A serious character flaw in Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene...

[Mashiara Sedai]

This is something that has always bothered me about Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene.  They despise and absolutely hate the Seanchan for collaring women who can channel.  YET, they don't even bat an eye at collaring Mogheiden.  They can get around that hypocrisy because she is one of the Forsaken and deserves it.  But the way the Seanchan are raised in their society to believe women who can channel are, in much the same way, as horrifiying as one of the Forsaken.  Looking at it that way, the Seanchan are also justified in collaring women.  It is very bothersome to see those three get all high and mighty about hating the Seanchan, but then go and do the exact same thing.

 

I think this is a serious fault in all of them, one that I think shouldn't have been written into their characters.  Especailly Egwene.  She should know better than that.

 

~Mashiara

[Charlz Fel]

If someone threatens you, it's hard to sit back and think "Well, I shouldn't blame that person because they believe all people like me are evil," especially when it is blindingly obvious to you that all people like you are not evil--in fact, that the group you are being lumped into has no relationship with being evil or not.  I also would point out that, as the series continues and the characters gain more experience with the Seanchan, they stop despising them; they simply believe that the Seanchan must be stopped.

[MatsLuck]

Meh. I see it as different with Mogy because they weren't treating her the way the damane get treated ie sub-human. She was treated as a prisoner, and I thought of the adam more like handcuffs for channelers in that instance. They really only needed it to restrain her. Any torture or hard interigation she received would have been done without the adam as well. She was a POW, but not property.

[Kaznen]

Meh. I see it as different with Mogy because they weren't treating her the way the damane get treated ie sub-human. She was treated as a prisoner, and I thought of the adam more like handcuffs for channelers in that instance. They really only needed it to restrain her. Any torture or hard interigation she received would have been done without the adam as well. She was a POW, but not property.

They did use the adam to torture and interigate her.  I would be suprise if Semi isn't sportin' a adam herself.

 

The thing to keep in mind about the whole sul'dame/Seanchan history is there was never a central authority for AS in Seanchan (ie White Tower) so the AS schemed and fought agaisnt each other and used the non-channeling folk as fodder for their private wars.

 

The Seanchan AS were evil and the people lived in fear of them that was part of the reason why Hawkwing's son was so kean to see them all collared, even the one who invented the adam.

[Krazikarl]

The Seanchan hate marath'damane for a property that they were born with (they can channel without being taught), which is very different from hating somebody because of something they have done.

 

Its like hating a black man simply because he is black (racism) and hating a murderer who just happens to be black because he is a murderer.  Two COMPLETELY different scenarios.  One is completely wrong and it doesnt matter one bit if it was because you were raised that way.  The other belief is quite reasonable.

 

Moghedian deserved what she got and probably deserved worse.  The damane generally do not deserve what they get.  Is anybody going to argue otherwise on either point?  I dont think so, so I dont really see the problem.

[Miltiades]

I agree with Kranzikarl, hating somebody for what they have done is fundamentally different from hating them simply for what they are.

 

The Seanchan collar innocent young girls who have harmed no one, Nynaeve and Elayne collar a merciless monster responsible for the deaths of probably tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.

 

Also, regardless of what they were raised to believe, the link between damane and sul'dam would let the sul'damn know that the damaneis simply a normal woman like herself and not some evil monster.

 

Nynaeve repeatedly complains about being contaminated by contact with Moghedien's warped and evil mind, so the sul'dam could tell that the damane is just a frightened girl and not some kind of dangerous wild animal.

[Rhalurn]

You're absolutely right, how dare they use it on poor moghedian?

 

C'mon, think about it for one minute. Nynaeve has been personally hounded by this forsaken and in a moment of genius managed to restrain her from killing herself and her friends without having to slit her throat.

 

It was the only way RJ could have his two leading ladies from Edmonds field stop a forsaken without us losing our respect for them. I wouldn't like Nynaeve as much as i do if she went "well i could imprison you against your will, but as thats immoral i'll just slit your throat and be done with it."

