Why doesn't anyone care that the true source has been cleansed?

[Mr Ares]

How could they not believe he is the one who did it?

How could they believe he is capable? Or why? And why should he bother to convince them?

[Arkelias]

How could they believe he's capable?

 

Because they know he has callandor and as far as they know its the most powerful Sa' Angreal in the world.  Because they know a male channeler used more of Saidin than any of them would have believed possible.  Because at the exact instant that the use of that torrent stopped the source was clean.  What other conclusion would they draw?

 

And why did he clean it?  Seriously?  Umm, to keep male channelers from going insane.

 

Why should he bother to convince them?  Because he needs them to be loyal to him for the last battle, and that's going to be challenging if they don't know who he is.  Moreso because their current leader, the man they probably respect most, is clearly a darkfriend earning more converts every day.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

How could they believe he's capable?

 

Because they know he has callandor and as far as they know its the most powerful Sa' Angreal in the world.

So? Even if they know he has a really powerful sa'angreal, that was a huge amount of the Power being used. They might believe (and would be correct) that it is orders of magnitude beyond what Callandor could achieve.

Because they know a male channeler used more of Saidin than any of them would have believed possible. Because at the exact instant that the use of that torrent stopped the source was clean. What other conclusion would they draw?

Have you actually read the books? What conclusion does Logain draw? That the Creator did it. He thinks it more than Rand could draw. Aside from Rand drawing through the Choedan Kal right in front of the entire BT, they have no reason to believe it was him. That torrent of saidin, with it clean at the end, they can see that was it being Cleansed. Doesn't mean it was Rand doing it. Hell, the AS know of sa'angreal, and they believe it was the Chosen, because it is so much stronger than the entire WT could achieve.

 

And why did he clean it?

No, that's not the question I asked. Why would they believe he was capable? A man who was kidnapped and locked in a box is as powerful as a god?

 

Really, he has no reason to go around saying it was him that did it. Saying he did won't convince anyoe, not unless he has proof.

[Arkelias]

So? Even if they know he has a really powerful sa'angreal, that was a huge amount of the Power being used. They might believe (and would be correct) that it is orders of magnitude beyond what Callandor could achieve.

 

They might, but how would they know?  No one seems to know how powerful Callandor is, and how could they without having used it?  All they know is that a massive amount of power was chanelled.  If you are the average Asha'man there are only a couple of conclusions you could really draw:

 

#1- The Forsaken are at work

 

#2- The Dragon Reborn is at work

 

Which of these two wants the true source cleansed?  I'm going to go out on a limb here and venture that the highest servants of the dark one don't want the one power clean, and that your avergage Asha'man is capable of figuring it out.

 

Have you actually read the books?

 

Why must everything you post involve an insult?  Obviously I've read the books. 

 

What conclusion does Logain draw? That the Creator did it.

 

Which is total BS in my opinion.  The Creator came down and cleansed the true source?  Really? The one who can't touch the world and doesn't interfere?  The one who sends his champion, the prophecied one, the Dragon Reborn, to fight the Shadow?

 

I don't buy it and I don't buy Logain believing it.  He has to know that an enormous amount of the one power was used, and that the source was cleansed right after.  People use the one power, not the creator.

 

Aside from Rand drawing through the Choedan Kal right in front of the entire BT, they have no reason to believe it was him.

 

They'd have a reason if Rand showed up and told them he did it.  Some of them might doubt him, but you're overlooking a basic fact here Ares.  Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  The prophecied one.  He is supposed to fight the last battle.

 

If he can't cleanse the true source what chance does he have against the Dark One?  I think most Asha'man would accept that he did it, particularly when the Asha'man who witnessed the act told their tale to their counterparts at the BT.

 

That torrent of saidin, with it clean at the end, they can see that was it being Cleansed. Doesn't mean it was Rand doing it.

 

Who else would have done it?  What other conclusion do you think they'd draw?  The forsaken did it?  The creator?  Neither makes sense.

 

Hell, the AS know of sa'angreal, and they believe it was the Chosen, because it is so much stronger than the entire WT could achieve.

 

The AS believe its the chosen, because they feel Saidar not Saidin.  Nor are they aware its been cleansed after.  This part makes sense, and isn't something I'm arguing.  I'm talking about the Asha'man's reaction.

