.

 

Circumstance

 

Consider the roll Caraen plays in supporting Arymilla. They are the only house to whole heartedly do so, and the first house to support Arymilla. It is with their support that Arymilla is able to assert her claim.  Sylvase is present in this from the beginning—supposedly a hostage, though Nasin in truth is acting to support Arymilla because he thinks she is his daughter. Consider, though, the reality of that—it drives the most powerful westland nation into civil war. A move in which Sylvase’s house is the core, acting under an utterly delusional belief. Yes—I’m suggesting compulsion.

 

Then, when Arymilla is caught by Elayne, Nasin conveniently suffers a seizure, allowing Sylvase to step forward, placing her again near the heart of power in Andor.  And it is very convenient—almost as convenient for Elayne as Nasin’s absurd beliefs about Arymilla were convenient for Arymilla.

 

The Long Shot

 

One other issue is significant here, raised in this quote

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognized.

 

It’s not really significant, I only raise it because of the old theory that Cyndane’s body once belonged to Cabriana Mecandes. The descriptions match, as do the timelines, and the loss of the agelessness would explain why Elayne thought she recognized Sylvase, despite later saying she knew little about her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Actually I like this, because Cabriana was of an age of Anaiya, who's not that much older than Moiraine, based on New Spring.

 

With the removal of the Ageless look, and the effects of Slowing, Cabriana at, say, 50-60 really would look 5 to 10 years older than Elayne. Moreover, without the Ageless look, she'd be familiar but not instantly recognizable to Elayne, or indeed, the Sisters with her.

 

Furthermore, we know that Semi never uses simple brute force torture anymore. Her pleasures are far too expanded and advanced for that, so Cabriana's body would be untouched.

[Mashiara Sedai]

I seriously had never heard of this theory.  Or even that Cyndane has Cabriana's body.  *hangs head in shame* I thought I was up to date on all the theories out there.

 

First, I thought that Elenia dismissed her because that's what noblewomen do.  They see someone who might come into power and say she looks stupid and say she looks ugly.  I think we've seen a number of nobles behave in that same fashion.  I've always just assumed that Sylvase was just playing the part as well, keeping to the background.

 

If it's true, what is Cyndane after?  Just trying to get close to the power in Andor?  Are they still trying to cause chaos?

 

I'm not sure I can believe this one, but you make some very good points on it.

 

~Mashi

[Luckers]

I'm not sure I believe it either--but yes they are trying to cause chaos. Carean was instrumental to the civil war in Andor. Without that house Arymilla would never have been able to make a claim to the throne. The second Elayne defeated Arymilla so suddenly, Cyndane would do the best thing she could--ensure she is close to Elayne.

 

The fun side of this theory is--what happens if Sylvase learns Elayne is pregnant to Rand?

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

can someone try and tell me where the description of sylvase is i looked thru kod but i cant find it i want to compare it to descriptions of cyndane and cabriana to see if there is similarity in wording. thanks.

 

EDIT: I dont really agree with this theory, but id like to look into it anyway. I posted on another thread a couple of days ago that i think Moggy and Cyndane are too busy running around for Moridin to be setting up shop anywhere. I think he keeps them busy so they dont have time to try to grab any power themselves.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I discount this one.

 

Look at Sylvase' situation.  Trapped in the orbit of an overbearing lech.  For self-preservation she'd have to make herself appear as vapid and unattractive as possible.

 

Now that her dear, sweet uncle isn't around to be a problem anymore, she can emerge as who she really is.

[ErikTheBald]

Sylvase hair color is never referred to in the text so we don't know that she has Cyndane's silvery hair.  The other thing is that it's always mentioned when describing Cyndane is that she has "Huge tracts of Land"  to quote Monty Python.  From the point of view of a condescending noble woman, this should have been mentioned from Elenia's POV when she is thinking about or referring to Sylvase.  Never happens.

 

Descriptions from the Encyclopedia WOT

 

Cabriana Mecandes: She has pale eyes and long golden hair almost to her waist. There is a fierce directness in her gaze. (NS,Ch12) She has pale hair and skin and blue eyes. (LoC,Ch6) 

 

Cyndane - She is a short young woman with long silver hair, vivid blue eyes and an impressive bosom. She holds herself very straight striving for height. (TPoD,Ch12) She has a low, breathy voice. (WH,Ch13)

 

Lady Sylvase of House Caeren

She is sturdy and placid. (CoT,Ch15) She is sturdy and not quite pretty with blue eyes. She usually has a vapid gaze. (KoD,Ch17)

 

Not seeing more than a superficial similarity between these women.  However, as illusion works best when you sdtay close, a superficial resemblance would be all that was needed for an inverted illusion weave.

 

Additionally, I will admit that Sylavse' grandfather's seizure was awfully convenient, so I'm certainly keeping an open mind that Sylvase is possibly Cyndane in disguise.

 

Maybe she goes nuts when she finds out Elayne's babies are Rands as well and uses the razor weave she used to slice off that random DF's head (WH ch 35) on Elayne and gets one of her hands instead.  Then Cyndane is captured and tortured.  Severed hand and red hot poker.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Something that gets overlooked when it comes to Cyndane.  The silver hair.

 

Amys is the only other character described as having silver hair.  She also has blue eyes.  As detailed elsewhere, I believe she is Moggy's spy among the Aiel.  If Moggy had been forced to sacrifice her to provide a body for Lanfear to transmigrate into, that might explain some of the increased tension between the two of them.

 

Plus we haven't seen anything of Amys in several books.

 

Not sure whether I want Cyndane to be her or Cabriana.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

If erikthebald is right and they never say anything about sylvase's hair color then that seals it for me. i just cant see this. RJ would have given us more of a clue; a subtle clue, yes, but more of one than there's been so far.

 

nonetheless it is still possible, however unlikely, so everyone can think what they want.