Balefire as a solution

[NetSlider]

Good day all,

 

I'm a big fan of the WoT and always check the forum but now decided to join in an active discussion(s). Anyway, away with a quick introduction and to my point.

 

Here is my question (and I imagine someone already addressed it, but nonetheless here it comes  ;D), if balefire destroys the pattern and Lanfear is the one who freed the DO in the first place, can't it be assumed that one of the ways to win the LB is to use a lot of balefire to burn her out of the pattern. It would fit with Rand's unacceptability to kill women (to kill Lanfear would be very hard for him to accept, afterall he could have done it already), plus what if a choice presents itself to save Moraine by killing the forsaken (second chance?). Sure a LOT of the world would change, but for better or worse is up in the air. And such a drastic change to reality would fit with the seafolk's prophecy of the reality changing and Aiel's believe that they will awaken from a dream.

 

Anyhow, just a thought.

[OptimusPrime]

Every action she had done since then would also have never happened, and the effects of those actions would be undone, resulting in drastic corrections in the Pattern. It would disrupt the Pattern I reckon

[NetSlider]

I know, but it seems one of the very logical and simple solutions to the whole ordeal. By taking her out, there would be no forsaken, no trollocs, no wars. The question of course is whether or not main characters would be even born but than they are born and therefore their ancestors survived and so it is logical to think that the only difference would be that there would be a lot of "new" people appearing out of nowhere.

[matrulz]

would anyone even with sa'angreal be powerful enough to remove her from 3000 years of the pattern? maybe with the largest circle possible and everyone with angreal/sa'...but i think it unlikely given what we've seen about others who have been balefired

 

still i like the idea, they should get a circle and try it on semihirge(sp?) just to see what happens...at the very least rand might get his arm back ;)

[Aagaard]

From my impression of the Rahvin death, where Rand balefired the hell out of him, his actions were only brought back a couple of hours... Or maybe some days, but not more (Else why would the trollocs still be there).

 

therefore I highly doubt that a circle or even the CK's would be able to do anything but turning lanfears action a couple of years back....

 

But I'm all in favour of an attempt on Semi to see if I'm right. Or maybe an attempt on Moridin, since probably a lot of the things happening in Randland seems to have him as the puppeteer...

 

It rises the question though, if the other Forsaken wouldn't still be able to remember and just bore a new hole, or if they now suddenly haven't sworn to the dark one and are all good persons.

 

Seems to be a little simple ending a series of a complex mythology going on for 20 years with such a stroke.

[Nightstrike]

The consequences of using Balefire are too dire. Even the Forsaken (most of them, or at least most of the time) do not use it. It's probably for good reasons. Paradoxes causes the Weave to unravel...

 

 

 

[ROB_88]

yes, i'm with Nightstrike on this. it would cause everything to rip apart.

 

it's not as easy as just erasing her actions, the pattern will be picked apart as if .

the best way to describe it would be if you are sewing a piece of clothing and you see that a thread is wrong from the beginning, it doesn't just dissapear and everything adapts accordingly.

you would have rip up that thread and every other thread that has been added to it, thereby completely destroying everything, and leaving all that work as just an ugly pile on the floor.

 

the same thing would happen if Balefire is overused too much

[Muad Cheade]

Didn't Lanfear (as Selene) save Rand's life in TGH? If she was balefired, Rand quite possibly may die.

 

Regardless, balefire of that magnitude would most likely tear the pattern apart.

[Thorn]

The problem is that even if it were possible to channel that much Balefire, and even if Rand figured out Cyndane == Lanfear and hit her with it,

 

1) other people were involved in drilling the Bore besides Mierin, so it might happen anyway, and

 

2) undoing it would undo the entire basis of the pattern over the past three-thousand-plus years, which would probably unravel the whole thing -- thus achieving the Dark One's goal anyway.

 

 

[Luckers]

That much balefire would unravel the Pattern.

[OptimusPrime]

I know, but it seems one of the very logical and simple solutions to the whole ordeal. By taking her out, there would be no forsaken, no trollocs, no wars. The question of course is whether or not main characters would be even born but than they are born and therefore their ancestors survived and so it is logical to think that the only difference would be that there would be a lot of "new" people appearing out of nowhere.