 

No, that's not the question I asked. Why would they believe he was capable? A man who was kidnapped and locked in a box is as powerful as a god?

 

Because he drew Callandor from the stone.  Because he's conquered nations.  Because he is stronger in the power than anyone else, including taim.  Most of all because if he can't, they are all in serious trouble when Tarmon Gaidon roles around.

 

If your Dragon Reborn is some cripple in a box you've got problems.

 

Really, he has no reason to go around saying it was him that did it. Saying he did won't convince anyoe, not unless he has proof.

 

He has no reason? o.O  How about getting the Asha'man to be loyal to him?

 

Showing up at the Black Tower right after it was done and making a pronouncement would have convinced plenty of people.  If you were a dedicated or soldier enrolled and the DRAGON REBORN shows up to tell you he's cleansed the source, would you doubt him?  Especially when you know for a fact that the source has just been cleansed.

 

You might, but there's no proof anyone else did it and plenty of supporting evidence to show Rand did.  If necessary he could even show them or tell them of the Choden Kal.  That would sway more people to believe it.

 

My point is that Rand could have taken credit, and could have convinced the Black Tower he cleansed the source.  If you believe he couldn't please explain why.  He has all the tools and all the facts to back him up, including Aes Sedai who will swear to it. 

 

Everyone knows they can't lie.  Do you think the Asha'man will doubt all the proof when its back by Aes Sedai as well?  I don't.

[mb]

Why should he bother to convince them?  Because he needs them to be loyal to him for the last battle

Convincing them that he did it might not make them loyal to him.  Convincing that he did it might make them indifferent toward him.

He might also need to convince them of the reason.  Even then they might not be loyal.

Getting rid of Taim would probably need to be the main thing to do for them to at least began to become loyal.  Probably also getting rid of any Forsaken influencing them.

 

Have you actually read the books?

Why must everything you post involve an insult?  Obviously I've read the books.

His question to me is reasonable.  And from his perspective it probably was not obvious.

 

[Arkelias]

Wait, Rand would need to convince the Asha'man of why he cleansed the true source? Why? The reason is obvious, to stop them from all going insane.

 

Put yourself in the head of an Asha'man.  You were recruited to serve the dragon reborn, and have decided to learn to channel because you know the last battle is coming.  Yet, you also know the cost.  You will eventually go insane.

 

The Dragon himself shows up at the Black Tower.  You and all the other Asha'man are gathered.  Rand tells you that he has cleansed the true source in preparation for the last battle.  This is the man you are going to follow to Tarmon Gaidon, and he's just done something everyone thought impossible.  Something that has an overwhelming effect on you personally.

 

If that doesn't engender loyalty I don't know what would.  Killing Taim won't help.  They know him, he's the man who trained them.  It would cause a schism at the school, a civil war basically.  If you convince them to follow you first far fewer Asha'man would side with Taim.

 

His question to me is reasonable.  And from his perspective it probably was not obvious.

 

He and I have had discussions on other threads.  He knows I've read the books. 

 

[Balefire to da face!]

Wait, Rand would need to convince the Asha'man of why he cleansed the true source? Why? The reason is obvious, to stop them from all going insane.

 

Put yourself in the head of an Asha'man.  You were recruited to serve the dragon reborn, and have decided to learn to channel because you know the last battle is coming.  Yet, you also know the cost.  You will eventually go insane.

 

The Dragon himself shows up at the Black Tower.  You and all the other Asha'man are gathered.  Rand tells you that he has cleansed the true source in preparation for the last battle.  This is the man you are going to follow to Tarmon Gaidon, and he's just done something everyone thought impossible.  Something that has an overwhelming effect on you personally.

 

If that doesn't engender loyalty I don't know what would.  Killing Taim won't help.  They know him, he's the man who trained them.  It would cause a schism at the school, a civil war basically.  If you convince them to follow you first far fewer Asha'man would side with Taim.

 

His question to me is reasonable.  And from his perspective it probably was not obvious.

 

He and I have had discussions on other threads.  He knows I've read the books.  

 

 

Exactly.

