Does anyone else loathe the Aiel?

[Tel Janin]

Chainmail doesn't hinder you a great deal, it was made to be lightweight and provide great defense.  That's why it was the next step in armour's evolution.  It was easily flexible and provided great defense against edged weapons in slashing blows and against thrusts from edged or piercing weapons, like say, I don't know?  An Aiel shortspear or arrows?  Its weakness was with blunt weapons like a mace, as it wouldn't cushion the body from a blow and bones would still break, and we all know how Aiel love to use blunt weapons in battle.

 

I have to disagree with some of your points.  I'm a trained martial artist (Judo, Ninjitsu, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai); I've been studying for over 30 years.  I'm also a classically trained fencer and have studied the arts of both Medieval and Renaissance swordsmanship as martial arts for 25 years.  I'm a Medieval reenactor, and have experience in both dueling and large scale battle recreations.  I'm not trying to say I'm the best warrior in the world, I'm merely trying to show that I have some expertise in this area.  That being said, I wanted to make two points.  One, chainmail is lightweight only in comparison to plate armors.  My chain hauberk weighs 45 pounds, and that weight is carried entirely on your shoulders.  It makes for a very long day if you try to wear it all day.  And as far as blunt weapons, a trained martial artists hands and feet ARE blunt weapons.

 

Plate Armor is very heavy and limits the wearers maneuverability.  That's why it was only worn by knights, the horse could maneuver for them.  Practically impenetrable except at the inside elbow and knee joint and the armpits, none of which would be very exposed during mounted combat while using a lance.  As long as your horse has barding and you don't run into a pike, you should be relatively invulnerable on the battle field.

 

Unfortunately for all you equestrian lovers out there, the best tactic for a medieval infantryman versus a mounted, armored opponent is to take out the horse.  A mounted, armored knight is really only invulnerable from the front.  After the first charge, unless he's managed to plow through and turn about, he'll be flanked, and the underside of his mount will be a prime target for the unchivalrous infantryman.

 

The Aiel are meant to seem somewhat, I don't want to say superhuman so I'll say "the pinnacle of human physicality."  ALL algai'd'siswai were trained from a very young age in martial arts and the Aiel methods of combat & tactics.  No other nation in the WoT series is described in this fashion, unless you count Lan (aan'allein).  So, they seem superhuman, but they're not.  They're just the best, physically, you can be as a human.

 

Militiades, what I read you posting is that you believe without cavalry, a military force should not be able to resoundingly defeat another.  Or, in other words, "If you don't have cavalry, you'r gonna lose."  That's the summed up version of what I get from your postings.

What Mr. Ares and I (and several others) are trying to get you to acknowledge is that your stance on cavalry is incomplete.  There are many factors, senarios, situations, etc. wherein cavalry is worthless at best, and sometimes a liability.  Scads of factors have to be considered; terrain, visibility, composition of enemy forces, reconnaissance, etc. before making the overarching statement that, "If you ain't got cavalry, you ain't got nuthin'."  I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I'm trying to show you that your stance is not founded on a complete picture.

 

Anyway, that's all just my opinion.  I could be wrong.  ;D

[Thor]

what exactly make people believe that spears are inferior weapons in melee combat?  that is so preposterous i dont' even know what to say. 

 

and also, if you don't believe in wikipedia, then whatever.  but it is a common fact that zulu IS the most commonly spoken language in south africa.

[Miltiades]

 

Unfortunately for all you equestrian lovers out there, the best tactic for a medieval infantryman versus a mounted, armored opponent is to take out the horse.  A mounted, armored knight is really only invulnerable from the front.  After the first charge, unless he's managed to plow through and turn about, he'll be flanked, and the underside of his mount will be a prime target for the unchivalrous infantryman.

 

The Aiel are meant to seem somewhat, I don't want to say superhuman so I'll say "the pinnacle of human physicality."  ALL algai'd'siswai were trained from a very young age in martial arts and the Aiel methods of combat & tactics.  No other nation in the WoT series is described in this fashion, unless you count Lan (aan'allein).  So, they seem superhuman, but they're not.  They're just the best, physically, you can be as a human.

 

Militiades, what I read you posting is that you believe without cavalry, a military force should not be able to resoundingly defeat another.  Or, in other words, "If you don't have cavalry, you're gonna lose."  That's the summed up version of what I get from your postings.