[Hybrid]

I agree with Kranzikarl, hating somebody for what they have done is fundamentally different from hating them simply for what they are.

 

The Seanchan collar innocent young girls who have harmed no one, Nynaeve and Elayne collar a merciless monster responsible for the deaths of probably tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.

This.  (I'm aware the point was originally made by Krazikarl, but Miltiades summarized it better.  :P)

 

I think that Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, et al. have character flaws but I don't see this as one of them.  I see this as a reasonable defense against a murdering, lying, manipulating psychopath.

 

The Seanchan AS were evil and the people lived in fear of them that was part of the reason why Hawkwing's son was so kean to see them all collared, even the one who invented the adam.

They were not so different from the Westlands' AS, except that the Westlands AS invented the Three Oaths and were (sort of) united under one ruler/council.  The lust for power, the pride, the disregard of non-AS, etc. is still there.  So I would not describe it as evil.  And while the defense of Hawkwing's son against the AS was justified at the time, continuing to collar people for being no more than what they are is despicable.

[MatsLuck]

They did use the adam to torture and interigate her.  I would be suprise if Semi isn't sportin' a adam herself.

Yes, I know. My point, as stated above, was that they could have (and would have if necessary) done all that without the adam. Think Chair of Remorse or some such. All they needed the adam for was its very convenient restraining properties. It kept her from running and channeling both.

 

I think Semi could do better without. She's one sick... ;)

[CTM]

I thought that part of the reason that Nynaeve and Elayne avoided wearing the braclet was because they felt guilty. Egwene, on the other hand didn't have a real choice in the issue. It would have been hard to hand Mog over to Tower justice without compromising Nynaeve and Elayne. Anyways, by that time, Egwene had been heavily influenced by the "do what you want and pay for it" philosophy of Moraine.

 

That's just what i got out of it though.

 

 

[mb]

Anyways, by that time, Egwene had been heavily influenced by the "do what you want and pay for it" philosophy of Moraine.

I do not recall Egwene having that philosophy, nor Moiraine.

It was Elayne who quoted it, she got it from Lini.

 

 

The collaring seems not what Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve despise the Seanchan for, but using people as property/pets.

The 3 of them treated Moghedien more as a prisoner than as property/pet.

 

[Astus]

The collaring seems not what Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve despise the Seanchan for, but using people as property/pets.

But isn't that exactly what collaring represents? Owning something? So if they despise the "property/pet" aspect of Seanchan society (which I do not think they do on a whole, I doubt they understand it when it comes to "property" like So'jihn, Deathwatch Guards) then it stands to reason that they would despise the means by which this is achieved. It would be the a'dam in the case of the damane.

You can't have one without the other.

[Serenla]

For me, the reason why what the Seanchan do to women who can channel is different from putting a collar on the Forsaken is simple.  Moghedien was scared and shamed and kept against her will, like any other prisoner would be.  The damane on the other hand are as a rule brainwashed and tortured until they believe that they are less than human and deserving of being treated as dangerous animals.  The reason why the Egwene and Teslyn and others hate the Seanchan so much is because they know that if they had remained in the adam even a few more days or weeks then they would have lost their sense of self and become the tamed animal the Seanchan make of women who can channel.  For me imprisoning someone can be necessary, but making them lose their identity and sense of self is evil.

[mb]

The collaring seems not what Elayne/Egwene/Nynaeve despise the Seanchan for, but using people as property/pets.

But isn't that exactly what collaring represents? Owning something? So if they despise the "property/pet" aspect of Seanchan society (which I do not think they do on a whole, I doubt they understand it when it comes to "property" like So'jihn, Deathwatch Guards) then it stands to reason that they would despise the means by which this is achieved. It would be the a'dam in the case of the damane.

You can't have one without the other.

Prisoners are sometimes bound by something like a collar.

So pets/slaves are not the only ones that have a collar around them.