Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Mr. Dragon]

But it is a fact that Rand and Perrin don't show the same luck so it can't be ta'veren.

 

Well they don't gamble so we really don't know. On the issue of balance, in gambling, there is a winner and a loser, if one person wins then another loses thus there is a balance in terms of good/bad, one person winning all the time doesn't change that, it's just that the good is focused on one person. As we only really have 2 other ta'veren to compare Mat to but who aren't in the same situations as he is, you can in no way discount being ta'veren as the source of Mat's luck.

[GoldenK]

But it is a fact that Rand and Perrin don't show the same luck so it can't be ta'veren.

 

Well they don't gamble so we really don't know. On the issue of balance, in gambling, there is a winner and a loser, if one person wins then another loses thus there is a balance in terms of good/bad, one person winning all the time doesn't change that, it's just that the good is focused on one person. As we only really have 2 other ta'veren to compare Mat to but who aren't in the same situations as he is, you can in no way discount being ta'veren as the source of Mat's luck.

 

If it was ta'veren, you'd think the coin would land on its side every time, for the sake of balance!

 

 

if you re-read the first couple books, i'd be willing to bet mat dices in taverns etc and doesnt have extraordinary luck, even whilst being Ta'Veren.

[dholm]

Mat doesn't dice prior to the second book, and he has luck then.

[GoldenK]

Mat doesn't dice prior to the second book, and he has luck then.

thats a surprise

[a pale tanned lover]

The quotes that are used from Mat's pov about the dagger are from the same person who wonders where Olver gets all his bad habits from, throughout the books he's shown to have a great understanding of certain things around him,such as war, mainly because he has other memories, but a limited understanding of events closer to hand. You can't use his thoughts as proof that it is the dagger because in so many cases he is wrong in how he thinks. He wants to run away from an early stage, so is still being there wrong because he has had that thought many times.

[Mr Ares]

The quotes that are used from Mat's pov about the dagger are from the same person who wonders where Olver gets all his bad habits from, throughout the books he's shown to have a great understanding of certain things around him,such as war, mainly because he has other memories, but a limited understanding of events closer to hand.

Except a limited understanding does not equate to having a poor sense of time. "I got this, I got lucky. It was taken away, I got luckier." Compare to "I got this kid, his manners keep getting worse, the longer he spends with me. Must find out who's to blame." That he fails to put a and b together says nothing about his inability to notice a and b in the first place. If anything, it backs up that he notices these things. And he noticed the timing of getting the dagger. Even if he didn't put the pieces together. So you have said nothing to support you case.

[Durinax]

he cannot definitively say that when he gets the dagger he got luckier, since he cannot remember most of his childhood. This problem is also compounded by the fact that everyone in emonds field automatically blaimed mat for every practical joke/unfortunate event, thus it cannot be proven that he had a lack/abundance of luck back then. Except when he recalls playing dice with the merchants guard

[Mr Ares]

he cannot definitively say that when he gets the dagger he got luckier

Just almost certainly.

[Phariah]

ok ima amend my theory slightly  :P

i don't feel taveren made him lucky but i feel it enhanced his natural luck. ;D

i mean he has always been know as lucky he becomes taveren before Moiraine arrives. the way i see it his taveren/luck was all that was helping him survive the corruption from the dagger till he was healed and thats why after he was healed u see the insane luck appear, like water that was being held back and finally given a chance to flow. also his luck comes in waves an  a taveren effects come in waves ,so similar would be easy to see one affecting the other ;)

i mean he is lucky . but i feel the insane luck that affects him only is from being taveren.like when that Shaido maiden attacked him with the dagger an it deflected off the medallion and the stress fracture caused it to break all a manipulation of chance,

[Cursedmage]

I never understood Mats luck to be the product of the tainted dagger.  I always took it for him being ta'veren that his luck originated from; it would make sense for Mat to blame the dagger for his luck, because ta'veren has the flavor of duty, and Matt seems to shun duty and ta'veren.  The one thing I find intriguing about the dagger and luck theory is Fain's increased luck.  Both held the dagger; even though I don't remember Fain ever being "lucky", if somebody could point out Fain's increased luck in the books it would influence my opinion and perhaps others as well.

