Prologue "What the Storm Means" Spoiler Thread

[DemandredFO]

and she's a woman, that's enough for Rand.  I mean he won't let them harm SEMIRAHGUE, SEMIRAHGUE who frightened her jailers into helping her escape, who was The Lady of Pain and probably slaughtered lots of people as painfully as possible in the War of the Shadow; all of which Rand would know through LTT.

[Vambram]

Rand has experienced the deaths of many women in the series, such as the Maidens of the Spear, with whom he cares a great deal more than he does Alanna. Again, Alanna's bond with Rand has given her absolutely zero control over Rand, and likewise, Rand has hardly any positive feelings towards Alanna at all. Alanna's bond with Rand does not have the same effects over him as it normally might because Rand was holding saidin at the time that she put that Warder's bond upon him.

 

I believe Greandal's target will be Aviendha in order to fulfill Moridin's order that we see in the Prologue.

[richnewton82]

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[Vambram]

Not only is she unable to use compulsion, .. a weave I am not sure that Alanna knows, but the normal amount of obedience that an aes sedai can expect and force from their warders is she unable to extract at all from Rand.

[richnewton82]

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[richnewton82]

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[Vambram]

The point is this though. Alanna has been completely unable at all to control Rand al'Thor in any way, shape, manner or fashion. She has ZERO control over him. Or do you care to debate that fact, as well?

[richnewton82]

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[Cecero]

What is interesting is this.  First off, if Alanna dies, or Min, or Avienda (highly unlikely), or Elayne (highly unlikely) Rand will actually FEEL the woman dying, and though he may not "love" Alanna, Rand has always cared about all the women who had died because of him, no matter who they were. He still has the darkfriend woman who was with the grey man in TDR on his list or women he remembers.  Seeing women die is one thing, actually FEELING them die is going to be completely different. In my eyes, that is the ONLY way that his "steel" will shatter.  Now, I have been thinking, and I think some serious torture may do the trick, l la Cabriana and her warder.  But, I believe to truly emotionally shatter him (Graendal's instructions) one of them will have to die.  The warder bond IS that strong just by its nature. 

 

The argument that it is completely different because Alanna can't "compel" Rand to do things has an easy explanation - Rand is the puller of the strings and the entire pattern itself - especially those around him. The bond isn't powerful enough to overcome that.  She would, in fact, have to USE compulsion, which anyone can really do (or try) without the Bond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

I disagree. The reason why I disagree is that Lan actually cared about Moiraine, and willingly would have given his life to protect her. I truly doubt that the same thing can be truthfully shown from the WOT concerning Rand and Alanna.

 

we have no evidence at all that the warder has to care about the bonder....

Since many warders used to be bonded against their will, it probably doesn't matter. However, Rand being a channeler and ta'veren might help mitigate the effects. We just don't know though.

[bialio]

Mesaana's certainly not a novice or accepted. Why? Well, she wouldn't be in a position of influence if she was! If her only influence in the Tower would have been ordering Alviarin around, she wouldn't have to stay in the Tower all the time and pose as anyone at all!

Mesaana is posing as a full Aes Sedai and probably even as a Black Ajah sister. That must be, because she discovered Alviarin to be the head of the Black Ajah. I doubt Ishy told her that. I stick to Danelle being Mesaana, though she hasn't been exposed as BA.

 

Graendal certainly thinks that Mesaana's posing as an Aes Sedai - Graendal thinks "Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. <snip> Graendal's agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana's activities." 

 

So to me that says Graendal knows who Mesaana is in the tower.

 

btl.

[sumquy]

I agree that killing Alanna would do the trick. Plus everything I've read on the warder bond implies that the snapping the bond causes the warder to do whatever is neccessary to avenge their AS. Nothing really is said about the warders condition afterward, if they live through it. But if Rand killed Graendel that would certainly be another blow to his psyche.

[Vambram]

I agree that killing Alanna would do the trick. Plus everything I've read on the warder bond implies that the snapping the bond causes the warder to do whatever is neccessary to avenge their AS. Nothing really is said about the warders condition afterward, if they live through it. But if Rand killed Graendel that would certainly be another blow to his psyche.

 

I disagree, and the reason is because Alanna is not the one who pulls Rand's strings. Instead, Rand is the one who pulls Alanna's strings. Rand al'Thor is not a mere warder. He is the Dragon Reborn, the strongest Tav'eren as well as the strongest channeler in the WOT. In my opinion, it is very highly improbably that Rand would "snap" if Alanna were killed. On the other hand, if Elayne, Aviendha, or Min were either killed or very seriously injured or tortured, then I believe that would indeed cause Rand al'Thor to "snap."

[richnewton82]

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[Vambram]

I believe your view is 100% speculation. What you have seen in the series about warders that support your view are the warders whom are NOT channelers, and whom are NOT Tav'eren.

[Mr.Big]

and she's a woman, that's enough for Rand.  I mean he won't let them harm SEMIRAHGUE, SEMIRAHGUE who frightened her jailers into helping her escape, who was The Lady of Pain and probably slaughtered lots of people as painfully as possible in the War of the Shadow; all of which Rand would know through LTT.

