The Red Asha'men--- darkfriends or non-darkfriends?

[Pandemonium]

There are several different ways to read into this argument.  Do you think Taim will stock his warders in Tar Valon with his darkfriend cronies or with those Asha'man that are not loyal to him?

 

If he stocks them with his cronies then he might be able to create more chaos in amongst the White Tower civil war.  He could have orders for his cronies to sabotage as many things as they can in Tar Valon.  However, the counter-argument is that his cronies can create chaos in Tar Valon even without being bonded to the reds. 

 

If Taim only allows his non-darkfriend supporters to bond with the reds, then he has cleared out some of his potential rivals in the black tower.  Clearing out those not loyal to him allows him even more control of Asha'man.  It also lessens the army that Logain or Rand could muster up against Taim should a showdown occur.  Also, the deal with the reds is bound to cause chaos no matter who is bonded to them.

 

I'm not sure what to expect here, but it might be a good idea for Taim to slip at least one of his cronies in with the reds.  That way he has more control over that operation.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

[zxg15]

Wow, I honestly never even thought of this.  OK, well off the top of my head I would expect there to be some of both.

 

I'm going to need to go and re-read the KoD epilogue... back soon...

[Luckers]

My thought is that given that Taim doesn't have a great many followers (100 out of 1000) that he probably won't be willing to lose too many to the Reds--though I do agree that he'll probably send at least one or two.

 

On a more abstract level too, I've always felt that the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" have been more about spreading dissension amongst the light--as per Rand getting angry at Reds bonding (forcibly?) asha'men--than efforts by the shadow to hurt the light.

 

The only other thing that may play its part is whether Taim is aware that men wrapped in saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond--and he very well may be given his exposure to the Forsaken--but if he isn't then i say he'd not put even one of his men amongst the bonded.

[Kaznen]

The only other thing that may play its part is whether Taim is aware that men wrapped in saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond--and he very well may be given his exposure to the Forsaken--but if he isn't then i say he'd not put even one of his men amongst the bonded.

 

TAim said the AS could bond who they wanted to, as long as they asked, and the reacion the AS had to him at the end of KoD makes me doupt they will choose Taim's supporters.

[Luckers]

This is true--though you never know. Not every one of the hundred could be leering madmen, and they are the only full Asha'men on the grounds, so the Aes Sedai would probably want to start with them.

[zxg15]

Also, there is a pretty good chance that at least a few of the reds are BA so they may choose DF Asha'men or go for young ones and try to turn them to the dark one

[Luckers]

Also, there is a pretty good chance that at least a few of the reds are BA so they may choose DF Asha'men or go for young ones and try to turn them to the dark one

 

Any particular reason you say that, or just generic 'any Aes Sedai might be...'?

[zxg15]

Well, there are 26 BA known by name plus several known but not by name and though there is no hard evidence to back it up, I believe there are 2-3 time that number in total so that about 60-100 out of approximately 1200-1300 Aes Sedai (NS ch3) though other references put it closer to 900 (LoC ch7.)  I can't find any thing in the books to suggest how many Asha'man the reds intend to bond other than that 51 sisters were bonded against their will and there were 5 sisters with Pevara and she said they planed to bond 3-4 at most each, so somewhere between 10 and 51 would be the closest estimate I could back up, though I expect it will start at the lower end and increase as more reds are convinced.  So obviously the numbers are not at all explicitly defined, but taking all the uncertainty into account, the range of the number of BA which should bond Asha'man purely on a mathematical basis is roughly 0.5-2.  Of course to get a better picture of the situation we would need some information regarding whether Taim wants any of his cronies bonded and the same for the BA.

 

So, after looking through the books and encyclopedia wot, I am significantly less confidant in my previous position, but as I said, the most important factor is what Taim and the BA want.

 

*edited to add info (basically a totally new post)

[Ahaz Flagg]

The only other thing that may play its part is whether Taim is aware that men wrapped in saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond--and he very well may be given his exposure to the Forsaken--but if he isn't then i say he'd not put even one of his men amongst the bonded.

 

TAim said the AS could bond who they wanted to, as long as they asked, and the reacion the AS had to him at the end of KoD makes me doupt they will choose Taim's supporters.

 

I do not beleive that is what Taim said at all, if I rember he said they could ask any who do not wear the DRAGON!! And no one could refuse who was asked.  That should be a key to this theory right there.  And also remember that, per the converastion between Pevera and Tarna, they most certinaly will not be allowed in or near the white tower.

