Is the second half of the series what you envisioned?

[Arkelias]

This is not meant to be a criticism of the later books.  God knows there are a lot of valid complaints, but that's not what I wanted to discuss.

 

I always pictured that in the last few books armies of shadowspawn would come pouring out of the blight, and they'd be led by the forsaken and by new dreadlords. I pictured nation after nation falling as Rand struggled desperately to bring the surviving nations together to stem the tide.  I picture heroic battles and great deeds, the world pulling together to stave off ultimate destruction.

 

What I did not picture was three books of Perrin chasing Faile, Elayne trying to secure the throne of Andor, and Egwene marching endlessly towards the White Tower. 

 

Now we are nearing the end of the series.  Sanderson has told us that he needs three books to end the series, but I very much doubt we're going to see the war with the shadow I was looking for.

 

In three books, if they move like the last four, we'll barely see the world pull together unless its rushed.  I have a sneaking suspicion that Tarmon Gaidon is going to be the biggest letdown ever, simply because it won't be the culmination of a war with the shadow.  It will be more like the minor skirmish with the shadow.

 

The shadow will spill out of the blight in the last book, and the world will move up to stop them.  Armies will assemble, but most of that will involve endless skirt smoothing and bickering and less actual action or battles being fought.  I know, I'm such a boy but damn it I was promised a war when I started reading this series.  Where is it?

 

Every battle since book Dumais Wells has been a letdown.  The rest of the series since then has been the aforementioned endless skirt smoothing and bickering of petty noble houses.  I mean how important is Elayne being on the throne of Andor really?  Rand already controlled that nation, so getting her in there doesn't benefit him.

 

What happened to all the cool militaristic characters like Rhuarc?  Where are all the Aiel for that matter?  When was the last time we saw Melaine or Amys or Bair or Bael for more than a couple of pages?

 

Maybe I'm off base, but I don't like where the series has meandered and I'm wondering if Brandon will be able to bring it back on target.  I hope so.  I hope I'm wrong and the next three books fulfill my expectations.  Given the corner than RJ painted himself into I tend to doubt it though.  I think we're going to get a hasty ending =/

[Balefire to da face!]

You're an interesting fella Arkelias. I find myself looking at one of your posts and agreeing 100%, and then the next not at all. I am kind of split on this one.

 

I actually never expected the Blight to explode any time before true Tarmon Gaidon. In fact, the reason Knife of Dreams was so awsome was because I saw Tarmon Gaiden as a huge, unimaginable battle....and KoD actually started laying down the nuts and bolts for it. I knew TG wasn't just going to be a 1 on 1 with Rand vs. the DO, but it was amazing to see the actual details of TG fall into place. All the small battles that are going to happen to add up to TG. So no, I haven't been dissapointed that it hadn't happened yet, I am just impressed that it finally did.

 

HOWEVER, I completely agree with that a lot of what has happened is nothing like what I signed up for. Perrin chasing Faile for 3 books? Elayne and her monotony. Books worth of interesting, but ever so slow Rebel AS manuevering. Rand deciding that going into hiding instead of actually....you know...doing anything like bind the WT to him or deal with the ticking timebomb that is the BT. Mat dragging Tuon around for a couple of books(yeah, it's amusing...but wouldn't it be nice for something to actually..you know....happen?).

 

There have been some high points, like the Cleansing of Saidin, the overall eerie feeling of Crossroads of Twilight, the buildup to TG with KoD. And generally anything that has to do with Semi or Cadsuance just because they are such awsome characters. And even the boring stuff has redeeming value(it's tough to get all the pieces into place for TG without being a little slow) but it's hard to look at the first 6 books, and not critisize the last 4 up til KoD because even if they are decent writing, Jordan showed that he could do so much more in the first 6. I am not someone who thinks the first 6 books are the creator's gift to man, and the next four were totally without merit, but in general I think it's true.

[Arkelias]

Well bear in mind this is mostly the little boy in me crying out for more epic fight scenes =p

 

Honestly, my expectations are unfair.  I wanted the series to go a different direction than RJ, but he's the artist and I'm just the poor sap reading it.  I was just curious to see if people agreed with me.

