Mat's Luck and Channeling

[Robo-Hillbilly]

This may have been hashed out, I think Morraine used the Dice ter angreal on Mat.

 

Mat was healed three times with regards to the dagger, not twice BTW.

 

Once by Morraine alone when she shields him from the dagger's taint after finding out he carried something out of SL (TEOTW). Morraine mentions he will survive if he is lucky. Mat is only described as suspicious and hateful while he has the dagger, he intraverts and gets weak. His luck improves when he is shielded from the dagger's influence.

 

Next, Mat is healed by Morraine, Verin, Suin, and some other Aes sedai at Shiner when they got the dagger back from Fain and Mat is almost dead (TGH). From this point RJ describs Mat's "luck" as stellar and Mat begins to even act as though it is not ordinary. And his chapter sigils become the dice.

 

Finally, at Tar Valon when Morraine, Verin, Suin and others work to remove it from him permanently (TDR). He starts making his fortune from this point.

 

Mat's luck is mentioned as improving only after these events begin to take place. Sure he was lucky according to Rand, but he still had some bad luck too, or he would never have been caught at his pranks.

 

Mat's "luck" is discussed in greater detail (descriptions of dice rolls and things not possible without something affecting it) after the ter angrel of the dice is mentioned in the list of stolen items (TGH). His luck acts almost exactly like the dice describe. Why would RJ waste the time making these comparisons if it is not important.

 

Verin and Morraine both have angreal that were removed from Tar Valon without permiission, and Verin had the stone ring ter angreal she gave the girls. Why could Morraine not have been the ones who took the dice ter angreal?

 

Most of the stolen items have been mentioned since the list was given to the girls, the hedge hog captured Faile and Perrin, the various TAR ter angrel recovered by the girls from the BA, the Balefire ter angreal used while Nynaeve fought the BA in Tanchico, but The dice never have shown up. Why would they not have at least been used against Mat to oppose his ability by now?

 

All of the boys are tavaren and the books show each of them affecting the pattern in random ways. Rand and the marriages all around him, people falling and not hurt to death from tripping and such. Perrin has similar issues in the Two Rivers campaign. Mat has people following him to battle at every turn and the battles that the pattern needs won flow towards him. However, Mat's luck is not just due to his Tavarenness.

 

 

[Alghar Khan]

All of the boys are tavaren and the books show each of them affecting the pattern in random ways. Rand and the marriages all around him, people falling and not hurt to death from tripping and such. Perrin has similar issues in the Two Rivers campaign. Mat has people following him to battle at every turn and the battles that the pattern needs won flow towards him. However, Mat's luck is not just due to his Tavarenness.

Why was Arthur Hawkwing lucky? We don't know if all ta'veren avatars (such as "the Dragon") have the same effect.

[Blackhoof]

A thought has just occured to me; what if mat is Artur Hawking reborn? Probably not, but, maybe.  :)

[Durinax]

I dont think that can be, Artur was there when the horn was called. I am pretty sure that the horn just allows them to come into the real world from the dream world

[Germs]

Do we really need all these theories? I always thought it was just Mat's Ta'verenness that made him lucky. Sure he's luckier than Rand or Perrin, but maybe that's just because the Pattern/RJ decided he was gonna fill the Rogue archetype. I don't know; there's probably some really convincing counterexample that proves me wrong somewhere in this forty page monstrosity; I haven't bothered to look through all of it. It just seems like it's simpler than everyone's making it.

 

Please don't flame me for an ignorant dunce.

 

Could someone who's actually been following this forum make a list of the more convincing theories? I don't have the time to comb through all the pages of this titan.

[Mardragon]

I dont think that can be, Artur was there when the horn was called. I am pretty sure that the horn just allows them to come into the real world from the dream world

 

Exactly. Hawking wouldn't have come when Mat blew the horn if he had been reborn already as Mat or anyone.

[Cillian]

Some minor corrections.

 

Mat is only described as suspicious and hateful while he has the dagger, he intraverts and gets weak. His luck improves when he is shielded from the dagger's influence.

 

He stops being suspicious and hateful after being shielded, but we don't see, firsthand, him being exceptionally lucky until he's dicing in Shienar.

 

Next, Mat is healed by Morraine, Verin, Suin, and some other Aes sedai at Shiner when they got the dagger back from Fain and Mat is almost dead (TGH). From this point RJ describs Mat's "luck" as stellar and Mat begins to even act as though it is not ordinary. And his chapter sigils become the dice.