[Kaznen]

The only other thing that may play its part is whether Taim is aware that men wrapped in saidin are immune to the compulsive effects of the bond--and he very well may be given his exposure to the Forsaken--but if he isn't then i say he'd not put even one of his men amongst the bonded.

 

TAim said the AS could bond who they wanted to, as long as they asked, and the reacion the AS had to him at the end of KoD makes me doupt they will choose Taim's supporters.

 

I do not beleive that is what Taim said at all, if I rember he said they could ask any who do not wear the DRAGON!! And no one could refuse who was asked.   That should be a key to this theory right there.  And also remember that, per the converastion between Pevera and Tarna, they most certinaly will not be allowed in or near the white tower.

 

That was what the SAS where told.  All the AM who are not in Taim's crew were bonded to AS in one way or another.

 

Taim said they could bond anyone they asked, provided the guy in question said yes, up to 51 men.

 

He then went on with a "Let the Lord of Chaos rule.  MUHHAHAHAHA."  And the last line implied the AS wouldn't be asking anyone in that room. 

[dholm]

Taim doesn't give any conditions whatsoever. He simply says, "Very well," and tells them to "ask who will let you bond them".

 

Rand is the one to give conditions. Only 47 maximum, no one who wears the Dragon, but any other man asked can't refuse.

[comradekari]

Hmmm...well, if I were Mazrim Taim...I'd probably want one of my lesser followers bonded, just to have a spy in the tower that can report directly to him.  That would probably be it, he wouldn't want to lose too many of the people in his camp. And losing a few Logain supporters would probably be in his benefit and would make his plotting easier.  He'd probably just place his spy right in the path of the red sisters, and then tell his other men to just refuse to be bonded.

[OptimusPrime]

I got the impression that theyre Darkfriends. I just dont think Taim would have given Logain/Rands Ashaman the opportunity to say no to being bonded. Also, what would be funny about the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" old saying in the context used? Unless Taim was referring to the Dark Ones command theres nothing funny going on here. Nothing that compares to Taim mentioning the orders he was given, while stood with people he was rodered to do it against, with a group of men who know the command and love the fact that Taim is rubbing it in their faces and they dont have a clue. Its like Taims saying "Im a Darkfriend, Im saying this in front of you but you still dont know. Hahaha."

[mb]

It seems doubtful that the Reds would ask anyone that was in that room, except perhaps that guy who got his head struck and probably ones that did not laugh.

Slight chance of the Reds asking others in the building.

 

I imagine most of the ones the Reds would ask would be at the level of Dedicated. (weak enough to be controlled yet strong enough to be of use)

 

[OptimusPrime]

It seems doubtful that the Reds would ask anyone that was in that room, except perhaps that guy who got his head struck and probably ones that did not laugh.

Slight chance of the Reds asking others in the building.

 

I imagine most of the ones the Reds would ask would be at the level of Dedicated. (weak enough to be controlled yet strong enough to be of use)

 

 

Wasnt Taim with the whole lot of Red Ashaman when he said it?

[Kaznen]

It seems doubtful that the Reds would ask anyone that was in that room, except perhaps that guy who got his head struck and probably ones that did not laugh.

 

 

They all laughed.

[mb]

Wasnt Taim with the whole lot of Red Ashaman when he said it?

Some of Taim's faction could have been in other rooms.  The paragraph directly before the dialogue speculates that.

 

They all laughed.

The passage does not tell that.  It only says 'the chamber erupted with men's laughter'; many of them for sure, all of them is uncertain.

 

[Kaznen]

Wasnt Taim with the whole lot of Red Ashaman when he said it?

Some of Taim's faction could have been in other rooms.  The paragraph directly before the dialogue speculates that.

But Taim would have had all his AM with him as a display of strength.  He has always been telling Rand about how fast the BT is growing and how soon they can take on the WT directly.  Showing as many of the full ranked AM as possible to the AS toshow how powerful the BT (Taim) has become.

 

They all laughed.

The passage does not tell that.  It only says 'the chamber erupted with men's laughter'; many of them for sure, all of them is uncertain.

Until recently the only people at the BT who could promote men up the ranks were Taim, and Rand.  Except for Logain, Taim only promoted his own men up the up to AM (Dashiva problally used Compulsion to get his pin).

 

So all the AM in that chamber were Taim's men.  The other AM wre with Logain and Rand.

[Phariah]

well if i remember correct at the time the Red showed up to the BT Taim's faction was mostly there seeing as Logain took men to Arad Doman and the men w/ Rand going to the meeting w/ Semi

and Taim had just raised a large grp of AM  and had a large group of dedicated in his special classes. it definately seemed Taim kept his AM away from Rand