 

I'm kind of a lightning rod for intense discussion, because I'm passionate in my beliefs and not afraid to argue about them.  I've liked your comments in all of the threads I've read, they're thought provoking and well written.

 

One of the things I love about this board is that I can express an unpopular opinion, and by and large people will disagree in a friendly way.  Its usually more a discussion than an argument.  This community rocks!

 

So anyone else agree or disagree with my stance?

[mb]

Rand getting Illian in Crown of Swords, Rand's battles with the Seanchan in Path of Daggers, Perrin's battle with the Shaido in Knife of Dreams, Elayne's rise to Andor's throne; those I saw/see as satisfactory.

 

For the next 3 (or more accurately last 2 since Gathering Storm will soon be released), Sanderson I think would try to stick as close to Robert Jordan's notes as possible.

The next 2 I imagine would show each of the nations preparations for Tarmon Gaidon.  Possibly a battle with (or a hunt for) Graendal in Gathering Storm; maybe similar to the one with Sammael in Crown of Swords or like the hunt for Rahvin in Fires of Heaven, or possibly a combination of the two events.

 

[OptimusPrime]

I agree about the Last Battle, I honestly cant see how it will be as satisfyingly epic as might be anticipated.

 

Id probably say the thing I imagined would be different is the interactions between the Ta'veren and the Forsaken. In the first half, the Forsakens objective was to establish positions of power. Some were found and eliminated before they sank in too deep, some managed to dig their claws in. All this was happening while Rand Mat and Perrin changed from villagers to adventurers and established their paths as Ta'veren. Fine.

 

The second half comes, Rand continues to make his big moves. He uses his influence to help nations survive the weather. First major big move was the Black Tower, eventually he Cleansed Saidin. Again, while this goes on he moves against Sammael, unknowingly meets Moridin and continues one of the best rivalries in the series. Fine. Mat and Perrin make smaller moves that eventually will bring things together, for example both have established individual connections to the Seanchan. Fine.

 

Throughout the first half I fantasized with the idea of the three Ta'veren being the Lights equivalent of the Chosen, that later on there would be a more obvious Forsaken vs Taveren thing. The Forsaken know exactly how important Mat and Perrin are, yet in the second half they show both the bare minimum attention. In KoD when Moridin tells the Forsaken that Mat and Perrin are primary objectives, I just thought "Well, this is a bit late." Sure, they have the let the Lord of Chaos rule order, but why dont they make any major moves against Mat and Perrin when even the Myrrdraal knew their importance from book one? I understand that the Forsaken are way overestimated, but I thought by now there would have been more Shadow attention on the other two Ta'veren, way before KoD.

[WWWwombat]

I think you guys are underestimating the amount of time it takes for trollocs to come pouring out of the blight.  When Slayer wanted to butcher the Two Rivers, he mobilized a lot of trollocs very quickly.  The blight has quieted down lately because the DO didn't want to galvanize mankind against him.  Look what he got out of his patience: the Borderlands stripped soldiers from the blight and sent them ona  wild goose chase for Rand.  I don't think it will take long to recruit dreadlords from the BT darkfriends and then start pumping trollocs out of every waygate that hasn't been destroyed.

[Muad Cheade]

To be honest, I like the latter books more than I liked the earlier ones. From TSR and on were my favorites. I think it's because they were on a global scale instead of just following the Emond Fielders.

 

It also makes sense. If Tarmon Gai'don was meant to be another Trolloc Wars, we'd need to know more about the other nations and the movers and shakers of those countries. That's what I liked about RJ. He knew some parts of the story wouldn't be "fun" but they had to be told and he wrote them.

 

I think the next two books are going to be The Empire Strikes Back-ish as in we're really gonna see the Shadow pull out it's big guns and take some hard shots at the Light. It's going to be rough but it's always darkest before the dawn.

[Braus]

When i think of huge huge huge numbers of trollocs marching out of the blight, i can just picture the battle at the manor in Tear... Channelers actually become a very very leathal weapon nowadays, with seanchan damane and rands deadly ashaman - and then there is the AS who are very used with the power, but doesnt seem to be that used using it as a weapon, but still.