 

It seems as though some people will point out that there will be skepticism because of 3000 years of prejudice, but then on the flip side of the coin they don't realize just how profound of an effect this would have as a result of that. Yes, AS will be skeptical because it's the way things have always been and thought unchangable, so on the flip side what do you think the effect on Ashaman would be when Rand showed up and told them he had actually done it?

 

Not just gratitude and relief that they would not go mad.

 

Not just awe and reverence for a man who just did what was thought impossible.

 

But even to those who were already loyal to Taim it would make them say "you know what, maybe I am playing for the wrong team"

 

It was an act that could mean virtually nothing but good things for Rand if he would just take advantage of it.

 

It's funny, a while back someone said something along the lines of "it's not Rand's style to take credit for stuff". Which is true, and I've always found it to be a flaw of Rand. He's brilliant in some area's strategically(at least...he used to be....) but I think Rand has always passed up on the oppurtunity of how much a good speech could engender loyalty to a ruler.

 

Imagine if he had stood on the heights of the Stone after taking Callandor and actually spoke to the people, instead of just letting them stew in the fact that the Dragon had been reborn. He doesn't try to aliviate thier fears, or take credit for the fact that he is chaning Tairen law to make thier lives better. He just sits in the Stone while the Tairen people are thinking Light knows what about the Dragon conquering thier country.

 

Some might say that talk is cheap and Rand lets his actions speak for themselves....but still, actions without explanation do not earn you loyalty of the people.

[Arkelias]

Especially when your enemies take advantage of your silence to spin lies and cast doubt on your accomplishments.

[mb]

Put yourself in the head of an Asha'man.  You were recruited to serve the dragon reborn, and have decided to learn to channel because you know the last battle is coming.  Yet, you also know the cost.  You will eventually go insane.

The Dragon himself shows up at the Black Tower.  You and all the other Asha'man are gathered.  Rand tells you that he has cleansed the true source in preparation for the last battle.  This is the man you are going to follow to Tarmon Gaidon, and he's just done something everyone thought impossible.  Something that has an overwhelming effect on you personally.

If that doesn't engender loyalty I don't know what would.  Killing Taim won't help.  They know him, he's the man who trained them.  It would cause a schism at the school, a civil war basically.  If you convince them to follow you first far fewer Asha'man would side with Taim.

Loyalty from being convinced that Rand did it, that still seems doubtful.  They might decide to go their own way; possibly decide that they no longer need Rand, decide that it would be safe to experiment with saidin alone.  There might be a number of Ashaman that already have a fixed opinion about it since saidin has been clean for some time now; Taim might have been an influence in that.

There seems already civil war in the Black Tower since there are 2 main factions (Logain's and Taim's).  Or if not already, civil war seems inevitable with just faction distrust.  The main way to get them to follow would be to convince them of Taim's disloyalty, before or after removing him.

 

[Arkelias]

Huh.  I always assumed the people joining knew that Tarmon Gaidon is coming.  It has to be apparent to everyone by now what with the food spoiling and the dead being seen everywhere.

 

If you know Tarmon Gaidon is coming you sort of have to pick one side or the other.  Either you are fighting the Dark One, or you are working for him.  Seeing the Dragon Reborn clean Saidin would go a long way towards reasurring Rand's followers that he has a chance against the DO.  I'd think this would sway many on the fence to his side. 

 

Also, remember the glacial pace of the books.  Its only been a few weeks since Rand cleansed Saidin.  This is a momentous life altering event for the Asha'man.  He should have come immediately and announced it, but even if he showed up now it would still have a massive impact on them.

 

I still can't believe you don't think it would be a factor, MB.  As a male channeller you going insane is kind of a big issue.  Don't you think having that removed would matter to them?  If it was you and someone saved not only your life but your sanity would you be grateful?  I know I would.

 

Yes there is a civil war brewing.  Wouldn't it make sense to get as many Asha'man as possible on Logain / Rand's side?  Even if announcing it only won a few more to Rand's cause it would still have been worth it.

 

Regardless of where you fall on my argument the original point of this thread is still the same as when I started it.  Even if it made not a lick of difference to the BT as you seem to think, at least we could have been given some scenes to show that.

 

Instead of the total absence of discussion about the cleansing I just wanted something to happen in regards to it.  Especially in the one place in the world where every last man would both know it had been done and care very much about the outcome.

