The Gholam?

[Sharaman]

I'll also add that when I was talking to Brandon, I was trying to figure out if the Seanchan now had the ability to make cuendillar.  Which, on the whole I think to be a much bigger plot point than whether the bracelets are cuendillar.  And he wouldn't tell me. :P

Surely Semirhage wouldn't have shared the technology with everyone.

Another thing, she had access to male channelers to experiment with, since she knew exactly what the Dom Band could do.

The Band was invented after the Breaking so she wouldn't have come across in the AoL.

For that matter, Moghedien seemed to know a fair amount about it.

Where and who did they work with?

Surely no Saidin-channeling Chosen would trust them that much.

Could this actually be the BUT since it first comes up in Book IV?

 

Moghedien read about it, not sure about Semirhage, it seems likely to me that she visited the Black Tower and borrowed up an Asha'man.

Not clear from Moggy's conversation whether she's only read about it but likely since as far as we know, the set in the Tanchico Palace was the only set available and she hadn't take that.

 

About Semi, yes, the BT would be the obvious source for Saidin channelers.

But it's something we're inferring rather than explicit.

Could be somewhere else with male channelers (Shara?),

Could also be BT in which case, we have Moridin, Semi and Demandred having connected at some stage with the BT.

If it's true, it adds another element of mystery, in terms of connect.

 

Semirhage did seem to have experimental experience,

She knew exactly what could be done/ not done (apart from the TP) with the Domination Band.

Just trying to work out timelines

Somewhere between TSR and WH, Suroth acquires the Domination Band from Egeanin,

WH, Semirhage arrives with the Rhyagelle in Tuon's entourage.

In KoD, Semirhage is captured

Between WH and KoD, Semi gets the bands copied and learns how to use them.

Ok, the timelines work, since Anath often goes into "retreat" and disappears.

 

[FarShainMael]

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-2645.html

 

Muirenn

1. The bruises on Min's neck were not an error. After consulting with Team Jordan, it was determined that indirect effects remain. Rand was the one who strangled Min, not Semirhage directly, so the bruises stayed.

 

2. Brandon knows of two ways to destroy cuendillar. But he would not confirm if the Domination Band that Rand was wearing was made from cuendillar. He said it was not relevant to what happened.

 

3. The bracelets did not disappear when Semirhage and Elza were balefired because they were not considered to be intrinsic to their person. It would be the same if someone was holding a book and was balefired, the book would drop to the floor.

 

Rand used the TP to kill Semirhage(and Elza).

 

Rand raised a hand and, filled with the power he did not understand, wove a single weave.  A bar of pure white light, a cleansing fire, burst from his hand and struck Semirhage in the chest.  She flashed and vanished, leaving a faint afterimage to Rand's vision.  Her bracelet dropped to the floor.

 

See above-it's unknown whether it was cuendillar or not, and it wasn't destroyed because the bracelets weren't intrinsically connected.

 

It has occurred to me that the question of 'intrinsic connection' is dependent on the thoughts of the person weaving the balefire. Who may see the whole peson as a single entity including clothes and jewellery - normally.

 

Consider Rand's likely state of mind at this point. (And once you've got over your headache..) He's just been used to try to murder his love. He's freed himself from the DB using a force which he doesn't understand but which terrifies LTT. He wants to get rid of the immediate threat to him (Semi and Elza) permanently, he doesn't want that to happen to him ever again. But he may also be thinking at some level 'how the f*** did she get hold of the DB, I'm going to confront Caddy with these bracelets and watch her reaction'. Which he goes on to do - having saved the bracelets for that purpose.

 

Just a thought..

[Aquarius]

... sooooo.... how do we get rid of the gholam ? :p

[FarShainMael]

Balefire the nasty thing, of course  ;)

 

Or put a DB on it.

 

Or trap it in a box made of cuendillar.

 

Wotever.

 

[myn0s]

I say have Mat beat it to death with his medallion  ;D

[Dreamwalker]

I say have Mat beat it to death with his medallion  ;D

This way would be the coolest/most entertaining to read, IMO. And also fairly likely. I just want to see Mat kick its butt somehow, whether by beating the crap out of it or by blowing it to kingdom come, and I think that's probably what's going to happen just because it would make darn good reading.  :D

[FarShainMael]

I believe it's been suggested somewhere that the gholam may be sensitive to silver - assuming that's what the medallion's made of - instead of to some intrinsic Power-related property it has. In which case, Aludra could make some silver arrowheads for Birgitte to use on it. (What happened to that silver arrow, BTW?)