 

Not even sure if im after that big of a fight, with traveling and all the channeling going on the normal fighting feels more and more useless :)

[Arkelias]

I was hoping we'd already seen the Empire Strikes back part of the series.  Rand has taken hard knock after hard knock, and so has the world.  It would be nice to see the heroes succeed at something for a change.  Saidin being cleansed was awesome!  I'm looking for more scenes like that.

 

Maude, as an author no scene in your novel needs to be boring.  It just doesn't.  You have control over that when you create the text.  You can give your reader information however and whenever you want.  We learned a ton about the world and the characters in many of the fun parts of the books.  Look at the first six books.  They ROCKED because they kept the story moving.

 

The issue people have with the second half of the books, or most that I've talked to, is the sheer number of characters who get a PoV.  If RJ had restricted the PoV he could have covered many of the same scenes without losing the reader, and the story wouldn't have moved so glacially.

 

Imagine if the series was fun from start to finish with very few slow parts.  To me that would have been an improvement over what we ended up with.  Too many later plot threads were drawn out and not all that useful.  Perrin chasing Faile wasn't needed.  How did that further the plot?  If it was to get Perrin to ally with the Seanchan he could have come up with a better way, or at least shortened the scenes some.

 

Elayne and the throne of Andor?  We didn't need that to be nearly as long as it was.  Why did we end up with scenes from Ellenia's point of view for gods sake?  Who cares what the minor nobles outside of Andor are plotting?  Next we'll end up hearing from random farmers about their next crop.  RJ tried to cram the entire world into his series, and while that's laudable it caused the series to lose focus and founder.

 

Not everyone feels this way, but the majority of people I know dropped the series after book six.  Those that contiuned hurled book 10 into the wall, if they didn't do so before then.  In case you can't tell I'm nearing the end of book 10 which is why I'm so vehement.

 

It is, without a doubt, the worst book I've ever read.  That's a topic for another thread though =p

[Arkelias]

When i think of huge huge huge numbers of trollocs marching out of the blight, i can just picture the battle at the manor in Tear... Channelers actually become a very very leathal weapon nowadays, with seanchan damane and rands deadly ashaman - and then there is the AS who are very used with the power, but doesnt seem to be that used using it as a weapon, but still.

 

Not even sure if im after that big of a fight, with traveling and all the channeling going on the normal fighting feels more and more useless :)

 

I hear you.  The one power should be the most important weapon, but most of the forsaken who excelled as generals are dead.  Who's going to lead the shadow's army?  Where are they going to get all their channelers?

 

If it comes from the BT that really cheapens things.  Why didn't they recruit and train their own?  Also, it means Rand created his own enemy which I think sucks.

 

Also, what about someone being turned to the Shadow?  They set this possibility up early on, but its never been used.  Why haven't we seen some powerful GOOD channelers converted to the shadow?  That's what I was expecting.

 

Logain is kidnapped and converted, and now he leads the Shadow's army.  Or Elayne.  Or Egwene.  Or Nyneave.  Or someone we care about!

[Luckers]

I hear you.  The one power should be the most important weapon, but most of the forsaken who excelled as generals are dead.  Who's going to lead the shadow's army?  Where are they going to get all their channelers?

 

Demandred, the most hailed of their generals, is still around. Besides what does channeling have to do with being a general?

 

If it comes from the BT that really cheapens things.  Why didn't they recruit and train their own?  Also, it means Rand created his own enemy which I think sucks.

 

They have recruited their own. We know through, a) Ishamael did it in the Trolloc Wars, and was able to equel the Tower then. b) Ishamael was active fifteen years prior to the begining if the books and knew the Dragon was reborn. c) Taim. d) Liandrin's comments that she did not feel she was a wilder despite channeling for more than a year before approaching the Tower, and that she was a darkfriend before approaching the Tower.

 

Also, what about someone being turned to the Shadow?  They set this possibility up early on, but its never been used.  Why haven't we seen some powerful GOOD channelers converted to the shadow?  That's what I was expecting.

 

I don't doubt this will still happen. There is some suggestion that it already has.

 

[Arkelias]

Good points luckers!  I'd forgotten Demandred's comments about being a general towards the end of book 9.  I was thinking Sammael mostly.  Demandred could definitely get the job done.

 

As far as what being a channeller has to do with being a general, if you want to counter Rand you need to equal the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.  You need to fight the way they do or you'll get crushed.