What Mr. Ares and I (and several others) are trying to get you to acknowledge is that your stance on cavalry is incomplete.  There are many factors, senarios, situations, etc. wherein cavalry is worthless at best, and sometimes a liability.  Scads of factors have to be considered; terrain, visibility, composition of enemy forces, reconnaissance, etc. before making the overarching statement that, "If you ain't got cavalry, you ain't got nuthin'."  I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind, I'm trying to show you that your stance is not founded on a complete picture.

 

Anyway, that's all just my opinion.  I could be wrong.   ;D

 

That is exactly what I said about armoured cavalry. The horse is the vulnerable part. Anyway I never said that you will lose if you don't field cavalry, I was very careful not to say that and have clarified that I didn't mean to say that numerous times. Of course this thread has become a bit cumbersome with some very long posts not really meant to be read other than by the people they were addressed to, so I'm not going to hold it against you for not having known that.

 

The point I wanted to make about the Aiel is that they have several clear deficiencies in their equipment and tactics, deficiencies that could be disastrous, downright ruinous, in some circumstances. This being the case I, personally, find it unsatisfying how they hands down thrash everyone with seemingly very little effort.

[Miltiades]

Having read through all 7 pages of this thread, it seems to me that you, Miltiades, are having a temper tantrum because hardly anyone agrees with you over your opinion of the Aiel.

 

First of all, this is a fantasy work and has no bearing on the real world, whether some parts are based on it or not, it is not real. So I should think Jordan can damn well do as he pleases with his characters and races. Also given that he's studied a lot more warfare than you and been involved in a war, I would also think he knows a hell of a lot more than you do.

 

By repeatedly insisting on saying Aiel have inferior weapons (with no proof to support that) and insisting that they wear "pajamas" you come across as a 5 year old who's mad that this isn't going the way you want it to. Telling someone they have less intelligence than you because they have a different opinion is just plain arrogant. Grow up.

 

Perhaps you didn't read it careful enough. I was not the person who stated ''I'll tell you this for free, I am smarter than you''. Maybe you missed that, maybe you're being intentionally disingenuous, I do not know. I was never the arrogant one, I simply told someone that my respect for them had declined in the face of their employing ad hominem attacks. Maybe you missed that, maybe you're being intentionally disingenuous, I don't know, though I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

As for it being a fantasy novel, I already explained my position on this. Whatever fantasy elements the author wishes to include are entirely their business, and fine by me. But when including things from the real world you have to stick fairly close to the limits of that thing, otherwise you need to make it something else. I don't complain about any of the crazy stuff Myrdraal can do. Why? Because Myrdraal are not real, Jordan made them up, so whatever he says, goes. But the Aiel are apparently human, yet even an average Aiel is capable of feats nigh on impossible for an actual human being, and worse yet, doesnt even seem to expend a great deal of effort doing it.

 

Your saying I'm having a temper tantrum is laughable, I have remained calm in the face of repeated personal attacks and ridicule. Maybe you missed that, though you're probably just being intentionally disingenuous.

[Tel Janin]

The point I wanted to make about the Aiel is that they have several clear deficiencies in their equipment and tactics, deficiencies that could be disastrous, downright ruinous, in some circumstances. This being the case I, personally, find it unsatisfying how they hands down thrash everyone with seemingly very little effort.

 

Two counterpoints, or rather a counterpoint and qualifying remark.  Your term 'deficiencies', in my opinion is not accurate.  And I hereby acknowedge that this is completely subjective from various points of view, and again hinges on adding more details.  Lightly-armored, fleet-footed, infantry-archers (aka. skirmishers), and more specifically, the elite version of such (like the Aiel) would not consider their equipment to be a 'deficiency'.  Yes, there are senarios wherein the Aiel could be defeated by an effort of combined arms and/or cavalry, but the Aiel seem remarkably able to avoid those hypothetical situations through the use of reconnaissance and their endurance.  In my opinion, the ground would have to be perfect and the tactics would have to be flawless.  I don't really see their equipment or their tactics to be a sole deciding issue; rather, I believe it would irrelevant in comparison to the ground, visibility, etc.

 

One other thing, we really haven't touched on too much is numbers.  In Randland, an 'army' is a few thousand men.  And a big one at that.  If memory serves (I don't have my books here at this time), Rand brought nearly 200,000 spears our of the three-fold-land.  I'm not sure how big the force was that Janduin led out to kill Laman, but I know it was bigger than any Randland 'armies'.  My point is, the Aiel also have the numbers advantage.

 

Two more of my coppers...

