The Dark One winning impossible?

[bmunge]

I think it is; at least in the obvious way.

 

The Dark One seems to be an immortal being. The turnings of the Wheel are also infinite. This battle is replayed with each turning. From the perspective of an immortal being, the Dark One should have no concerns whatsoever about whether or not he wins this time. If his victory is possible, then eventually over time he will be successful. Rand's battle this time around would be relatively irrelevant.

 

Personally, I think the outcome of the Dark One winning is impossible. I think that the Pattern will not allow it. The pattern produces a Dragon, demands a Dragon. It also produces Ta'veren to also fight the war on the Shadow. The Pattern balances this out, in order to prevent the possibility of the DO ever winning.

[Ahaz Flagg]

Not sure it would be impossible, but we do know it is impossible during this series.  We know this because of all the 4th age quotes.  I really would like the great lord to win, but alas it is not to be.  All of the players on the light side are maggots!!

[Nightstrike]

Personally, I think the outcome of the Dark One winning is impossible. I think that the Pattern will not allow it. The pattern produces a Dragon, demands a Dragon. It also produces Ta'veren to also fight the war on the Shadow. The Pattern balances this out, in order to prevent the possibility of the DO ever winning.

RJ said that there is an ordinary afterlife, apart from TAR. He also said "unless the Dark One wins", in which case everybody should kick over the table. Or something like that. Which makes me think that the Dark One will win eventually. But, since RJ also said that there wasn't anything special with this turning, then the DO can't win this time. RJ also planned to write stories about Mat & Tuon after the Last Battle.

[Dark Justice]

Well, Im pretty sure this age will end with victory to the "team Creator".

However; one thing the DO has enough of is time. So even if he doesnt win THIS time, doesnt mean he never will..

[mb]

To me, 'improbable' would be more accurate than 'impossible'.

Some reasons::

-the good guys generally win in any fiction

-the Dark One's capabilities while still bound could be considered powerful  (weather across at least the continent if not the world, the miasma, able to resurrect the Forsaken, able to shift corridors and possibly alter paintings, make dead people appear)

 

[Blackhoof]

I think the point of their being a "Last Battle" is that this is the Last Battle, the last one. Unless im completely mistaken, the DO will either win or the bore will be sealed completely up again. The End.

[Nightstrike]

I think the point of their being a "Last Battle" is that this is the Last Battle, the last one. Unless im completely mistaken, the DO will either win or the bore will be sealed completely up again. The End.

There has been lots of "last battles" before. They didn't mean the end of the Wheel of Time. If the DO was about to win, then RJ couldn't have planned books about Mat and Tuon.

 

Most likely, this last battle (much like the ones before) will result in the bore being unmade. No more bore, but in another Age it will be drilled again.

 

 

[Hallow]

See here's what I don't understand. The Dark one wasn't to far of winning in the AoL, but he was thwarted with the surprise attack of the hundred companions, how does this stay a surprise attack the (insert random number here)'th time he's gone through it, I mean, does he never learn?

[Nightstrike]

I'm not sure if every Age has got to be the same length as it was the previous turning. And there are variations between turnings. So maybe it was a surprise that the attack came right at that moment in time. The DO may need the Dragon for the ultimate victory, but RJ said that there are degrees of victory. Tainting saidin was a small victory, I believe. The War of the Shadow must have meant other small victories for the DO. Maybe he was prepared that an attack could come? So maybe he was prepared, without knowing for certain? That's what I would guess... :-\

[albino_dog]

It is impossible. Of that I have no doubt in my mind.

 

WoT, isn't a series that would end with the DO winning.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the point of their being a "Last Battle" is that this is the Last Battle, the last one. Unless im completely mistaken, the DO will either win or the bore will be sealed completely up again. The End.

 

Thats how I always thought of it, it will be the end of the Dark One for the rest of this turning of the Wheel, but not necessarily the start of a new turning.

 

And maybe after TG is over, it will be the beginning of the world forgetting about the Dark One. In time, when the Wheel is in its next cycle, Lanfears next equivalent will start looking for a power source usable by both genders again, "discover" the True Power again and thus enable the Dark One to start anew. In the next Age of Legends.

