Mat's Luck and Channeling

[OptimusPrime]

The only way I would accept it being Ta'veren without it being specifically mentioned in the books is if Rand and Mat played dice and Rand won, and Mats thoughts explained to us there and then that his luck isnt acting normally. And only if it was a friendly game with nothing at all hanging on anyones victory, because if Rands survival was placed on a game of dice you know he would win, even if his dice were weighted to lose and the opponents were weighted to win.

 

Moiraine seemed to know enough about Ta'veren and all she said was that they alter chance, not luck. Chance can be negative; Mats kind of luck, which is being proposed as universal Ta'veren luck, is positive only. And Mats luck doesnt make things more likely to happen like pigeons flying into each other, it makes things turn out in his favor when there are no deciding factors involved. There is a difference.

[dholm]

Obviously there is a difference, but then, we don't know whether Rand or Perrin are lucky in the same manner Mat is, because we've never seen them gamble. Look at what Lan said of Artur Hawkwing: At times, every roll of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. Pretty much like Mat's luck.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Thats like me saying I got lucky after buying a rabbits foot keychain or whatever, it is not actual proof, it is just Mat trying to justify why he is luck all of a sudden, but as said before he became Ta'veren around the same time he got the dagger

It is not a justification. He just says that his luck didn't start after he became ta'veren, but after Shadar Logoth.

 

Have to agree with Ares.  I don't have access to TDR at the moment but vaguely recall the chapter "The First Toss" or "The First Ship".  In it, Matt does a lot of thinking about where his luck came from.  He notes that he was always kind of lucky.  He remembers that he became extremely lucky after picking up the Dagger.  He then considers that he became unusually / hugely lucky after being healed by the AS. 

[The Dragon Reborn]

Rand's being taveren pulled the 'bubble of evil' to him causing the fog allowing Fain to get close enough to slice and disappear before anyone knew what was happening

 

It's been a while since I read that scene but my impression from that was that Fain himself created the fog and used it to hide as he could attack Rand...

[Hybrid]

Obviously there is a difference, but then, we don't know whether Rand or Perrin are lucky in the same manner Mat is, because we've never seen them gamble. Look at what Lan said of Artur Hawkwing: At times, every roll of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. Pretty much like Mat's luck.

For reference, since the quote you posted was buried about 6 pages back:

“Perhaps,” Moiraine said. “Perhaps not. No one knows anything about ta’veren as strong as Rand.” For just a moment she sounded vexed at not knowing. “Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta’veren of whom any writings remain. And Hawkwing was in no way as strong as Rand.”

“It is said,” Lan put in, “that there were times when people in the same room with Hawkwing spoke truth when they meant to lie, made decisions they had not even known they were contemplating. Times when every toss of the dice, every turn of the cards, went his way. But only times.”

At least extend the same skepticism towards this quote that you extend towards Mat's memories.  Lan says "It is said," meaning he has it basically on hearsay, and far-removed from the original source at that.  Rumor, basically.  Events in the book have shown how inaccurate rumor can be after barely any time has passed at all.  It's been generations since Hawkwing lived.

 

In any case, the possibility of Mat's luck being due to his ta'vereness is there, but there isn't anything even remotely linking them together.  There is, however, something linking his luck with the dagger - his own memories.  And he nevers thinks that he forgot if he was lucky before - that does not suggest to me that his memory is faulty in this regard.

[Alghar Khan]

At least extend the same skepticism towards this quote that you extend towards Mat's memories.  Lan says "It is said," meaning he has it basically on hearsay, and far-removed from the original source at that.  Rumor, basically.  Events in the book have shown how inaccurate rumor can be after barely any time has passed at all.  It's been generations since Hawkwing lived.

What a coincidence then that a ta'veren such as Mat just happened to be lucky. And even before he held the Dagger. "Events in the book have shown" how accurate rumor can be after such a long time.

 

In any case, the possibility of Mat's luck being due to his ta'vereness is there, but there isn't anything even remotely linking them together.  There is, however, something linking his luck with the dagger - his own memories.  And he nevers thinks that he forgot if he was lucky before - that does not suggest to me that his memory is faulty in this regard.