[el Nynaeve]

Having read through all 7 pages of this thread, it seems to me that you, Miltiades, are having a temper tantrum because hardly anyone agrees with you over your opinion of the Aiel.

 

First of all, this is a fantasy work and has no bearing on the real world, whether some parts are based on it or not, it is not real. So I should think Jordan can damn well do as he pleases with his characters and races. Also given that he's studied a lot more warfare than you and been involved in a war, I would also think he knows a hell of a lot more than you do.

 

By repeatedly insisting on saying Aiel have inferior weapons (with no proof to support that) and insisting that they wear "pajamas" you come across as a 5 year old who's mad that this isn't going the way you want it to. Telling someone they have less intelligence than you because they have a different opinion is just plain arrogant. Grow up.

 

Perhaps you didn't read it careful enough. I was not the person who stated ''I'll tell you this for free, I am smarter than you''. Maybe you missed that, maybe you're being intentionally disingenuous, I do not know. I was never the arrogant one, I simply told someone that my respect for them had declined in the face of their employing ad hominem attacks. Maybe you missed that, maybe you're being intentionally disingenuous, I don't know, though I'm leaning toward the latter.

 

As for it being a fantasy novel, I already explained my position on this. Whatever fantasy elements the author wishes to include are entirely their business, and fine by me. But when including things from the real world you have to stick fairly close to the limits of that thing, otherwise you need to make it something else. I don't complain about any of the crazy stuff Myrdraal can do. Why? Because Myrdraal are not real, Jordan made them up, so whatever he says, goes. But the Aiel are apparently human, yet even an average Aiel is capable of feats nigh on impossible for an actual human being, and worse yet, doesnt even seem to expend a great deal of effort doing it.

 

Your saying I'm having a temper tantrum is laughable, I have remained calm in the face of repeated personal attacks and ridicule. Maybe you missed that, though you're probably just being intentionally disingenuous.

 

Well, no I didn't miss that actually, I think I got the spirit of your 'respect' message clear enough anyhow.

I will simply readjust my regard for your intelligence downward and move on.

Nothing to do with respect and all to do with intelligence.

 

I also recall that you told another poster, frenchie, that he was a moron in response to his own post (while I did not agree that he used names such as Weiramon to apply to others, he nevertheless had a valid point) You had no reason to be calling him a moron, and yes that IS arrogant. I also recall Mr Ares pointed out to you when you claimed that you had never called anyone stupid and you responded by saying you wanted to have and I quote "a reasonable debate". In the same post, you said that frenchie need to be told where to shove it. I don't call that reasonable debate, I call that having a temper tantrum.

 

In regard to it being a fantasy novel, by your own logic channelers are humans (things from the real world) who would have to be lumped in as being a different race, but they're not and I don't hear you complaining about that.

[Rolan]

Woah, some big posts in this thread! Just thought I'd chip in with my 2c

 

I love the Aiel, I think they're by far the most interesting guys in the books. And while yes, massively muscular guys running marathon distances may be a tad unbelievable, but this is a fantasy, if you're not going to buy into it, stop reading.

 

Militiades, you seem to be stuck with the notion that the Aiel haven't adapted to their fighting habits. So they don't have cavalry? That doesn't mean they're going to stand there while they're charged. They dont wear armour? They don't intend on getting hit in the first place.

 

As for the Gaul and perrin vs WC situation in TDR (I think), I don't find that unbelievable at all. You have about 10 arrogant guys, confronting a man almost 7" tall, of whose race they know nothing about except all the scary tales they hear about Black Veiled Aiel.

 

Also, how stupid would you have to be to punch someone in their armour? I seem to remember having read recently the kidnapping of Faile and crew. During this struggle Rolan subdues Faile by several blows to her wrists etc which render her completely useless. Do you really see Gaul sauntering up to a WC and punching him in the helmet like a hooligan in a bar? In fact I can quote: "his stiffened hand struck like a dagger at the Whitecloak's throat." What a noob for not cleaving him in the platemail eh?

 

The Aiel kick ass, deal with it

[Miltiades]

The point I wanted to make about the Aiel is that they have several clear deficiencies in their equipment and tactics, deficiencies that could be disastrous, downright ruinous, in some circumstances. This being the case I, personally, find it unsatisfying how they hands down thrash everyone with seemingly very little effort.