 

I don't believe channeling had anything to do with Mats luck at all.

[Durinax]

can someone remind me how fain is lucky

[Mr Ares]

ok ima amend my theory slightly

A start, but not enough. Keep amending, I'll tell you when you get there.

 

it would make sense for Mat to blame the dagger for his luck

Yes, it makes perfect sense for him to blame the thing that almost killed him, with no good reason to do so...

[Cursedmage]

Yes, it makes perfect sense for him to blame the thing that almost killed him, with no good reason to do so...

 

The dagger had every reason to kill him, it was tainted from Shadar Logoth after all, of course its more like a virus, by wanting to spread the taint rather then kill the host off.

So did the dagger really ever "want" to kill anyone.

 

Matt likes scapegoats and the dagger is the perfect scapegoat for him, not wanting any responsibility, at this time in the books, he blames the dagger for his luck, because otherwise he would have to face the fact he is ta'veren with a lot of work to do.

 

I'm still in the ta'veren effected Mats luck crowd.

[Mr Ares]

the dagger is the perfect scapegoat for him

Not really. If it weren't for the fact his changes in luck are linked to the dagger, it would be rather random.

I'm still in the ta'veren effected Mats luck crowd.

Then you're still wrong.

[Phariah]

ok ima amend my theory slightly

A start, but not enough. Keep amending, I'll tell you when you get there.

 

nah that'll be far enough  ;D

can't believe that dagger fiction, an out of context / self delusional statement is your only proof of the dagger giving Mat luck ;)

i mean he is a kid on the run , he wants to get away from the island ,he has been questioned by Siuan and Lanfear , afterwards he is like im outta here asap

than u have someone accuse him of having the dark ones luck and scares the hell outta him

now lets see his options

1= Dark One .. he was in my dreams , he has a link to me, darkfriends/ aes sedai / people are gonna still be after me  :o

2= Horn .. im still linked to it , i have to blow the horn at TG  and someone else can use it if i die , everyone is gonna be hunting me for it  :(

3= Taveren .. im linked to TG  and Rand /the Dragon Reborn , everyone and there mother is going to be lookin for me  :-X

4= Dagger... hmmm that's right i was healed from it , no ones going to be looking for me because of a crappy dagger, i have no link to it anymore ... sweet thats my decision i'll blame this luck on the dagger its my safest choice  ;)

 

if the dagger caused his luck where is it after he gets the dagger? i dont see any greater increase, and later he should lose it after he is healed from it because he is no longer linked to it

 

if the dagger caused the luck how come it didnt increase Rand's luck , and it sure didn't increase Turak's luck ( unless getting cut in 1/2 is luckier than just getting stabbed ) ... they both handled it

 

when Fain is talking about his gifts he has ,and the ones he actually uses have all dealt with corruption/ suspition, not once anything relating to luck or chance and if they were even half as good as Mat's i'm quite sure he would have said so

[Thor]

i also don't see how you can be so perverted as to believe that mat said that his luck was due to the dagger.

 

did he ever say, 'The dagger gave me luck' or 'Damn I'm so happy about the dagger cause else I would have been dead without my luck'?  No the luck was not due to dagger.

[Mr Ares]

can't believe that dagger fiction

It's a fact. To ascribe it to the dagger when there is no link between it and the luck might seem foolish, but when a link is clearly presented it is foolish to say it doesn't exist.

 

if the dagger caused his luck where is it after he gets the dagger?

Well, after he gets the dagger is when it begins to manifest. Mat himself notes it.

i dont see any greater increase

You don't have anything to compare it with.

and later he should lose it after he is healed from it because he is no longer linked to it

Why do people keep bringing that up as if it were a point? It isn't.

 

if the dagger caused the luck how come it didnt increase Rand's luck

Rand wasn't linked to it.

it sure didn't increase Turak's luck

Neither was Turak.