 

Instead, this topic has barely been discussed in the books.  There have been a couple of cursory mentions, but nothing beyond that and certainly nothing about the Black Tower's reaction.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's kind of a case of Jordan being damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

 

By the time the Cleansing happens there are already too many loose ends that need to be tied-up.  If a bunch of pages and POVs are taken up talking about the Cleansing, that just further postpones tying up those loose ends.

 

Granted, the Cleansing is a big deal, but so are many other issues that readers have been waiting year and years to see resolved.

 

So, which squeaky wheel do you grease?

 

Whichever one it is, some person or group is going to be disappointed that you didn't grease theirs first.

[Balefire to da face!]

Wow...ok...wow. So much wrong with this post.....

 

 

Loyalty from being convinced that Rand did it, that still seems doubtful.

 

Not really. Again, people want to go back to the reasons why the cleansing would not be beleived, but then don't want to acknowledge just how profound it is that Rand has done it.

 

While a hallmark of the series is that characters often go thier own way, and do things to suit themselves that is primarily in the lords/nobles/rulers/AS camp. We often see lower ranks suchs as civilians and soldiers very loyal to Rand. The Ashaman are somewhere inbetween, but as the two factions show, if they are loyal to Taim and/or Logain, why exactly would they not be loyal to the Dragon Reborn, who just cleansed Saidin.

 

Again, we are not saying that the Ashaman are going to go "Hey, you did me a favor...you're ok in my book Rand!". It's a combination of both gratitude, relief, and sheer awe at what Rand did that would win over the Ashaman. Presumably.

 

They might decide to go their own way; possibly decide that they no longer need Rand, decide that it would be safe to experiment with saidin alone.  There might be a number of Ashaman that already have a fixed opinion about it since saidin has been clean for some time now; Taim might have been an influence in that.

 

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they "go thier own way" now that Saidin is clean. That would suggest that they went to the BT to be protected from the taint. The reason for the existence of the BT has never been that, in fact, it's been brutally clear that the BT has a policy of "Use Saidin as much as possible, and if you succumb to the taint you will be put down".

 

It's always been about being a solider for the Dragon. Taim has twisted that to suit his purposes, but never has it been about protecting men from Saidin.

 

Granted, kind of a secondary goal of Rand's was to protect stray male channelers from a world that feared them, but that hasn't changed, so that's not a factor.

 

 

There seems already civil war in the Black Tower since there are 2 main factions (Logain's and Taim's).  Or if not already, civil war seems inevitable with just faction distrust.  The main way to get them to follow would be to convince them of Taim's disloyalty, before or after removing him.

 

No, the main way to get things under control would be to unite the Ashaman in a common, clear goal around the Dragon Reborn(which was initially why they were there in the first place). Taim has been allowed to plant seeds because Rand has been no where in sight for 4 or 5 books! None but those already deep in Taim's grasp should really have much of a reason to not unite around Rand should he show up and actually ****ing lead them, much less if he showed up and announced that he had cleansed Saidin.

 

Bob: That is a valid point, to a degree. The problem is that it seems people got so used to not much happening that they forgot just how much could happen in a small amount of time/pages. Just because the Elayne fiasco has taken up chapter after chapter after chapter doesn't mean that has to be the norm.

 

Again, just look at how much happened in KoD when Jordan finally cut to the chase....

[Arkelias]

It's kind of a case of Jordan being damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

 

By the time the Cleansing happens there are already too many loose ends that need to be tied-up.  If a bunch of pages and POVs are taken up talking about the Cleansing, that just further postpones tying up those loose ends.

 

Granted, the Cleansing is a big deal, but so are many other issues that readers have been waiting year and years to see resolved.

 

So, which squeaky wheel do you grease?

 

Whichever one it is, some person or group is going to be disappointed that you didn't grease theirs first.

 

This was a dilemma I'm sure he wrestled with Bob, but it was also a problem of his own creation.  He lost control of the story and it ended up larger than I think he ever expected.

 

Not writing Crossroads of Twilight would have helped.  Elayne's storyline could have been condensed.  So could Perrin's.  Doing either would have freed up enough space to write about something like Rand going to the Black Tower, and would have been far more interesting to boot.