 

That was actually just after Fain stole the Dagger. The Aes Sedai tried healing/severing Mats bond to it but then they realized they actually needed the Dagger at hand to do it properly.

 

EDIT: There was another attempt to heal Mat between books 2 and 3 by Verin and Moiraine (who had an angreal) but they were not strong enough.

TDR - Chpt 16

"Moiraine and Verin could not, and Moiraine had an angreal."

 

Mat's luck is mentioned as improving only after these events begin to take place. Sure he was lucky according to Rand, but he still had some bad luck too, or he would never have been caught at his pranks.

 

Exactly, nor would he have lost so heavily dicing with that merchants guard.

 

 

 

Verin and Morraine both have angreal that were removed from Tar Valon without permiission, and Verin had the stone ring ter angreal she gave the girls. Why could Morraine not have been the ones who took the dice ter angreal?

 

EDIT: I just came across this.

The main reason it couldn't be the dice (and therefore couldn't be Moiraine w/ the dice) is because it would need to be in use to work. As evidenced by the notes of Corianin Nedeal in TDR Chpt 25 - Questions

"Use unknown, save that channeling through it seems to suspend chance in some way, or twist it"

Emphasis mine.

I think it would have been mention if the ter'angreal gave Corianin permanent super luck.

[Blackhoof]

yeah, it was probably mats taverenness that caused the luck, or taveren combined with some unique perk he has.

[OptimusPrime]

yeah, it was probably mats taverenness that caused the luck, or taveren combined with some unique perk he has.

 

Like being tainted by Shadar Logoth.

[Alghar Khan]

After being tainted by the Dagger, he still only won 6 or 8 tosses in a row "at times" (playing with Hurin). Anyone should win that much. Anyone. And he was always lucky, even in Emond's Field. So, we have only one point of reference. The healing from the effects of the Dagger. The increase after the healing was extreme. Really extreme.

 

[Mr Ares]

your proof is from the same rambling in which he said that the dagger gave him the luck

Except he didn't say that. And saying you don't know what caused it isn't the same as saying you don't know when it started.

the same sentence that as you have said is not an admittance that the dagger caused the luck.

It's an admittance of when it started. That's not the same thing.

timing; debunked useless

Not in the slightest.

there is only one proven and that is Fain

Exactly. We have a very limited pool, two, both displaying powers. Even if you right off Fain, you can't dismiss Mat. He's unique, so his unique power can be a response to a unique situation. So there is nothing to say SL couldn't cause it, and evidence to suggest it did.

so basically the weight of evidence is just your opinion and assumptions which = no fact

You do realise you actually have to show how, don't you? You have said nothing against the weight of evidence supporting the dagger. There is no plausible alternative with as much evidence behind it. No plausible alternative, in fact

yes he was healed numerous times by Verin but that was to keep his health up she knew she couldn't heal him from the dagger. there has been only 2 attempts to heal him from the dagger Moiraine and TV.

Shienar?

you still are contradicting yourself.

You do realise you actually have to show how, don't you?

he says it was SL

No, he doesn't. He doesn't want to consider it was SL. He thinks it might be, not that it was, and that it started after he went there.

yes there was

Suppression flatly contradicts the evidence, and there is nothing to support it. That he got luckier after being Healed does not indicate his luck was suppressed when he had it. Nothing for, something against. Doesn't work.

yes it does

No, it doesn't. Stop trolling.

 

It doesn't make sense for Mat to be lucky as a result of a near-death experience due to the taint of Shadar Logoth.

Why not?

 

What does make sense is what we already know, that he is ta'veren.

But the luck didn't come until a whle after he became ta'veren. Specifically, after SL.

 

simple altering of chance to allow for dice to always land favourably...?

But why only dice, why not horses or cards as well? Why does he consider the two abilities separate?

 

As a gambler, Mat needs to be lucky to win

Why does he need to be luckier with dice than he is with cards, and his lcuk doesn't work at all with horses?

 

The average person would be expected to win 4 or 5 times. He was "always" luckier than average, even in Emond's Field.

So what? He was always lucky, then he got lucxkier, then he got luckier again. Two increases to his luck. Stop ignoring evidence, troll.

 

He was lucky in Emond's Field.

Before he was ta'veren. So his lcuk then wasn't ta'veren. So brining up Hawkwing harms your case here.

 

No, I'm not ignoring evidence. There is no evidence to ignore.

Exactly. Ignoring evidence.

 

Three stages?

According to the evidence, yes. We have nothing to suggest otherwise, and this is actually supported.