 

when Fain is talking about his gifts he has ,and the ones he actually uses have all dealt with corruption/ suspition

And illusion, and pain. And even if he doesn't have Mat's luck, so what? Mat doesn't have Fain's ability to torture Fades, as far as we have seen. Doesn't mean anything. Fain has a lot of powers. Nothing says he has to have the same as Mat.

 

i also don't see how you can be so perverted as to believe that mat said that his luck was due to the dagger.

 

did he ever say, 'The dagger gave me luck' or 'Damn I'm so happy about the dagger cause else I would have been dead without my luck'?  No the luck was not due to dagger.

Trolling again, I see. It was the dagger, read the books, and the thread.

[Thor]

i read the thread, and mat never said it's the dagger.  is there a quote from RJ somewhere on this?

 

call me a troll? you're the stuff under troll boots. (or troll feet anyways, not sure how many trolls wear boots)

[Durinax]

Quote

i dont see any greater increase

You don't have anything to compare it with.

if you have nothing to compare it with how do you know it was not a pre existing condition, especially since there is nothing about luck in emonds field, and we do not see mat gambling until the borderlands

[Alghar Khan]

Mat was lucky in Emond's field. Hawkwing was lucky due to being ta'veren. Of course, Hawkwing was probably less of a ta'veren than Mat is. I'm also thinking the Horn might have increased Mat's luck in some way.

[dholm]

can't believe that dagger fiction

It's a fact. To ascribe it to the dagger when there is no link between it and the luck might seem foolish, but when a link is clearly presented it is foolish to say it doesn't exist.

You still haven't proven that the link exists.

[OptimusPrime]

can't believe that dagger fiction

It's a fact. To ascribe it to the dagger when there is no link between it and the luck might seem foolish, but when a link is clearly presented it is foolish to say it doesn't exist.

You still haven't proven that the link exists.

 

Nobody has proven that it doesnt either, and they havent proven that Fain doesnt have Mats luck. We havent seen Fain play dice, or decide which inn to visit by spinning on the spot. And Fain wasnt Healed by Aes Sedai. So, any similarities between Fain and Mat are irrelevant, based on those facts and the fact that Fain was remade by the Dark One, which in itself could have changed the whole process from the start anyway. Mat wasnt wierd-lucky, he had the dagger for a bit, then was wierd-lucky. The daggers affect on his luck could have been influenced by his being Ta'veren, but it doesnt really matter either way. He wasnt lucky, he had the dagger, then he was lucky. 2+2=...

[dholm]

Which means the dagger fits a timing issue. However, Mat being ta'veren can fit that as well.

 

There are other considerations concerning the dagger. How did it increase his luck? Why did it increase it further when he was severed from it?

 

It isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

[OptimusPrime]

You could put it down to the nature of the Shadar Logoth evil, the one that pulled powers out of thin air to fight against the Shadow. It might be that luck is an aspect of its source of power. Or it could be that it was specifically a ta'veren that was tainted by it, the fact that chance changes around a ta'veren becoming chance AND luck. Or some other explanation.

 

But whatever the ins-and-outs of it, whatever the explanation, Mat didnt have wierd luck before he had the dagger, and he had wierd luck after getting the dagger. That luck doesnt strengthen as the story goes on, Mats understanding of that luck does.

 

His luck is NOT an original trait of Mats Taveren, just like Rand being a channeler isnt and Perrin being a Wolfbrother isnt. Otherwise, just like all three see each other when they think of each other, all three would have the Dark Ones own luck if Mats luck was down to him being Ta'veren alone. So far as we know-and we are this far-Ta'veren only vary in strength, nothing else.

 

Mats luck is down to the dagger.

[Alghar Khan]

Mat said he was lucky in Emond's field. Hawkwing was exceptionally lucky, and as far as I know he hadn't held that evil Dagger. I still think Mat's exceptional luck (tumbling dice and all) could be due to the Horn. Maybe in combination with some other things.