There isn't anything that says that Mat's luck, or the tumbling dice for that matter, must be linked to the Dagger. It/they could be, but it/they might not be. There are other possible explanations.

[OptimusPrime]

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Fain didnt have to escape Rand, Rand never hunted him on either occassion. In Caihein it was Rand's being taveren that allowed Fain to stab him. Far Madding they never encountered each other and Rand didnt know if he was there

 

How is Rand being Ta'veren the reason Fain could stab him?

 

Rand's being taveren pulled the 'bubble of evil' to him causing the fog allowing Fain to get close enough to slice and disappear before anyone knew what was happening

 

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I think that this type of luck (avoiding death by Rand twice, plus the hundred thousand gold crown bounty) is very reminiscent of Mat's luck in that it helps out the individual, and (potentially) not any one around him.

 

I personally think Fain is supposed to do something necessary for the Lights victory, and that if anything is causing Fain to survive other than his own instincts its the Pattern.

 

Agreed, I think it has to do with something reminescent with rand's wounds reacting destructively to each other

 

Thats a good point actually. Rands first wound might have affected him more if not for the conflict with the dagger wound like Damer Flynn said. I still think Fain has some higher purpose other than that though, I reckon he will be involved in Shaidar or Moridins downfall. Good observation though, I can agree how Rands Ta'veren caused it. Rand wouldn't have let Fain stab him if he wasnt distracted by the bubble of evil, yet he may well have benefited from being stabbed in a roundabout way. Not in the short term but in the long term.

[Durinax]

I would also like to point out mat could be pointing at the dagger and saying this is where my luck is from because he cannot find any other reason. This could be because he does not know when he became taveren.

 

BTW in tar valon his luck could have been because the pattern needed mat alive (and he needed lots of cash to keep him alive and eating enough). And at other times to keep important people alive (super gals).

 

Also thanks for the praise Optimus

[Phariah]

Thats like me saying I got lucky after buying a rabbits foot keychain or whatever, it is not actual proof, it is just Mat trying to justify why he is luck all of a sudden, but as said before he became Ta'veren around the same time he got the dagger

It is not a justification. He just says that his luck didn't start after he became ta'veren, but after Shadar Logoth.

 

Have to agree with Ares.  I don't have access to TDR at the moment but vaguely recall the chapter "The First Toss" or "The First Ship".  In it, Matt does a lot of thinking about where his luck came from.  He notes that he was always kind of lucky.  He remembers that he became extremely lucky after picking up the Dagger.  He then considers that he became unusually / hugely lucky after being healed by the AS. 

it is Mat lookin for justification when he makes that out of context statement,

when he makes that quote ,he is on the run leaving TV(he had a DF channeler/or Black Ajah { really Lanfear } and the Amyrlin Seat both agressively question him). he just wants to get away from everything, and he will after he delivers Elaynes letter

he than goes on a gambling high *he won again, and it was as if a fever gripped him* page 343 TDR  than *Mat visited another money changer-or perhaps two; the fever seemed to cloud his brain as badly as his memories of the past were clouded- * page 344 TDR

ok so he is a young man on the run and has a gambling adrenaline rush/high going than boom..pages 344-345 "the dark one's own luck" another man growled"

*Mat was scarcely aware of moving before he had the bulky man by the colllar, hauling him to his feet, slamming him back against the wall " don't u say that!" he snarled "don't ever say that!" the man blinked down at him in astonishment;he was a full head taller than Mat*

"I..I..I don't like anybody saying things like that about me. I'm no darkfriend!"burn me, not the dark one's luck.not that! oh,light,did that bloody dagger really do something to me?