 

Two counterpoints, or rather a counterpoint and qualifying remark.  Your term 'deficiencies', in my opinion is not accurate.  And I hereby acknowedge that this is completely subjective from various points of view, and again hinges on adding more details.  Lightly-armored, fleet-footed, infantry-archers (aka. skirmishers), and more specifically, the elite version of such (like the Aiel) would not consider their equipment to be a 'deficiency'.  Yes, there are senarios wherein the Aiel could be defeated by an effort of combined arms and/or cavalry, but the Aiel seem remarkably able to avoid those hypothetical situations through the use of reconnaissance and their endurance.  In my opinion, the ground would have to be perfect and the tactics would have to be flawless.  I don't really see their equipment or their tactics to be a sole deciding issue; rather, I believe it would irrelevant in comparison to the ground, visibility, etc.

 

One other thing, we really haven't touched on too much is numbers.  In Randland, an 'army' is a few thousand men.  And a big one at that.  If memory serves (I don't have my books here at this time), Rand brought nearly 200,000 spears our of the three-fold-land.  I'm not sure how big the force was that Janduin led out to kill Laman, but I know it was bigger than any Randland 'armies'.  My point is, the Aiel also have the numbers advantage.

 

Two more of my coppers...

 

 

Of course, for skirmishing, the Aiel gear is perfect, because that is what it is for. The problem is that skirmishing is a supporting role in full scale warfare, and it leaves you very vulnerable. What are the peltoi to do if they cannot retreat behind the phalanx? What happens to velites if they cant fall back behind the maniples? Simple, they get cut to pieces.

 

I accept your point about the Aiel theoretically being able to avoid getting caught in the open. I am also pleased that you don't try to deny as some others do that men, armed as the Ail are, caught in open ground by cavalry would be immediately annihilated with very little fuss or fanfare. However I cant see how much could be achieved by such tactics other than the avoidance of annihilation. If you're always on the backfoot, always running away trying not to get caught out in a bad situation(that situation being any kind of open battle), how can you carry out an invasion properly? How can you achieve your objective of killing the king?

 

The thing is, i don't think the tactics would have to be perfect, they would just have to textbook. Point your pikemen or heavy infantry or whatever at the enemy, protect your archers so they can shoot down the squishy Aiel and if they advance just plow over them with your cavalry. It is they who would have to bring perfect tactics to the table to avoid being engaged by your cavalry, avoid engaging your infantry block head on and avoid being cut down by a hail of arrows.

[Barmacral]

Just a note, for those of you who think Chainmail is supposed to be light, try wearing it some time... its not; it is very heavy.

[Miltiades]

Well, no I didn't miss that actually, I think I got the spirit of your 'respect' message clear enough anyhow.

 

I will simply readjust my regard for your intelligence downward and move on.

Nothing to do with respect and all to do with intelligence.

 

Just like Mr Ares you seize on minor details to distract from the fundamental wrongness of what you are saying. Regard for intelligence, respect, whatever. It remains a fact that what I said was in response to an immature ad hominem attack. What I said was the simple truth, my regard for his intelligence did decrease when I saw him stoop to such pathetic tactics, so I said so. It also remains a fact that I did not address him with disrespect until he did so to me. The other posters such as Matsluck and Hybrid were perfectly able to voice their disagreements without resorting to childish ridicule and ad hominem attacks, and so you will note I had no problems with them.

 

But anyway, I'm sure you'll seize on some other minor detail here and use it to try and mount another defense.

 

I also recall that you told another poster, frenchie, that he was a moron in response to his own post (while I did not agree that he used names such as Weiramon to apply to others, he nevertheless had a valid point) You had no reason to be calling him a moron, and yes that IS arrogant. I also recall Mr Ares pointed out to you when you claimed that you had never called anyone stupid and you responded by saying you wanted to have and I quote "a reasonable debate". In the same post, you said that frenchie need to be told where to shove it. I don't call that reasonable debate, I call that having a temper tantrum.

 

That's not having a tantrum it's called having a spine. I have not spoken thus to everyone who has disagreed with me have I, therefore your assertion:

 

you, Miltiades, are having a temper tantrum because hardly anyone agrees with you over your opinion of the Aiel.

 

Is obviously and demonstrably incorrect. There must be some other reason for my hostility toward certain posters and we both know what that is as I have told you. It is people not answering in good faith but being snide and openly insulting. If someone behaves that way toward me then they need to be told where to shove it. I was retaliating, the only motive of frenchie and Mr Ares is insolence.