 

Then you would be the one whod destroyed the Pattern, the only thing marking you apart from the Forsaken being your reason for doing it. You would destroy the world to stop the Shadow from doing so.

[Ticondrius]

An interesting, if severely flawed idea.  It takes a fair bit of perspective work to comprehend what a time paradox even is, let alone imagine what a specific one would seem like.

 

Having Lanfear Balefired™ would do exactly what's been said here, undo over 3000 years of history.  Let's start with the creation of the Bore...

 

Bore never opened...AoL contiues on uninterrupted...LTT lives life feeling sortof unfulfilled...Breaking never occurs...Male Aes Sedai never go insane...Aiel remain Dai'shain, and never go to the Three-fold Land (it doesn't exist)...Ishmael is never partially sealed...Trolloc wars never happen...

 

After that, things get truly bewildering.  It's likely most of the people alive in Randland would cease to exist, or be replaced by other people who would have existed instead.  The Forsaken would have never been.

 

Who knows, perhaps the Pattern demanded the Bore.  If Mierin hadn't bored into the DO's prison, I'm fairly sure someone would have, if not then, then later.

 

As for Balefire as a general solution, a second burned out here and there might be ok, maybe even a few minutes to an hour like Rand did to Rahvin, but more time than that, or more people than that....*shudder*.

 

Time is a hard concept to grasp.  I hope this little bit helped someone.  As for me, if it was real, I'd be terrified to the marrow of Balefire..and I mean of any use, not simply on me.

[NetSlider]

Sure enough the patern would be torn but isn't it what must happen for the new age to come. Another thought, Rand is taverin and is central to the patern. What if, and this is really, really outthere, instead of "burning" Lanfear out he would, somehow, replace her with...Lews Therin. Dont ask me how, I dont know just as no one really knew how he was going to clean seidin. But it would be a fair way for Kinslayer to repay his debt to the world. Afterall, it is not very clear if LT died completly at the end of the last age or was his thread, for the lack of a better word, in a "Limbo"? Maybe it is long enough to replace Lanfear (that is if the physics of the weave would permit it). Just a thought :)

[Hallow]

Imagine making the largest cirlce possible (Both men an women several times over) with all the most powerful channelers in existence (Both from the shadow and the light) with everyone possesing an above average strong angreal and Callandor, Both Choeden Kal and that Tar Valon Sa'Angreal involved. I reckon you could balefire as far back as you wanted with all that firepower. Obviously it would destroy the pattern and end all existence but that's not the point  :P

[Luckers]

Sure enough the patern would be torn but isn't it what must happen for the new age to come.

 

No, the pattern unravelling is bad. It's the end of existence.

[bmunge]

Even if it was possible to produce balefire strong enough to erase Lanfear's actions for the last 3000 years, such an outcome would have damaging effects on the pattern. Who knows, it might even destroy every character currently in the story. It'd be a pretty bad idea.

 

If they had a circle strong enough to produce such a devastating balefire, you'd think they'd use it to reseal the prison.

[Alternate34]

First, in the AoL, both sides stopped using balefire once they realized the damage it was doing to the Pattern.  Destroying such an important thread would probably destroy the Pattern.  No one wants that.

 

Second, there is probably not enough power to make that happen even with a full circle chock full of sa'angreal and angreal.

 

Third, Mierin was not the only one drilling the bore as mentioned before.  Specifically, Beidomon was helping so the Bore comes anyway.

 

Fourth, Mierin was LTT's lover before Ilyena.  What happens to LTT without that original influence?  His personality changes drastically and he is one of the strongest ta'veren in history.  Ta'veren pull threads to them, but that pull would have no pull back now from Mierin/Lanfear.  This itself would probably unravel the Pattern.

[Beren]

As I was re-reading the series I noted that Rand pulled all of Saidin that he could hold with his Angreal in his used of balefire in Caemlyn and it only erased about 30 minutes or less from the pattern. This makes me think that balefire is not going to be the solution, or at least not the biggest part of it.