 

The reason why so many plot threads remain unresolved is because Jordan didn't resolve them.  Instead he wrote the endless Perrin / Morgase / Elayne saga no one cared about.  I've brought that up on a number of threads and almost no one tries to defend those story arcs.

 

What if those had been removed?  Then you'd have had plenty of space to address some of the side characters who the readers feel deserved a larger role.  You know like that Rand guy.

[Blackhoof]

I know, why cant elayne just automatically have the Lion Throne? It would make things so much more simpler.

[Arkelias]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, Blackhoof.  I'm assuming that it was, so if I'm incorrect I apologize!

 

Cutting three books of boring chapters down to a story arc that could have been resolved in a single book is not the same thing as Elayne automatically gaining the lion throne.

 

Just because that part of the story needed to happen doesn't mean it needed to be as long as it was.  It was repetitious to the extreme.  If you find yourself with some free time you can even invent a little drinking game.

 

Every time Elayne's pregnancy is mentioned take a drink.  Every time a kin/windfinder/Aes Sedai glares at another, smooths her skirt or adjust her shawl take a drink.  Every time the bond between Brigette and Elayne is mentioned take a drink.  Unless you can drink sailors under the table you're going to be unconscious after about three pages.

 

Elayne's story should have been included.  It just didn't need to be any longer than four chapters.

[Mr Ares]

They might, but how would they know?

How would they know he can do it

?#1- The Forsaken are at work

 

#2- The Dragon Reborn is at work

#3 The Creatyor is at work. Clearly, they can believe that.

Which of these two wants the true source cleansed?

Well, some of the Chosen are men. The Asha'man don't know about the protection they have, so from their point of view it is reasonable that they might get rid of it rather than go insane.

Why must everything you post involve an insult?

Doesn't. Hypocrite.

Obviously I've read the books.

Then use them.

Which is total BS in my opinion.

Your opinion is worthless. Just because you accept the Creator as completely non-interventionist, doesn't mean everyone else has to. And really, what reason is there to dismiss it? Well, you accept a completely non-interventionist Creator. That's it. If you don't accept that premise, then there is no reason to reach that conclusion.

The one who can't touch the world

No, the one RJ wrote about.

and doesn't interfere?

According to some viewpoints. Not necessarily universal throughout Randland.

I don't buy Logain believing it.

Why not? Bearing in mind your reasons so far are woefully inadequate.

He has to know that an enormous amount of the one power was used, and that the source was cleansed right after.

Irrelevant.

People use the one power, not the creator.

You just made that up.

 

They'd have a reason if Rand showed up and told them he did it.

Not much reason.

Some of them might doubt him, but you're overlooking a basic fact here

I'm not. It's just not relevant. Fighting the Last Battle doesn't make you a god. If you accept that nothing short of a god could wield that amount of the Power (and people could easily believe that) then it couldn't be Rand, Dragon Reborn or not.

If he can't cleanse the true source what chance does he have against the Dark One?

Doesn't follow.

Who else would have done it?

Creator. Chosen.

What other conclusion do you think they'd draw?

What conclusion did Logain draw?

 

The AS believe its the chosen, because they feel Saidar not Saidin.

Irrelevant.

Because he drew Callandor from the stone.

Irrelevant.

Because he's conquered nations.

Irrelevant.

Because he is stronger in the power than anyone else, including taim.

Irrelevant.

Most of all because if he can't, they are all in serious trouble when Tarmon Gaidon roles around.

How so?

 

If your Dragon Reborn is some cripple in a box you've got problems.

Then they have problems.

 

How about getting the Asha'man to be loyal to him?

What about it? Rand doesn't consider it an urgent problem.

 

If necessary he could even show them or tell them of the Choden Kal.

That would convince he was strong enough. But not wise to tell so much.

 

If you believe he couldn't please explain why.

He could, with sufficient effort. He doesn't see a reason to put in the effort.

 

Killing Taim won't help. They know him, he's the man who trained them. It would cause a schism at the school, a civil war basically. If you convince them to follow you first far fewer Asha'man would side with Taim.

When Taim makes his move, what do you think he'll say? "Let's betray the Dragon, chaps"? Or "Logain is a traitor, who stands with me and the Dragon"? Except in the case of his Dreadlord cronies, who will follow him because they have orders to do so. Taim isn't necessarily going to walk around with a badge saying EVIL on it.