 

Also, as I said to Mr Ares when I said i never intended to insult anyone it was clearly referring to my original post, the one he was complaining about. Anybody can see that, YOU can see that but you're being intentionally disingenuous again.

 

 

 

As regards channeling. Jordan makes up the rules for channeling. It is a fantasy element applied to the humans who inhabit the world and that is made clear. Right from the start we are told that the humans in this world can channel, that is how it works. The Aiel masquerade as normal humans when they clearly are superhuman, and it is only the Aiel. Everybody else is just a normal human. If in the context of WoT we say a human is the same as real world channel plus the ability to channel, then we still need another name for the Aiel who surpass them in every way.

 

 

 

[Sayerin]

Well, I agree with you, Miltiades! And I don't like them, no way!  :(

*Btw, you my grandpa was called Miltiades/end spoiler/

[Miltiades]

Well, I agree with you, Miltiades! And I don't like them, no way!  :(

*Btw, you my grandpa was called Miltiades/end spoiler/

 

Thank you for the support.

 

Your grandfather was called Miltiades? Are you Greek by any chance?

 

I named my profile after the Athenian strategos at Marathon.

[Hybrid]

Why didn't the back row Shaido just take up their bows and pluck the Asha'man standing there making the front row Aiel into minced meat - if they are so good at "non standard combat"?

 

Because the Asha'man had a barrier of air.  I'd like to see the Aiel arrows that can go through that.

 

I'm fairly certain that they opened the wall of air two spans or something like that, before they started the meat grinder. Thirthy Asha'man, fourthy thousand Aiel. You'd think they'd hit home with some spears or arrows.

Then I stand corrected.  It's been a while since I read the books.  If I had to try to provide an explanation, it would be that they wouldn't realize the shield was down.  But that's speculation.

 

A bunch of people made these points before me in this topic, but I forget who exactly they were, and I'm too lazy to find the quotes.  Sorry, guys.   :P

 

Tel Janin pretty much summarized most of my points in his one post.  While I agree that the average cavalry is better than the average foot soldier, the Aiel are not the average foot soldiers.  They are at the peak of physical fitness (probably due to artificial selection in a harsh environment).  Yes, it is a bit contrived, but it is still reasonable.  I find it more plausible than the Two Rivers boys suddenly becoming superhumans, destiny or not.  Perrin was able to defeat Aiel without hardly any battle experience of his own.

 

The right tactics beat the Aiel.  They're not invincible.  Perrin used the range and power of Two Rivers longbows against them at Malden.  The Borderlanders seem to do well enough in their few skirmishes.  Mat used the proper cavalry/infantry tactics against the Aiel to great success.  The problem is that the bulk of the wetlands did not use the right tactics or have particularly good leaders.  They simply were not innovative enough to gain proper understanding of warfare before Mat arrived.

 

Also, Mat is above average intelligence, but he's hardly a military genius.  What he has is the knowledge of multiple lifetimes of battle leadership in the peak of the post-Breaking military strategy.  The wetlands had been slowly deteriorating (remember what Ingtar said in TGH?  Remember the dead village from Shiota in COT?  Remember every time they gained cohesive leadership Ishamael screwed it all up?).  Politically, economically, militarily, they were going down hill.

 

And sorry, but the "cavalry is the be-all and end-all of warfare" viewpoint is just ignorant.  In the right conditions, cavalry will decimate infantry.  No one is arguing against this.  What we are arguing is that those conditions did not exist.

[el Nynaeve]

Miltiades, I maintain that you are having a temper-tantrum, nothing you've shown me tells me any different.

 

If you continue to tell me that I'm being "intentionally disengenuous" I will begin to refer to you by that name since you're so clearly fond of that phrase. I assure you that I am not naive, intentionally or otherwise.

 

As to your point about telling another poster to "shove it", I used to be involved in wonderful reasonable, debates in high school and anyone who told another person to, in your words, shove it, was thrown out. Not acceptable bahviour in a debate, not called having a spine.

 

As to the topic at hand, personally I find that the Aiel are perfectly plausible in the context that RJ has written them. AS Hy just pointed out in the post above, cavalry warfare is not the be all and end all. The Aiel clearly are not stupid and will devise tactics to deal with any cavalry sent against them suitably.

[Sayerin]

Your grandfather was called Miltiades? Are you Greek by any chance?

No, Miltiades, I'm Bulgarian, but my grandfather had Greek origins.