 

Your points on Ishamael training people are good.  I hadn't considered that angle.  I was just hoping we'd see more of the PoV of the forsaken gathering their massive army in secret.  The forces of the light might not know about it, but I thought it would be cool to show more of that to the reader.

 

Cut the Ellenia chapters and some of the Sevanna chapters and give me some evil Shadow army of death chapters!

 

Of course with three more books looming there is every chance I'll get my wish.  I'm just not very patient =p

[WWWwombat]

Book 10 was probably my least favorite of the series.  KoD more than made up for it, however.

[Majsju]

How did Perrins chase for Faile further the plot?

 

The Shaido got beaten to a bloody pulp, and those who survived/avoided capture are now heading back to the waste.

It brought Tam and a shipload of TR folks into the action.

It has placed Perrin and his gand in a position where they will soon meet Galad and his renegade whitecloaks, which will result in the discovery of who Morgase actually is, Perrin facing the two whitecloaks who hates him with a passion, Berelain very likely meeting with her prophecised man in white, the Seanchans stockpile of forkroot being greatly reduced...

Berelain finally stopped her chase after Perrin.

Masemas "army" was destroyed.

Perrin is now in fairly close proximity to Rand in Arad Doman, as well as the borderlnaders in Andor (which might be where he needs to go for his second rescue of Rand)

 

And that is just from the top of my head, there are a couple of more things.

 

WOT is a complex story, one of the most complex in the history of fantasy. To make it work as such, you can not have very third chapter involving some kind of epic battle.

[Luckers]

As far as what being a channeller has to do with being a general, if you want to counter Rand you need to equal the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.  You need to fight the way they do or you'll get crushed.

 

Well, consider, roughly one percent of the population can channel. Being insanely conservative that means there are around 200,000 channelers out there, of which 5,000 are affiliated. Thats in the Westlands alone, and given travelling they are no limited.

 

The Shadow has fairly significant pools to draw from.

 

 

[Arath Faringal]

Cut the Ellenia chapters and some of the Sevanna chapters and give me some evil Shadow army of death chapters!

 

Ummm ... who?

 

Elayne?  Elaida?  Ilyena?

 

As far as converting someone to lead the shadow army, what sense does that make?  Say for example that Egwene was converted.  She could do far more damage to the forces of the Light if she remained in control of the Aes Sedai forces, rather than leading a trolloc army.  Same with any of the other channeler.  Betrayel from within is a lot worse than an attack from the front.

 

Having chapters concerning an evil army of death before Tarmon Gai'don itself wouldn't do anything to improve the story anyway.  We'd all know exactly what was coming, and there would be no shock value when the trolloc hordes finally arrived.

[WWWwombat]

Cut the Ellenia chapters and some of the Sevanna chapters and give me some evil Shadow army of death chapters!

 

Ummm ... who?

 

Elayne?  Elaida?  Ilenya?

 

As far as converting someone to lead the shadow army, what sense does that make?  Say for example that Egwene was converted.  She could do far more damage to the forces of the Light if she remained in control of the Aes Sedai forces, rather than leading a trolloc army.  Same with any of the other channeler.  Betrayel from within is a lot worse than an attack from the front.

 

Having chapters concerning an evil army of death before Tarmon Gai'don itself wouldn't do anything to improve the story anyway.  We'd all know exactly what was coming, and there would be no shock value when the trolloc hordes finally arrived.

 

Elenia Sarand.  He doesn't like political intrigue and thinks it should be cut.

[Arkelias]

Book 10 was probably my least favorite of the series.  KoD more than made up for it, however.

 

This is so true!  Part of my current negativity comes from being deep in the bowels of book 10.  But I know the payoff is coming!  Soon, KoD which rocked!!!

[Arkelias]

How did Perrins chase for Faile further the plot?

 

The Shaido got beaten to a bloody pulp, and those who survived/avoided capture are now heading back to the waste.

It brought Tam and a shipload of TR folks into the action.

It has placed Perrin and his gand in a position where they will soon meet Galad and his renegade whitecloaks, which will result in the discovery of who Morgase actually is, Perrin facing the two whitecloaks who hates him with a passion, Berelain very likely meeting with her prophecised man in white, the Seanchans stockpile of forkroot being greatly reduced...