 

If he would win 6 or 8 times in a row at 10 separate occasions, then he would also win at least 10 times in a row.

Doesn't follow.

 

Your maths prove nothing. They do not support you. They are irrelevant.

 

rand: met lanfear, began channeling.

Rand started channeling in book 1, troll. He didn't meet Lanfear till book 2. You have yet to explain the discrepancy.

 

I don't think it's possible to suggest when his luck manifested itself - just that it becomes more obvious once he's split from Rand.

Mat himself tells us when.

 

This may have been hashed out, I think Morraine used the Dice ter angreal on Mat.

She didn't, according to RJ. The possibility was dismissed on page 1.

 

Why was Arthur Hawkwing lucky? We don't know if all ta'veren avatars (such as "the Dragon") have the same effect.

Why was Mat lucky before he became ta'veren? Why did the first increase in his luck happen some time after? Why does he think the two are separate?

 

what if mat is Artur Hawking reborn?

Then who was that guy at Falme?

 

Do we really need all these theories?

No. We can make do with the only one supported by evidence - the dagger.

 

I always thought it was just Mat's Ta'verenness that made him lucky.

Why, when Mat tells us the two are separate? Mat's luck first starts not in the TR, but after SL. He became ta'veren shortly before the series began. His luck increased on two occasions, both relating to the dagger. In (very) short, it was the dagger.

 

We have nothing to indicate ta'veren. That the dagger suppressed his luck is a crackpot denial of the facts supported only by trolls. There is no reasonable alternative to the dagger.

[Alghar Khan]

The average person would be expected to win 4 or 5 times. He was "always" luckier than average, even in Emond's Field.

So what? He was always lucky, then he got lucxkier, then he got luckier again. Two increases to his luck. Stop ignoring evidence, troll.

We don't know that there were two increases. It could have been a very tiny gradual change. But it couldn't have been any "jump" before the healing in Tar Valon.

 

He was lucky in Emond's Field.

Before he was ta'veren. So his lcuk then wasn't ta'veren. So brining up Hawkwing harms your case here.

Only if "always" really means literally (from the cradle...). Many people would say "always" when it's something that has been going on a long time. I've heard meteorologists jokingly say that "'in a man's memory' means two years" (don't know if I'm translating it correctly, since I don't usually speak english  :-\).

 

If he would win 6 or 8 times in a row at 10 separate occasions, then he would also win at least 10 times in a row.

Doesn't follow.

 

Your maths prove nothing. They do not support you. They are irrelevant.

You were the one that brought up "6 or 8 tosses in a row" as evidence of something. Now you say we can't use the statments, since it is "irrelevant".

 

Why was Arthur Hawkwing lucky? We don't know if all ta'veren avatars (such as "the Dragon") have the same effect.

Why was Mat lucky before he became ta'veren? Why did the first increase in his luck happen some time after? Why does he think the two are separate?

We don't know for sure that he was lucky before he became ta'veren. If someone says "always", they might not mean it to be literally always. How long has he been gambling? Maybe a few years. His luck was never extreme in Emond's Field, so it must be hard to tell that he was luckier than average (unless he gambled a lot). If there was any "increase some time after", then it was a tiny one. With the exception of the healing in Tar Valon. The healing in Tar Valon gave an extreme increase in apparant luck. What does he think is separate?

 

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I know, I know... I don't have to read if I don't want to... but one question - am I the only one who thinks this thread is like an eternally cyclical merry go round?   :'(

[Cillian]

I know, I know... I don't have to read if I don't want to... but one question - am I the only one(1) who thinks this thread is like an eternally cyclical merry go round (2)?   :'(

 

1. No

2. Is there any other kind?  :D

[Durinax]

this is the WHEEL of time, so our discussion goes in a cyclical fashion, with small changes as new information gets introduced

[Mr Ares]

We don't know that there were two increases.

That's what the evidence indicates.

Only if "always" really means literally (from the cradle...).

Not really, no. He hasn't been ta'veren long before the series begins. Weeks at best.

 

Now you say we can't use the statments

No, I'm saying you can't use the maths to prove anything. The statement does, Mat's luck increased. Unless RJ sat down and wrote this series with a calculator in hand, the maths really don't help the issue. RJ is telling us he got luckier. That's it. You can't statistically prove he didn't.

We don't know for sure that he was lucky before he became ta'veren.

You're the one who brings up him always being lucky. He was made ta'veren shortly before the series began.

How long has he been gambling? Maybe a few years.

How long has he been ta'veren? He has a basis for comparison. He was lucky befor ehe was ta'veren, and his first increase didn't happen until some time after.