As to Aiel, I'm put off by the way they can be found everywhere esp. around Rand all the time  >:(

[Braus]

As regards channeling. Jordan makes up the rules for channeling. It is a fantasy element applied to the humans who inhabit the world and that is made clear. Right from the start we are told that the humans in this world can channel, that is how it works. The Aiel masquerade as normal humans when they clearly are superhuman, and it is only the Aiel. Everybody else is just a normal human. If in the context of WoT we say a human is the same as real world channel plus the ability to channel, then we still need another name for the Aiel who surpass them in every way.

 

 

 

 

Still dont get what you think is superhuman about them. What part of the books, dont make up battles that havent occured. Give examples. I dont agree with the Gaul/Perrin example, that fight is no biggie, might not even come top 15 when it comes to bad odds fights that has been described in the books. A few examples would be:

Galad vs riot people before Elayne and Nynanvea reach Salidar, he stands in the middle of the group of 30ish or so(with no help from Uno and the rest) and just kill anyone who reach for him.

Another is Mat vs 8 or so men in the hell chapter in KOD, they are all carrying swords and the likes, he is only carrying a knife.(and mats luck got nothing to do with it. Sure he gets lucky when it matters, when its random, except the dice and the likes, stuff like when he and a assasin fell from a roof in tar valon and he lands on the guy who cushions his fall etc.

 

As far as ive understood from the books, Gaul is between 25-30 + years old(really not sure, i know hes alot older than the farm boys at least). He lived as a warrior his whole life, and he might be the next to become clan chief of the Goshien and as far as ive read in the books, he never show that hes unskilled in anyway.

 

 

Just give an example or some examples of where the Aiel people is superhuman compared to Wetlanders.

[Mr Ares]

First, if your going to throw statistics out at me, at least get them from CIA World Factbook

I used the South African national census.

My dad was in SA for a month last year, went all over the country and all echelons of society. Not once did he have to ask for an English translator.

Anecdotal evidence, not statistical evidence.

 

Your little Act of the Union bit there. By that I'll assume that you meant that the British Army consisted of troops from England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland and that because it consisted of troops from different countries/kingdoms then it should be called English, not British. Please correct me if I'm wrong here and without condescension, cause for this paragraph at least I'm trying not to condescend either. I have a couple of problems with calling it the English Army. One, it was under British leadership with Arthur Wellesley, first Duke of Wellington. Two, the Act of the Union (1707) formed the Kingdom of Great Britain and the 1800 added Ireland, so why shouldn't it be called the British Army if it comes from the Kingdom of Great Britain? So you would be wrong in calling them English forces, seeing as how they come from Great Britain. Once again, I assume that this is what you meant (note, British, not english, the Act of Union being signed about a century prior to the beginning of the war; if you don't even know the belligerents in the conflict, how can we take your opinions of it seriously?) even though continue to use British, rather than English for the rest of your paragraph. If I've misinterpreted your meaning, then please correct me and enlighten the rest of the Dragonmount posters to your actual meaning.

You said English in your post. I corrected you, saying it was a British army, not an english one. Had you read it properly, that would have been evident.

 

Chainmail doesn't hinder you a great deal, it was made to be lightweight and provide great defense.

You've never owrn it then. It is heavy.

Its weakness was with blunt weapons like a mace, as it wouldn't cushion the body from a blow and bones would still break, and we all know how Aiel love to use blunt weapons in battle.

Yes, they're big fans.

 

You have to fire them up in a parabola so they rain down overhead.

More than just your head is vulnerable.

Your peasent archers will be able to kill the Aiel warriors with ease at a distance

Your peasant archers will have to hold firm in the face of Aiel raining down heavy fire on them. The Aiel are the ones with greater discipline.

 

As has been said a whole bunch throughout this thread, the Aiel don't fight in tight formations

They are very versatile in how they fight.

The only infantry that can withstand a cavalry charge has either pikes/long spears/halberds or has depth in ranks to absorb the charge and bod it down.

The charge, yes, but when the charge is over? Then the Aiel slaughter the horses.

 

No one beats Asha'man (so Dumai's Wells shouldn't count either) not Aiel, not Seanchan, not Aes Sedai, and not Trollocs.

The Seanchane beat Rand's army, that featured Asha'man.

 

That's why I find him plausible, 'cause its explained.

And Rand? Or Lan? Or Perrin? Galad?

I want to know how a million people are all tall, jacked, (fair eyed, skinned and haired, but live in the dessert?

They migrated into the desert. Those who weren't strong enough died.