 

Wouldn't it make sense to get as many Asha'man as possible on Logain / Rand's side?

But that's just it. People won't automatically think Logain's side is Rand's. If they think Taim is loyal to Rand, then people loyal to Rand will act when Taim tells them to. Building loyalty to Rand isn't enough, you need to undermine loyalty to Taim.

 

Not writing Crossroads of Twilight would have helped. Elayne's storyline could have been condensed. So could Perrin's. Doing either would have freed up enough space to write about something like Rand going to the Black Tower, and would have been far more interesting to boot.

Non-sensical garbage. The longest book in the series, TSR is over 120,000 words longer than CoT. If he couldn't cover it in 120,000 words, how would cutting out a couple of Perrin or Elayne chapters help? KoD is only the fourth longest in the series, a fair way behind TSR, some 78,000 words. He could have covered it in those books if he wanted. That he didn't indicates he didn't want to. And I fail to see why Rand going to the BT and giving a speech makes for such terrific reading. In Elayne and Perrin's stories, we begin to see a breakdown in the fabric of reality, with the ghosts and the changing rooms. But Rand going to the BT and saying "I Cleansed the Source" to the response "Thanks." Doesn't exactly make for thrilling reading. Evidently, RJ didn't think this wheel needed grease just yet.

 

As it is, Rand was recovering from the Cleansing, then he set up a meeting with the Daughter of the Nine Moons, then he went to it (it turned out to be Semi), captured a Chosen and lost his hand. I believe he was last referenced in KoD as being on the move again (in Elayne's pov). Maybe he pays a visit to the BT at some point while on the move, in which case it might happen in TGS. If at all. Cutting down Perrin and Elayne's storylines would only have resulted in shorter books. If you could cut out about 200K from the last two, then you could justify them being one book.

[Blackhoof]

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not, Blackhoof.  I'm assuming that it was, so if I'm incorrect I apologize!

 

Cutting three books of boring chapters down to a story arc that could have been resolved in a single book is not the same thing as Elayne automatically gaining the lion throne.

 

Just because that part of the story needed to happen doesn't mean it needed to be as long as it was.  It was repetitious to the extreme.  If you find yourself with some free time you can even invent a little drinking game.

 

Every time Elayne's pregnancy is mentioned take a drink.  Every time a kin/windfinder/Aes Sedai glares at another, smooths her skirt or adjust her shawl take a drink.  Every time the bond between Brigette and Elayne is mentioned take a drink.  Unless you can drink sailors under the table you're going to be unconscious after about three pages.

 

Elayne's story should have been included.  It just didn't need to be any longer than four chapters.

 

Lol. And i wasn't being sarcastic, but i suppose she could get the throne after a little hassle, not four books of beetchy windfinders and "Oh, how am i going to correct all of rands mistakes!".

[mb]

Lol. And i wasn't being sarcastic, but i suppose she could get the throne after a little hassle, not four books of beetchy windfinders and "Oh, how am i going to correct all of rands mistakes!".

She did not constantly complain about Rand and her dealings with the Windfinders/Sea-Folk in Andor is in just 2 or 3 books.  Rand's only mistake about Andor is telling that he would give her the throne; the other 'mistakes' would be due to Rahvin.

A little hassle, that might be considered a stretch; a number of the High Seats were besieging her.  Persuading besiegers seems generally difficult.

 

[Arkelias]

Elayne's storyline on taking the throne begins in book 8 and ends in 11.  That's four books not too or three.  She did constantly complain about Rand, on a number of different issues.  Him 'giving' her the throne was one, the pregnancy was another, and any time she got news of him doing anything like taking Illian there was still more complaining.

 

Its the length of time we had to suffer through this that's the issue.  If it -was- 2 books I doubt you'd see so many people complain mb.

[mb]

Elayne's storyline on taking the throne begins in book 8 and ends in 11.  That's four books not too or three.

I said her dealings with the Sea Folk were 2 or 3 books, not her rising to the throne.  Elayne did not really have dealings with the Sea Folk in the 9th book.

 

She did constantly complain about Rand, on a number of different issues.  Him 'giving' her the throne was one, the pregnancy was another, and any time she got news of him doing anything like taking Illian there was still more complaining.