What does he think is separate?

The luck and being ta'veren. He thinks of the two quite distinctly, even late in the series (as late as KoD or CoT he thinks of the two as different).

[Blackhoof]

Im giving up on this thread. Its a never-ending cycle of "he is" or "No it wasn't", I stop posting in three....two....one.... *transmission terminated*

[Cillian]

yes he was healed numerous times by Verin but that was to keep his health up she knew she couldn't heal him from the dagger. there has been only 2 attempts to heal him from the dagger Moiraine and TV.

 

Incorrect. The count is 4 times.

-Moiraine in Caemlyn. (w/ the dagger, but she wasn't strong enough to break the bond)

-The Moiraine and some other Aes Sedai in Sheinar. (without the dagger, so it couldn't work)

- Between books 2 and 3, I assume on Toman Head. (w/ the Dagger. Moiraine and Verin + an angreal, failed because they weren't strong enough)

- Successful attempt in Tar Valon.

 

[mb]

The count is 4 times.

-Moiraine in Caemlyn. (w/ the dagger, but she wasn't strong enough to break the bond)

-The Moiraine and some other Aes Sedai in Sheinar. (without the dagger, so it couldn't work)

- Between books 2 and 3, I assume on Toman Head. (w/ the Dagger. Moiraine and Verin + an angreal, failed because they weren't strong enough)

- Successful attempt in Tar Valon.

If the one on Toman Head happened, it would have actually happened before Chapter 49 of Great Hunt, not between Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn.  Because Mat was gone when Rand woke up in Chapter 49.

Though I take that it did not happen since Moiraine does not mention any attempt when she told Mat left; nor does it get mentioned in the scene of the trip to Tar Valon.

 

[Demon_AS]

It doesn't make sense for Mat to be lucky as a result of a near-death experience due to the taint of Shadar Logoth.

Why not?

Because it seems too arbitrary a reason when it can be explained much more simply - being ta'veren practically implies special things happening around you. It's Occam's Razor.

I don't think it's possible to suggest when his luck manifested itself - just that it becomes more obvious once he's split from Rand.

Mat himself tells us when.

Does he? Do you have the quote? I would be interested to see if I agree.

[dholm]

Mat thinks "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth" in Chapter 30 of TDR.

[Mr Ares]

It doesn't make sense for Mat to be lucky as a result of a near-death experience due to the taint of Shadar Logoth.

Why not?

Because it seems too arbitrary a reason when it can be explained much more simply - being ta'veren practically implies special things happening around you. It's Occam's Razor.

No, it isn't. Just because ta'veren means odd stuff will happen, doesn't mean every odd thing is automatically ta'veren. This doesn't fit with ta'veren. Mat doesn't think it's ta'veren. The timing doesn't fit with ta'veren.Reall,y all you're saying is that you don't like it, you don't have a good reason to dismiss it.

I don't think it's possible to suggest when his luck manifested itself - just that it becomes more obvious once he's split from Rand.

Mat himself tells us when.

Does he? Do you have the quote? I would be interested to see if I agree.

The quote has been provided numerous times thoughout the thread. "The luck had come once he took the dagger from Shadar Logoth". We also see him lucky in Shienar, in TGH, and he mentions his success dicing against Hurin on the road to TV in TDR, in which he also mentions that the luck came after SL. He specifically states that it wasn't in the TR, and that's when he became ta'veren.

[Cillian]

If the one on Toman Head happened, it would have actually happened before Chapter 49 of Great Hunt, not between Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn.  Because Mat was gone when Rand woke up in Chapter 49.

 

Yeah, good point. But none the less, around that time.

 

Though I take that it did not happen since Moiraine does not mention any attempt when she told Mat left; nor does it get mentioned in the scene of the trip to Tar Valon.

 

Egwene mentions it when herself, Nyneave and Elayne think about trying to heal Mat themselves.

TDR - Chpt 16

"Moiraine and Verin could not, and Moiraine had an angreal."

 

I had already pointed it out, but in an edited post so it was easily missed.

[Durinax]

Egwene mentions it when herself, Nyneave and Elayne think about trying to heal Mat themselves.

TDR - Chpt 16

"Moiraine and Verin could not, and Moiraine had an angreal."

was she thinking about their individual efforts or their combined efforts?

[Cillian]

was she thinking about their individual efforts or their combined efforts?

 

My bad, I miss-quoted. I just checked it, Elayne says;

"Verin could not, Moiraine and Verin together could not, and Moiraine had an angreal"