 

I've already told you' date=' spears are a poor choice of weapon when fighting in loose order.[/quote']You've said it, yet you haven't explained why a short spear is unsuitable. Very different weapon to a sarissa. Something about the size of a sword.

 

Also, I have acknowledged the advantages the Aiel have, which is more than you've done for their disadvantages. I've just said that all these things would make Aiel excellent skirmishers or raiders, not soldiers, as in people who engage in open warfare. The kind of open warfare you would need to employ against a nation on it's home ground.

Exactly. You ignore it. The Aiel can move faster than an opposing army, they have better leaders, better training, in many cases better weapons, in some cases their opponents will probably be lacking in effective armour as well. You ignore the hugely important role of mobility. Of training. Of leadership. With all of those factors, with the most highly trained, best led, fastest moving army around, you can be pretty sure of victory even against opponents with greater numbers. Even against opponents with armour.

 

Give a counter to cavalry that the Aiel actually have.

Terrain.

 

A bunch of Aiel caught in open ground against cavalry would be slaughtered to a man.

We see Aiel v cavalry in the Prologue to ACoS. What does each side do? The Aiel work in pairs, trying at least as hard to take down the horses as the men riding them. They stay out of reach of the weapons and dart in with quick strikes. The Younglings keep their horses moving, as this makes them harder to hit, work in trios. They dirve off the Aiel, but admit their opponents were not interested in fighting. That said, the tactics Gawyn has his men use, they are experienced in using, from Dumai's Wells. Good soldiers can use these tactics. But most are not experienced in fighting Aiel, and arrogantly think they can treat them as they would peasants, by charging them and forcing them to scatter. The Aiel won't.

 

Also, archers do not slaughter heavy cavalry before they get close.

They can.

 

The Aiel know how to deal with cavalry?

Yes. We see it in the books, they know how to deal. Against experienced cavalry, who know what they are doing, who are well led, they can be beaten, but most of their opponents got given command due to rank, not competence.

 

If all your troops carry the same equipment and fight in the same way, your potential for effective concerted attacks is vastly reduced.

No. If all your troops, no matter how they are armed, can fight together, then they are capable of operanting in concert. That's what it means. If they do not operate to gether, but rather as a binch of individuals, they are not acting in concert, even if they have combined arms. At Cairhien, Mat has great success, because he forces people to act in concert. While they were acting independantly, and the Aiel were acting in concert, the Aiel had the advantage.

 

So your not even debating then that the only way the Aiel would have a chance in hell is in an ambush.

I'm saying ambush would be a huge advantage, as would surpise and similar. These are advantages the Aiel have. They can be very effective in any sort of fight, because they are highly skilled soldiers. Not peasants, not arrogant tossers who have command because they can afford to keep a horse, they are battle hardened, experienced, and incredibly highly trained.

 

It was not until one side broke ranks that people really started dying.

So you force your opponents to break ranks before engaging.

 

We see them use catapults in the Two Rivers

Not in the slightest bit relevant.

 

Very well, while we're at it take away the Zulu's huge advantage in numbers and expert knowledge of their home terrain and add armour and heavy cavalry to the British forces.

So what? You're faacing, for the most part, untrained, poorly led, peasants with limited armaments, and you're not afraid to die. The advantage lies with the Aiel. What small advantages of equipment the Westlands have, the Aiel make up for in quality of soldier and quality of leader - enormously valuable assets. When facing competent, well led soldiers it is not a walkover, it is a hard fight. Which the Aiel could well end up losing. Unless those things are present, the advantage lies exactly where you wold expect it to, with the Aiel.

 

But that is exactly what I am saying sounds foolish to my ears. Men coming to attack somebody don't get taken by surprise. Both parties know there is going to be a fight, the element of surprise is lost.

Because you would insantly expect a single, unarmed man to charge right at them? Doing what your opponent doesn't expect will put them off balance, even if only for a few moments, and Gaul moved very quickly. Speed was everything in that encounter. He was on them before they could get over that moment of surprise. Trust me, that sort of thing can pay immense dividends, but it is tricky to pull off.

 

even assuming ''an instant'' is enough to take down an armoured man with nothing but your hands.

It is, if you hit him hard enough in a weak spot, which he did. Then the next one, then the next. Under circumstances like that, you need to be very, very good in order to do it, but it can be done.

 

He was not barely able to stand.

He nearly collapsed. Then he did collapse after a brief fight.