Berelain finally stopped her chase after Perrin.

Masemas "army" was destroyed.

Perrin is now in fairly close proximity to Rand in Arad Doman, as well as the borderlnaders in Andor (which might be where he needs to go for his second rescue of Rand)

 

And that is just from the top of my head, there are a couple of more things.

 

WOT is a complex story, one of the most complex in the history of fantasy. To make it work as such, you can not have very third chapter involving some kind of epic battle.

 

I think RJ could have accomplished all those goals with a more interesting storyline.  He's done it in other parts of the books, especially earlier ones.  Do you disagree about that plot thread being too long and boring?  I know some people must like it, just not me.

 

I don't think every third chapter needs to be an epic battle.  I do, however, want more of them than we've seen.  The world is in chaos, wars are everywhere.  We should see more battles.  Part of that is my personal preference, of course.

 

The WoT is very complicated.  I think its overly complicated, more than it needed to be.  I'll go back to the Ellenia chapters in book 10.  What purpose do they serve?  This is true of many of the side characters.  Those chapters could have been cut entirely and we'd have lost little, if anything.

[Arkelias]

As far as what being a channeller has to do with being a general, if you want to counter Rand you need to equal the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.  You need to fight the way they do or you'll get crushed.

 

Well, consider, roughly one percent of the population can channel. Being insanely conservative that means there are around 200,000 channelers out there, of which 5,000 are affiliated. Thats in the Westlands alone, and given travelling they are no limited.

 

The Shadow has fairly significant pools to draw from.

 

 

 

I didn't realize there were that many.  I remember a scene where they spoke of the ability to channel being culled, and that those with the power and increasingly rare.  I thought it was more like 1 in a 1000, but I have nothing to back that up really.  It was just my perception.

[Arkelias]

Cut the Ellenia chapters and some of the Sevanna chapters and give me some evil Shadow army of death chapters!

 

Ummm ... who?

 

Elayne?  Elaida?  Ilyena?

 

As far as converting someone to lead the shadow army, what sense does that make?  Say for example that Egwene was converted.  She could do far more damage to the forces of the Light if she remained in control of the Aes Sedai forces, rather than leading a trolloc army.  Same with any of the other channeler.  Betrayel from within is a lot worse than an attack from the front.

 

Having chapters concerning an evil army of death before Tarmon Gai'don itself wouldn't do anything to improve the story anyway.  We'd all know exactly what was coming, and there would be no shock value when the trolloc hordes finally arrived.

 

See?  You didn't even know who Ellenia IS.  Clearly we don't need her PoV.  She's one of the rebels who are opposing Elayne in Andor. 

 

It wouldn't improve the story?  Sure it would.  Those chapters would be interesting, rather than the endless drivel we were given in book ten.  Seeing the Shadow gather its strength would build tension, because you'd know as the reader that the heroes would have to find some way of dealing with them.

 

Are you telling me that council meetings between characters we don't know and care less about are better than that?  You're welcome to your opinon, but that's certainly not mine. 

[Arkelias]

Cut the Ellenia chapters and some of the Sevanna chapters and give me some evil Shadow army of death chapters!

 

Ummm ... who?

 

Elayne?  Elaida?  Ilenya?

 

As far as converting someone to lead the shadow army, what sense does that make?  Say for example that Egwene was converted.  She could do far more damage to the forces of the Light if she remained in control of the Aes Sedai forces, rather than leading a trolloc army.  Same with any of the other channeler.  Betrayel from within is a lot worse than an attack from the front.

 

Having chapters concerning an evil army of death before Tarmon Gai'don itself wouldn't do anything to improve the story anyway.  We'd all know exactly what was coming, and there would be no shock value when the trolloc hordes finally arrived.

 

Elenia Sarand.  He doesn't like political intrigue and thinks it should be cut.

 

I do like political intrigue. I love it.  Read some Michael Stackpole if you want to see how that should be done.  One of the major things that you need to make intrigue work is an investment in the outcome.

 

Why would I care which of Elayne's three enemies is in charge?  They will all lose to her in the end when she takes the throne.  Elenia has no real role to play, and nothing she has done or will do makes has the slightest impact on the larger story.