[Blackhoof]

If that is the case then I feel sorry for the DO.

 

Forsaken: Master! The Dragon Reborn is about to reseal the bore once and for all! Again!

DO: Well, i've lost this time, again, but i'm positive that in another few million years, the 700,893,163,892'nd Last Battle will occur, and I will win!This time.

Forsaken: Really?

DO: No, probably not, but there wouldn't be a series if I won, would there?

[OptimusPrime]

If that is the case then I feel sorry for the DO.

 

Forsaken: Master! The Dragon Reborn is about to reseal the bore once and for all! Again!

DO: Well, i've lost this time, again, but i'm positive that in another few million years, the 700,893,163,892'nd Last Battle will occur, and I will win!This time.

Forsaken: Really?

DO: No, probably not, but there wouldn't be a series if I won, would there?

 

Forsaken: Or maybe there just wouldnt be a point in writing the series about the time where we won at the end.

[bmunge]

I think my post may have been misinterpreted. I wasn't specific referring to this turning of the Wheel, but of all of them. It is possible for the DO to ever win? I don't think it is.

 

The reason I say this is that if there is even the slightest chance of victory, the Dark One wins. He's an immortal being so the concepts of time and waiting are different for him. From the Dark One's perspective, any possibility automatically becomes an eventuality.

[Mablir Dorlig]

I think my post may have been misinterpreted. I wasn't specific referring to this turning of the Wheel, but of all of them. It is possible for the DO to ever win? I don't think it is.

 

The reason I say this is that if there is even the slightest chance of victory, the Dark One wins. He's an immortal being so the concepts of time and waiting are different for him. From the Dark One's perspective, any possibility automatically becomes an eventuality.

 

But it is a battle between the Dark One and the Creator (The Dragon being an avatar of the Creator) and neither can be destroyed -we could be looking at a scenario as in the Covenant books where the two cannot interact directly with the OP the equivalent of Wild Magic.

 

Alternatively should the DO win then it could be the creator imprisoned in the Bore awaiting the Dragon being Reborn again to free him

[Mr. Micawber]

If that is the case then I feel sorry for the DO.

 

Forsaken: Master! The Dragon Reborn is about to reseal the bore once and for all! Again!

DO: Well, i've lost this time, again, but i'm positive that in another few million years, the 700,893,163,892'nd Last Battle will occur, and I will win!This time.

Forsaken: Really?

DO: No, probably not, but there wouldn't be a series if I won, would there?

 

Forsaken: Or maybe there just wouldnt be a point in writing the series about the time where we won at the end.

 

Fellas, just look at what the Big Guy wants. He desires the end of existence, of everything. It's like he's the God of Nihilism.

 

Nihilism. Burn me, don't feel sorry for him! I mean, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos.

[mb]

Is it possible for the Dark One to ever win?

It might depend on what you consider winning.

Given the Dark One's capabilities when still bound, I would consider it possible for him to win.

 

Still existing could be considered a form of winning.

 

Though if winning is destroying the Light side, then it likely is not possible since the Creator cannot be destroyed.

 

[Blackhoof]

The DO doesn't want to destroy time; he wants to change it to his own personal wonderland of horror and death.

[OptimusPrime]

If that is the case then I feel sorry for the DO.

 

Forsaken: Master! The Dragon Reborn is about to reseal the bore once and for all! Again!

DO: Well, i've lost this time, again, but i'm positive that in another few million years, the 700,893,163,892'nd Last Battle will occur, and I will win!This time.

Forsaken: Really?

DO: No, probably not, but there wouldn't be a series if I won, would there?

 

Forsaken: Or maybe there just wouldnt be a point in writing the series about the time where we won at the end.

 

Fellas, just look at what the Big Guy wants. He desires the end of existence, of everything. It's like he's the God of Nihilism.

 

Nihilism. Burn me, don't feel sorry for him! I mean, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos.