I wonder if part of Rand's obsession with not bringing harm to any woman whatsoever could be LTT's guilt over his dead wife lurking in Rand's  subconscious.

[Mr.Big]

I believe your view is 100% speculation. What you have seen in the series about warders that support your view are the warders whom are NOT channelers, and whom are NOT Tav'eren.

But you do have to consider the Lews Therin Kinslayer factor and how it could effect Rand's speculative reaction.

Thanks Luckers-never thought of that,now I have my first modification achieved.

[Luckers]

Ok, everyone calm down.

 

Vambram, richnewton was correct in his statement--the listed facts are what we've seen in the book, and there is nothing to indicate that may be different for channelers or ta'veren. Alanna cannot compel Rand--because he is protected by saidin as are all male channelers--and due to how she came to hold his bond he's not likely to choose to obey her wishes as a Warder would have sworn to do.

 

Which is of course not to say that his ability to channel mightn't have an effect in the event of a bond snapping--the death absortion effect seems vaguely compulsive, and men who can channel are immune to compulsive effects when wrapped in saidin. Perhaps this would occur in the same manner... but it is still just complete speculation on our parts.

 

 

Mr. Big, for forum stat reasons could you try and make all replies in a single comment. If you think of something new after commenting, select modify and then add it. Thanks mate.

 

 

[Vambram]

I apologise for the tone of my posts being misinterpreted. I was not excited or upset, but instead I was trying to emphasize certain words in my posts. And yes, richnewton is correct in that Rand was not holding saidin when Alanna bonded him. However, I still really do believe that the rest of my points in the current topic of debate in this thread are either true, or shall prove to be true in the last three books.

[Xcom788]

and she's a woman, that's enough for Rand.  I mean he won't let them harm SEMIRAHGUE, SEMIRAHGUE who frightened her jailers into helping her escape, who was The Lady of Pain and probably slaughtered lots of people as painfully as possible in the War of the Shadow; all of which Rand would know through LTT.

I wonder if part of Rand's obsession with not bringing harm to any woman whatsoever could be LTT's guilt over his dead wife lurking in Rand's  subconscious.

 

Na remember LTT had no problem with trying to still the sisters who beat rand at the wells. I believe its a part of how rand was raised. Sure his state of mind is pretty screwed up. However I don't think LTT would have a problem killing a women he believed deserved it.

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

i agree. its too bad rand isnt more like lews therin.

[Kary]

About the theory that Alanna will be killed to cause Rand pain. Please correct me if I've forgotten the details, but isn't the problem with that theory that the forsaken dont know that she has bonded him? I thought only a handful of Aes Sedai were in on the secret, as well as some people close to Rand.

[Gilmadin]

Yes, I also agree that LTT is not the source of Rand's regret for the death of women, that it was an effect of his upbringing. Mat and Perrin have the same "problem" -- they hate to see a woman die. Neither one of them takes it quite to the extreme that Rand does, but Mat has some serious regrets about killing Melindhra at the end of tFoH, and he didn't kill that woman in the alley in KoD, Tuon had to kill her for him. I personally think that in her attempts to hurt Rand, Graendal will go for one of the three (my vote is Aviendha), but in the process, Alanna will be killed. That could very well break his emotional state -- the longer that list of women gets, the heavier it weighs on his soul. Eventually, that list will get so long, he won't be able to stand it anymore.

[Mr.Big]

Yes, I also agree that LTT is not the source of Rand's regret for the death of women, that it was an effect of his upbringing. Mat and Perrin have the same "problem" -- they hate to see a woman die. Neither one of them takes it quite to the extreme that Rand does, but Mat has some serious regrets about killing Melindhra at the end of tFoH, and he didn't kill that woman in the alley in KoD, Tuon had to kill her for him. I personally think that in her attempts to hurt Rand, Graendal will go for one of the three (my vote is Aviendha), but in the process, Alanna will be killed. That could very well break his emotional state -- the longer that list of women gets, the heavier it weighs on his soul. Eventually, that list will get so long, he won't be able to stand it anymore.

Is Alanna currently travelling with Rand and his crew?I always thought he liked to keep her far away from himself.

[perrin51]

Yes, I also agree that LTT is not the source of Rand's regret for the death of women, that it was an effect of his upbringing. Mat and Perrin have the same "problem"

 

I agree that their upbringing has a large amount to do with how they feel about hurting or killing women. However that does not fully explain Rand's feelings. I think that killing Ilyena and then being made sane to understand what he had done, made an indelible mark on LTT/Rand's soul. I think that this is also part of why Rand has so many issues with trying to shelter women. As the LTT persona has emerged his feelings of responsibility and self recrimination have increased.

 

As to what will happen to Rand if Alanna is killed: What affect does being bonded to four people have (three of whom can channel)? I know that Alanna was affected by one of her Warders dying, but is the effect lessened by dilution.

 

On a side note, Marise had Jahar pretty darn whipped. I think that the other two Flinn and Hopwil? are pretty whipped too. Now part of this could be from the position they were in following the attack on Rand. However, I think that their AS were able to Compel them and are in complete control.