[draconian]

... sooooo.... how do we get rid of the gholam ? :p

deathgates  would be a  way cool to kill them

[bronnt]

I say have Mat beat it to death with his medallion  ;D

This way would be the coolest/most entertaining to read, IMO. And also fairly likely. I just want to see Mat kick its butt somehow, whether by beating the crap out of it or by blowing it to kingdom come, and I think that's probably what's going to happen just because it would make darn good reading.   :D

 

Mat beating the heck out of it with his medallion would probably work, but it's also really problematic, obviously.  The gholam is twice as fast as Mat, and it's clear than a single blow or two won't kill it, so if the thing gets hurt, it can just run away and dive into a rat-hole before Mat ever has a chance to finish it off.  I do think it would be a good read to have this showdown, I'm just not certain I would buy the outcome.

 

The gholam is an apparently intrinsic One Power problem, since it was made with the Power to be immune to the Power, so it seems to pose a riddle.  In addition, it has no bones and no solid form, so swords and most typical weapons don't hurt it.  Mat's medallion is made with the Power in a similar method, and the similarity is what hurts the gholam when they contact, so you're left pondering the mysteries of the OP.

 

That's why my preferred method is to sidestep the whole conundrum and use explosives on the thing.  Rather being caught up in the technology of the previous age (the OP), Mat is forced to come up with a new technology.  We've already seen Aludra fashion a crude form of grenades, and we know that artillery is on the way.  Hitting the thing with a cannon might be problematic as well, but I'd love it if the answer was to blow the damn thing up with gunpowder rather than playing around with the apparent riddle.  From a writing perspective, any way of killing the gholam with the OP involves inventing or explaining a mechanic that the readers don't currently understand, but we all do understand the ramifications of black powder.

[mb]

I say have Mat beat it to death with his medallion  ;D

Mat had used the medallion against the gholam at least a couple of times.  The gholam managed to get away both times.

I think somehow trap the gholam at one location before the medallion is used.

 

That's why my preferred method is to sidestep the whole conundrum and use explosives on the thing.

I imagine a massive amount of explosives would be required.  And they may need to explode near enough to the gholam in order to work; probably all at the same time.  Also, it would need to be achieved on the first attempt since the gholam could escape and since there would be limited material left.

The medallion would probably be easier than all that.

 

[Dida]

The topic was the golham and how to get rid of it, wasn't it ?

 

One Hypothesis on how to kill or stop a Gholam:

 

If a Gholam requires oxygen or some other gas to breath to survive, why not just freeze the air surrounding a given Gholam, immobilizing it with an indirect weave, then pump in an different gas to cause suffocation in the Gholam in question?

 

 If suffocation does not kill a Gholam, at worst it should cause a Gholam to go into a type of Dormancy whether Hibernation or Cryptobiosis, right?  

 

 If a Gholam went into a forced Hibernation, Mat or Nynaeve should be able to fry the thing with their Ter'angreal which dissolve weaves of the power which come too close in distance to it.

[Durinax]

why not create a deep pit wiht the power, put an illusion overtop of it and lure it to run into the pit then proceed to cover the pit with earth, Gholam trapped in a underground cavern

[Dida]

 

  Unfortunately, R.J. omit specifically how the Chosen control the Gholam. Was a type of Binder used during part of their creation?  

 

 

I recently found a strong suggestion that Gholam are indeed controlled by a binder, in a Robert Jordan Q&A in Budapest, April 2003:

 

Q:  Are gholam immortal?

 

RJ:  No.

 

Q:  Because they were in…a box?

 

RJ:  Stasis box.  A stasis box is an artifact of the Age of Legends, and is in effect an artificial vacuole.  Time does not move inside a stasis box.  It is a thing devised for storing things that are fragile or that might decay in some way.

 

Q:  So the gholam can die by a natural death?

 

RJ:  I don’t know if you’d call it a natural death, but yeah, they can decay.  You saw what happened with Mat’s medallion – it just fell on the gholam’s cheek and branded it.

 

Q:  But do they die of old age?

 

RJ:  Yeah, they do, but they live a little longer than you’d like them to, let me tell you (laughter) – not as long as an Aes Sedai, but...not as long as an Aes Sedai that hasn’t sworn the Three Oaths, anyway…not as long as a strong Aes Sedai that hasn’t sworn the Three Oaths.

 

Q:  Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

 

RJ:  No…now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder.  It was used on criminals.  If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance.  One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.

 

 A Gholam's lifespan is shorter than an Age of Legends Aes Sedai, because it like Aes Sedai in the current White Tower are subject to Oath(s) on a binder (directly implied).

 

 Robert Jordan also uses the phrase, "with a binder, someone who could channel could be contrained", which implies that Gholam are subject to a binding of oaths contraining it. Not the Compulsion weaves in TAR, possibility.

 

 So the contraint on a Gholam is an Oath on a binder to obey a Chosen, but if a Gholam orders conflict it does not die. A Gholam gets to pick who to kill first is seems.

 

 

 In the case of the Gholam after Mat, does any other Chosen even know this male Gholam is alive after Sammael was killed?

[bronnt]

I recently found a strong suggestion that Gholam are indeed controlled by a binder, in a Robert Jordan Q&A in Budapest, April 2003:

 

Q:  Are gholam immortal?