 

If I'm wrong please show me how.

[Majsju]

 

I think RJ could have accomplished all those goals with a more interesting storyline.  He's done it in other parts of the books, especially earlier ones.  Do you disagree about that plot thread being too long and boring?  I know some people must like it, just not me.

 

 

 

Yes, I very much disagree. Too long? It is 21 chapters spread out over three books. In the same three books, Mat and Tuon has 27 chapters, in an arc where one might say that even less happens.

Boring? Not when you look at what RJ wants to do with this arc, and how it works in the greater story.

 

The WoT is very complicated.  I think its overly complicated, more than it needed to be.  I'll go back to the Ellenia chapters in book 10.  What purpose do they serve?  This is true of many of the side characters.  Those chapters could have been cut entirely and we'd have lost little, if anything.

 

Chapter, not chapters. Elenia has one chapter in COT, and she does not even get the full chapter, as part of it is a Hanlon POV.

 

It shows a bit about how the situation is in the rebel camp. And perhaps more important, it gives the first hint about Sylvase possibly being more than she appears. Without this chapter, Sylvases action in KOD would not stand out the way it does.

[Arkelias]

Yes, I very much disagree. Too long? It is 21 chapters spread out over three books. In the same three books, Mat and Tuon has 27 chapters, in an arc where one might say that even less happens.

Boring? Not when you look at what RJ wants to do with this arc, and how it works in the greater story.

 

The primary difference is that I enjoyed reading about Mat and Tuon.  I did not enjoy reading about Perrin and Faile.  The interplay with the camp believing he's slept with Berelain, and with Alliandre believing Faile has slept with Roland didn't grab me.  Nor did any part involving Masema.  They just weren't that interesting, and I didn't care about the outcome. 

 

Boring is boring.  I don't get to the end of five hundred pages and say 'man, that was boring.  But now that I understand the relevance it wasn't boring'.  Either it was interesting or it wasn't.  I'll reference the reviews at Amazon again. People hated the Perrin storyline almost as much as the Elayne one.  If you doubt it I'd be happy to clip some of them and link them here.

 

Contrast it to Mat and Tuon or Egwene and the White Tower.  Both of those DID grab me, and I loved them.

 

Chapter, not chapters. Elenia has one chapter in COT, and she does not even get the full chapter, as part of it is a Hanlon POV.

 

It shows a bit about how the situation is in the rebel camp. And perhaps more important, it gives the first hint about Sylvase possibly being more than she appears. Without this chapter, Sylvases action in KOD would not stand out the way it does.

 

It was a long chapter.  Too long.  It follows the plot with Elayne which follows the plot with Faile which follows the plot with Perrin in book 10.  So, out of the first 17 chapters I enjoyed three, the ones with Mat. You can say they are relevant to the greater story, and they are.

 

They are still filled with details that could have been presented in a more interesting way.  This is what I mean by the books being overly complicated.  Too many uninteresting characters get a 30+ page chapter or more to present one little detail that will be relevant later.  It would have been far better to find a different way to include a detail like that, rather than bore the reader with an endless parade of PoV characters we'll never see again.

 

Make no mistake the reader is bored.  Not all of them, as you obviously liked it.  Just the majority.  Take a look at the Eye of the World reviews at Amazon.  Then take a look at the Crossroads of Twilight reviews.  You'll see the difference, I'm sure.

 

The series is a whole is great, but that doesn't mean mistakes weren't made along the way.  A good editor could have cleaned up the latter books a lot.  Maybe to you the latter books were all fine as is, but you are in the minority in that opinion.

[Tyrell]

I always thought the Perrin+Faile stuff was the worst but on a reread I have to say it's Elayne + the andor related stuff. And basically every time there are rival groups of female channellers in a room together hissing at eachother like a bunch of cats getting ready for a fight.

 

If I want actual political intrigue I'll read A Song of Ice and Fire. And while I appreciate the whole theme of communication / co-operation (or rather the conspicuous lack thereof) it's taken to the level of farce in some scenes; I'd rather Rand just took the male CK and glassed the whole WT + Andor + Seafolk and have the world burn than have to read about more of their hissy fits.