 

Who said anything about feeling sorry for him? Im just saying I think it is possible for the Dark One to win the war but its obvious it wont be this time. Plus, not that I do feel sorry for him, but saying "dont feel sorry for him because hes a nihilist" sounds like "dont like him because hes a bad guy."

 

The DO doesn't want to destroy time; he wants to change it to his own personal wonderland of horror and death.

 

2nded

[Blackhoof]

Of course, the population will wish that time had ended when the DO remakes the pattern. BTW, does it strike anyone else how stupid most Darkfriends are; they join because they are promised power and lordship of the world; but do they think that the DO will really give every single DF his own little slice of humanity? Do they ALL expect to rule the world? Idiots.

[Dunderdan]

Personally, Ive been toying around with an alternative idea. Its either like you said that its impossible for the DO to win. OR rather, which I prefer, its impossible for him to destroy the WoT. The difference being that he may win "the last battle" but he'll fail in his attempt to destroy the world, causing an event similar to what LLT caused when going mad. And I like the idea that possibly, as a side effect, his actions accidentally trap him.

 

Im very fond of this idea. And Ive attached it to another of my bothers; namely the notion that there is a "first age" when I believe theres been many ages before that. Why would it be called the first age if there's an age prior to it? Well, Ive decided to believe that something happened in the "age -1" that wiped the mankind memories of what happened prior to the so called "first age". I like the idea that possibly, what happened was, that the DO won but inevitably failed in trying to destroy the WoT and instead found himself being trapped in his current prison.

 

Id also like to add that in my opinion, it would diminish the WOT series if there was a definite end in the last book. Come on. RJ has built up this fantastic concept of an ever turning wheel, spinning through the ages. If it stops itll revert into "a wheel that turned a fair distance". Not as impressive if you ask me.

 

[Mr. Micawber]

Optimus, he wants to kill the Great Serpent and break the Wheel.

 

That implies he wants to destroy time and - considering that he's already breaking down matter - he probably wants to destroy space as well.

[OptimusPrime]

Of course, the population will wish that time had ended when the DO remakes the pattern. BTW, does it strike anyone else how stupid most Darkfriends are; they join because they are promised power and lordship of the world; but do they think that the DO will really give every single DF his own little slice of humanity? Do they ALL expect to rule the world? Idiots.

 

No, every one of them believes there are only so many high spots up for grabs, which is why every single one of them, including the Chosen, only thinks for themself. This is how the Dark One feels that he gets the strongest candidates closer to the spot (whether or not it exists) and he enjoys watching them compete. He tells them only the strongest will rule. To quote Bonecrusher, "survival of the fittest" seems to fit Dark Ones sales pitch quite well. The fact that the Dark One sets them against each other in this way becomes the route of all his problems. He does it because he feels that he is left with the strongest; but, inadvertently, he has made the ones who reached so high via the methods we expect of them-betrayal, deception, manipulation, etc-they all became so set in these ways that they virtually cannot work with each other effectively. So Id say if anything its the Dark Ones mistake. Who knows, RJ said he isnt human so doesnt think like one; maybe he thinks he will never break free so just ammuses himself by causing pain and terror.

 

Optimus, he wants to kill the Great Serpent and break the Wheel.

 

That implies he wants to destroy time and - considering that he's already breaking down matter - he probably wants to destroy space as well.

 

Oh dear, better not like the character then.

[Mr. Micawber]

Hehe, Optimus, have you ever seen the movie The Big Lebowski?

 

Because my little thing up there was essentially a quote adjusted for the WoT.

:P

 

Personally I find the Big Guy far more cool than nearly any villain I've ever seen. Because his mission is to destroy everything. I don't frankly think any mission other than that one deserves the attention of Absolutely Evil Elder God.

[Mablir Dorlig]

Optimus, he wants to kill the Great Serpent and break the Wheel.

 

That implies he wants to destroy time and - considering that he's already breaking down matter - he probably wants to destroy space as well.

 

By destroying the serpent (normally eating its' own tail) the DO would destroy time and so stand outside time and win

 

The way that the DO wins is by destroying the continuity of the age lace and removing time as a factor