 

RJ:  No.

 

Q:  Because they were in…a box?

 

RJ:  Stasis box.  A stasis box is an artifact of the Age of Legends, and is in effect an artificial vacuole.  Time does not move inside a stasis box.  It is a thing devised for storing things that are fragile or that might decay in some way.

 

Q:  So the gholam can die by a natural death?

 

RJ:  I don’t know if you’d call it a natural death, but yeah, they can decay.  You saw what happened with Mat’s medallion – it just fell on the gholam’s cheek and branded it.

 

Q:  But do they die of old age?

 

RJ:  Yeah, they do, but they live a little longer than you’d like them to, let me tell you (laughter) – not as long as an Aes Sedai, but...not as long as an Aes Sedai that hasn’t sworn the Three Oaths, anyway…not as long as a strong Aes Sedai that hasn’t sworn the Three Oaths.

 

Q:  Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

 

RJ:  No…now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder.  It was used on criminals.  If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance.  One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.

 

 A Gholam's lifespan is shorter than an Age of Legends Aes Sedai, because it like Aes Sedai in the current White Tower are subject to Oath(s) on a binder (directly implied).

 

 Robert Jordan also uses the phrase, "with a binder, someone who could channel could be contrained", which implies that Gholam are subject to a binding of oaths contraining it. Not the Compulsion weaves in TAR, possibility.

 

 So the contraint on a Gholam is an Oath on a binder to obey a Chosen, but if a Gholam orders conflict it does not die. A Gholam gets to pick who to kill first is seems.

 

 

 In the case of the Gholam after Mat, does any other Chosen even know this male Gholam is alive after Sammael was killed?

 

That evidence is so weak that it's not even evidence at all.  Just because he's comparing the life-span of a gholam to that of modern-day Aes Sedai doesn't mean that it's held by a binder.

 

And the truth is, binders shouldn't work on anyone who can't channel.  That's why, when Siuan and Leane are stilled, the 3 Oaths no longer hold them.  If the 3 Oaths did work on those who couldn't channel, why else would they have shattered when they were stilled?

 

Gholam can't be held by a binder.

[FarShainMael]

A gholam requires nourishment, and drinks blood to get it. Perhaps poison of some sort could work. Blood from the Dragon's paired unhealed wounds, perhaps?

 

[Sharaman]

Hinderstap blood - that's the prescription.

 

[Awakened]

... sooooo.... how do we get rid of the gholam ? :p

deathgates  would be a  way cool to kill them

 

But it would have made them less of a threat during the War of Power. The scary thing about them is that Aes Seadi are mostly helpless against them. My guess is the gate would shatter the moment it touched a gholam.

 

[Knobs Mahoney]

The open part of the gate holds no weaves, it is just the corners that do.

[bronnt]

... sooooo.... how do we get rid of the gholam ? :p

deathgates  would be a  way cool to kill them

 

But it would have made them less of a threat during the War of Power. The scary thing about them is that Aes Seadi are mostly helpless against them. My guess is the gate would shatter the moment it touched a gholam.

 

 

There's a ton of debate on this, but the truth is that Mat was able to walk through a gateway while the medallion was touching his skin, so it probably wouldn't shatter the weave.  Mat does this several times.

 

Now, if the gholam touched the edge of Gate, where the weaves were being maintained, that would probably collapse the gate.  It's hard to speculate on exactly what the effect of that might be.  Would it instantly unravel, or would it slowly come apart?  Would some part of the gholam still end up passing through it?  I can't say for sure.

[Knobs Mahoney]

It would probably slice the gholam in half...remember Rand losing the heel of a boot?

[Sharaman]

Flows of OP melt when they touch the gholam.

Maybe nothing would happen to it.

 

[yoniy0]

Maybe, but that's if it touched the edge first thing. If its head is already through when its arm hits the Gate, I can't imagine it being somehow knocked back out of it. Never mind, it's hard to tell at this point, and not much time left before we know for sure.

[cgilbertmc]

What about TP? OP may dissolve when in contact with the Gholam or medallion, but is there any evidence that TP will be affected in the same way?

[Aquarius]

What about TP? OP may dissolve when in contact with the Gholam or medallion, but is there any evidence that TP will be affected in the same way?

Yes that's what I suggested a few pages ago but it seemed verybody was more interrested by **couhg** off-topic things :p.

 

TP is interresting but it means that:

- Rand finishes it (unlikely, it's so much in Mat's business)

or

- Moridin finishes it (unlikely, he actually wants Mat & Perrin dead)

or

- Moridin kills it by mistake (wrong aim, accident happen ...)

 

[Knobs Mahoney]

Flows of OP melt when they touch the gholam.

Maybe nothing would happen to it.

 

 

The "hole in reality" created by a gate weave is not a weave in and of itself. A weave holds it open, when the weave vanishes or is broken the gate snaps closed. Bye bye Gholam.