Constant complaining about Rand would be every scene in her POV having a complaint about him.  Not all her POVs have complaints about Rand.  And not all her comments about Rand were complaints.

 

[Blackhoof]

Most of them were. She should be worshipping the ground he walks on; he was the one who ousted Rahvin, i can't see her doing it, she would probably be dead by now. But no, all we hear is "Rand makes so many mistakes..." or "I wsh i was there to protect him from his blunders". The least she could have done was think once, "Well, at least he got Rahvin off the throne".

 

Take out the siege and replace it with a little bit of a hassle (dont know what) and you have dropped two books of problems, and elayne has the Lion Throne.

[mb]

Most of them were. She should be worshipping the ground he walks on; he was the one who ousted Rahvin, i can't see her doing it, she would probably be dead by now. But no, all we hear is "Rand makes so many mistakes..." or "I wsh i was there to protect him from his blunders". The least she could have done was think once, "Well, at least he got Rahvin off the throne".

 

Take out the siege and replace it with a little bit of a hassle (dont know what) and you have dropped two books of problems, and elayne has the Lion Throne.

'Most of them were' and 'all we hear is [complaints]', those are contradictions.  And she did not say the complaints you mention.

She praised him right after he was done at Shadar Logoth; even though she did not know what he done there.

 

Worshiping the ground he walks on, that would be a bit extreme.  A ruler (or someone becoming a ruler) should look after the needs of its people; which she has done.

 

To me the series is worthwhile with her problems.  Slight chance of the series being worthwhile without the siege and with just little hassle.

 

[Arkelias]

To me the series is worthwhile with her problems.  Slight chance of the series being worthwhile without the siege and with just little hassle.

 

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying MB.  The series wouldn't be worthwhile without the seige?  If Elayne had gotten the throne with fewer problems you feel that would have destroyed the series?

 

'Most of them were' and 'all we hear is [complaints]', those are contradictions.

 

The phrase 'All we hear' is a generalization.  He's not saying every word is a complaint.  He's saying the complaints came too frequently, and consequently got really annoying to read.

 

And she did not say the complaints you mention.

 

Sure she did.  She has straight out complained about Rand's many mistakes, and has used the word blunder if I remember correctly.  Nor did she ever express gratitude for him risking his life to kill Ravhin and avenge her mother.

 

She praised him right after he was done at Shadar Logoth; even though she did not know what he done there.

 

That's not praise if she didn't even know what he did.  She never praises him for his accomplishments, only belittles him for his mistakes.

 

Worshiping the ground he walks on, that would be a bit extreme.  A ruler (or someone becoming a ruler) should look after the needs of its people; which she has done.

 

You seem to have a hard time understanding hyperbole.  He doesn't mean she should literally worship him.  He means she should be extremely grateful to Rand for doing what no one else could.

[Nightstrike]

I do think that people care that saidin has been cleansed. It was in focus for a while, but eventually everybody has got to move on. The last battle is coming. They aren't saved just because saidin was cleansed. Many of the men are already contaminated. Those belonging to the Shadow probably had filters. At least some of them.

 

As for Elayne, maybe she has reacted strangely in our eyes (us readers have a different cultural background). And maybe some parts of the story has been given too much focus. But, on the other hand, I think it is more realistic to expect nobility and others to fight over the throne. Real world history shows us how much murder and betrayal any royal court had to deal with. Even siblings murdered each other in horrible ways. Elayne probably had good reasons for not wanting Rand's help with becoming queen.

[mb]

To me the series is worthwhile with her problems.  Slight chance of the series being worthwhile without the siege and with just little hassle.

I want to make sure I understand what you're saying MB.  The series wouldn't be worthwhile without the seige?  If Elayne had gotten the throne with fewer problems you feel that would have destroyed the series?

'destroyed', not necessarily; probably 'been made less enjoyable'.

 

And she did not say the complaints you mention.

Sure she did.  She has straight out complained about Rand's many mistakes, and has used the word blunder if I remember correctly.

Within the last few days, I checked the books; she has not said those things in any scene.

If someone provides exact scenes where she does say those things, I would reconsider.

 

She praised him right after he was done at Shadar Logoth; even though she did not know what he done there.

That's not praise if she didn't even know what he did.

She at least thought he has done something wonderful.