In any case, the possibility of Mat's luck being due to his ta'vereness is there, but there isn't anything even remotely linking them together.  There is, however, something linking his luck with the dagger - his own memories.  And he nevers thinks that he forgot if he was lucky before - that does not suggest to me that his memory is faulty in this regard.

ya so Matt in a panic after being accused of having the dark one's own luck makes that comment, thats really reliable. but than right after that he makes another revelation..page 346 thinkin about giving silver pence to a serving girl

" not worth keeping? maybe they weren't.light, I'm rich! I am bloody rich! maybe it was something the Aes Sedai did. something they did healing me. by accident,maybe. that could be it. better that than the other. those bloody Aes Sedai must have done it to me."

ok so by the fact he just said it was the Aes Sedai doing something to him when he was healed gives just as much proof it was channeling/healing that caused his luck as the dagger theory. his own statement.

than u have his most honest revelation page 346 TDR * wherever his luck tonight had come from, he did not mean to lose all that gold *

which goes to show he has no idea, he is floundering/guessing

so with no fact ,dagger theory still fails

 

[kamros]

i agree pariah.

[Durinax]

nice quotes phariah

[a pale tanned lover]

Good points Phariah. Also it could be said that the dagger stopped Mats luck from developing, since it was around the same time that Perrin started sensing wolves, and Rand started channeling, so until he was healed of the dagger consuming him by the Aes Sedai his luck would have been stemmed.

[OptimusPrime]

So Mats luck is now supposedly some mistake the Aes Sedai made when Healing him?

[dholm]

Phariah's point is that it is just as supported as the dagger as the culprit.

[Phariah]

thanks but i just used what we were saying an tryd to focus it :-[

 

[kamros]

So Mats luck is now supposedly some mistake the Aes Sedai made when Healing him?

 

I took it as that when the dagger was gone his luck increased, so like A Pale tanned lover said, it could have been that the dagger was suppressing mats luck.

[Mr Ares]

It is a single quote and we have no evidence that Mat is correct.

One quote for the dagger is one more than quotes linking it to ta'veren, and there is also no evidence he is wrong.

 

Rand's being taveren pulled the 'bubble of evil' to him causing the fog allowing Fain to get close enough to slice and disappear before anyone knew what was happening

It's been a while since I read that scene but my impression from that was that Fain himself created the fog and used it to hide as he could attack Rand...

No, it was a bubble of evil. Confirmation comes in the glossary to PoD.

 

There isn't anything that says that Mat's luck, or the tumbling dice for that matter, must be linked to the Dagger. It/they could be, but it/they might not be. There are other possible explanations.

But there are quotes in the books to link tthe dagger and the luck, and none to say they are not linked, or that the luck is ta'veren. So, one side has evidence, the other doesn't.

 

I would also like to point out mat could be pointing at the dagger and saying this is where my luck is from because he cannot find any other reason. This could be because he does not know when he became taveren.

But he knows he is ta'veren. So it is curious that he never links the two. Might almost make one think they are unrelated.

 

it is Mat lookin for justification when he makes that out of context statement,

No, it isn't. He thinks that he had always won more than he lost, but "there had been times, with Hurin, and in Shienar, when six or eight tosses in a row won for him." Later he thinks "Oh, Light, did that bloody dagger really do something to me?", then a little later still, "But somehow, his memories from Emond's Field did not show him as lucky as he had been since leaving...But it was not just since leaving the Two Rivers that he had become lucky. The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth." Two chapters before he assures the girls that he make make enough from his dice to keep him going, and tells them that his gambling with Hurin was only for coppers, then not even that. So it is clearly established that Mat is lucky and that the dagger is responsible. Across several quotes. The one that says he became lucky since taking the dagger, that is not a justification of anything. It is a simple statement of fact, he got lucky after taking the dagger. He does not say the dagger had anything to do with it. He questions the dagger's role in doing something to him, he doesn't say it was the dagger.

 

"not worth keeping? maybe they weren't.light, I'm rich! I am bloody rich! maybe it was something the Aes Sedai did. something they did healing me. by accident,maybe. that could be it. better that than the other. those bloody Aes Sedai must have done it to me."

That is Mat trying to put the cause down as something else. Earlier, he wasn't. Now, he is, something other than the dagger. He tries to convince himself it wasn't the dagger. Never that it was, yet he never makes any link with ta'veren. He tries to blame it on the AS, not the dagger, which he steers away from, never ta'veren, which does not even merit a mention.

 

Phariah's point is that it is just as supported as the dagger as the culprit.

And that is wrong, because we have more support for the dagger than for any other theory. He tries to blame something other than the dagger, but that is really the only thing with any support behind it. Anything else is unsupported.

[Alghar Khan]

Combine Hawkwing's luck with RJ's blog.

And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.  It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

Gives us reason to expect some ta'veren to be lucky. Mat has been lucky for quite some time. That his luck happens to coincide with several other events does not give us proof of a connection. He was lucky before the Dagger, he got luckier as time went on. The Dagger suppressed his luck, and it even made him severely sick. Before he got healed from the effects, he had already blown the Horn. If anything made him luckier than ta'veren-lucky, then it could well have been the Horn.

[Mr Ares]

Gives us reason to expect some ta'veren to be lucky.

But not to link Mat's luck with ta'veren. We have been given no reason to do so. We have been given reason to link the dagger and the luck.

He was lucky before the Dagger, he got luckier as time went on.

The gaining and losing of the dagger coincide with the two jumps in his luck.

The Dagger suppressed his luck

No, it didn't. He got luckier right after he got it. He was lucky when dicing with Hurin, and in Shienar. Where is this "suppressed" luck?

If anything made him luckier than ta'veren-lucky, then it could well have been the Horn.

Except the first jump came before the Horn. It came after the dagger. He got the dagger, he got luckier. He was Healed, he got luckier still. Two jumps in his luck, both times relating to the dagger. There is no getting around that.

[kamros]

Gives us reason to expect some ta'veren to be lucky.

But not to link Mat's luck with ta'veren. We have been given no reason to do so. We have been given reason to link the dagger and the luck.

He was lucky before the Dagger, he got luckier as time went on.

The gaining and losing of the dagger coincide with the two jumps in his luck.

The Dagger suppressed his luck

No, it didn't. He got luckier right after he got it. He was lucky when dicing with Hurin, and in Shienar. Where is this "suppressed" luck?

If anything made him luckier than ta'veren-lucky, then it could well have been the Horn.

Except the first jump came before the Horn. It came after the dagger. He got the dagger, he got luckier. He was Healed, he got luckier still. Two jumps in his luck, both times relating to the dagger. There is no getting around that.

 

The suppressed luck he was talking about is the fact that Mat's luck increased right after he was healed. Why would his luck increase soo much right after being healed of the dagger unless it was actually keeping his luck down?

 

how would the fact that the second jump in luck that came after he was healed of it be at all an argument FOR the dagger and not against it?

[Durinax]

in shienar he was healed a bit of the dagger, so this can be used to argue for the dagger suppressing his luck, since even a partial healing would lift the side effects a bit

[OptimusPrime]

Mats luck was better after he got the dagger and then better again after the Healing. How many times must we run in this circle? Mat got the dagger and his luck increased. He was Healed of the daggers effect and his luck increased AGAIN. Both times are dagger related. To use the fact that he wasn't as lucky before the Healing as an excuse for the dagger not being responsible you need to also come up with another excuse for what was supressing his luck when he got the dagger, something he got rid of. I am using the same logic as you on this people. I will explain it again to word it exactly how I mean it, as sometimes my wording isnt brill.

 

Mat gains the dagger and gets luckier. He wasnt Healed of anything that supressed his luck here, yet his luck just happens to increase when he gets it. He notes so himself in his PoV, see above for the quotes provided by others. Mat is later Healed of the daggers effects by Aes Sedai and his luck increases again. Two increases in luck, two mentions of the dagger, only one mention of Aes Sedai and zero mentions of Ta'veren. Both increases in luck are connected to the dagger.

 

Didnt we get PoVs from one of the Aes Sedai involved int the Healing? Maybe we should look to see if there are any hints that something unusual happened when Mat was Healed. Unfortunately I dont have the first books though so I cant check.

 

BUT if there are no hints that something unusual was done then everyone has to agree it was the dagger! (Joking btw)

[a pale tanned lover]

Can you explain the bit Optimus where he was lucky with the dagger where he was lucky before Moiraine met him in Camelyn?

[OptimusPrime]

Explain what happened that was lucky please and where it is in relation to him having or not having the dagger/if its after being Healed, and yes, I will explain it.

[a pale tanned lover]

where he was lucky with the dagger before Moiraine met him in Camelyn?