 

As I said, if Jordan had just come out and said the Aiel were superhuman I would have no problem with them because then in the context of a world where superhumans exist everything the Aiel do is believable.

I don't see why RJ should pander to your idiocy and refusal to accept that some people are just bloody good fighters. They are built on a very plausible foundation, and if they are exaggerated it is no more than any number of other elements that you do not insist on being told are supernatural in origin. Rand's overnight blademastery, Lan's incredible skil, that of any Warder, Galad's skill, you accept these things without a second thought, but complain and whine incessantly about the Aiel when they are in fact just as plausible as any of these other elements.

 

The Aiel have no qualifier, they are just basic humans.

Who live in a hostile environment, and train incessantly to be the best fghters they can be, and select leaders based on merit, not birthright. The quality of a human can vary immensely.

 

I will note at this point that you are no longer really arguing against my original position.

Your original position was "wah, wah, I hate the Aiel. No horsies, pajamas, wah, wah." Not much to argue against, but what you put forward has been refuted. The Aiel are built on a very plausible foundation, and if you wish to say that they are exaggerated to the point where you need it to possess a supernatural element, but cannot say why they are so completely ridiculous, nor why other elements without the supernatural tag aren't a problem, then you don't have much of an argument. Just whining.

 

you have implicitly accepted my case.

No, I haven't. I still see no reason why the Aiel should be "loathed", nor why they need to have some element of the supernatural in their makeup. I still reject your case. Even if it has moved beyond what was stated in your initial post. I might as well say your talking about something different, and so that means you have implicitly accepted my case. They are built on very plausible foundations. They are not all conquering demi-gods, they are humans who have grown up in an extreme environment, and thus been pushed to extremes.

 

What is that thing you keep saying again?

The burden of proof is one you.

 

But I have, several times.

No, you haven't. Not even close. You say it is worse, but you provide no reason why. When challenged, you still provide no reason why. You say that a spear is an inferior weapon. Then best you canmanage for a defence is that a sarissa or similar lacks mobility, when we are not talking about anything that big. We are talking about something about the size of a sword, and why that should be less useful in a melee that a sword. Especially when they are better trained with them than their opponents are with a sword.

 

What if he wants to stay behind walls?

Climb over them. See the Stone of Tear.

 

a far better way to get mobility and speed is simply to sit on a horse.

No, it isn't. They can move faster than a horse. They can travel longer distances at higher speeds than a horse. And mobility is hugely important. It means you can be where the enemy doesn't expect you to be. They will hold back forces to protect places you are nowhere near because they don't know where you are. So they water down their forces. So you can defeat them in detail. Overwhelm them in any given engagement. Outflank them. Choose ground that favours you - often that will be ground that negates the advantage of cavalry. Stand on top of a hill, and horses will gwet worn out the the force of the charge spent in clibing up it. It also gives you the range advantage for your arrows, and better visibility. Take large numbers of the enemies forces by surprise and you can overwhelm and kill them. You do not need to angage them in his terms. In fact, any good commander would know that it is best if you can force him to react to you, to carry out the fight on your terms.

 

you chose to skip over because you have no counter

Or because I cannot be bothered to deal with every little bit of idiocy you spout. How they would be deployed would depend on many factors. Who the commander was, his objectives, the resources available to him. The Aiel might be at a disadvantage in certain situations, so any competent commander would avoid those situations. A competent commander might be quite capable of winning while for the most part avoiding full scale pitched battles in favour of ambushes, smaller battles, and make use of the manoeuvrability advantage his troops present to outflank the enemy at any given opportunity, continually keep him off balance by striking at his rear, and so on. It doesn't take a genius to see it, you just refuse to accept the validity of any counter-point to your limited way of thinking.

 

knights fought afoot often because their mounts died.

Yes, and often because territory didn't favour horses. The Aiel should foce the enemy to give battle on ground that doesn't favour horses, in that case. Thus the enemy has no cavalry.

 

Bottom line was that for a least a few moments, one unarmed, unarmoured Aiel was owning 10 fully armed and armoured professional soldiers, and that is just very difficult for me to accept of a normal human with no superpowers.

Bottom line is, it's possible. For one highly trained martial artist to take on a bunch of armed thugs and win? Absolutely. Most people are overinclined to place artificial constraints on what is possible.

 

Yes, they are stoic because they know they can effortlessly overcome any challenge, because they are superhuman.

They can't and don't effortlessly overcome every challenge. You're not even bothering with the books any more.

 

I made known a single thing that annoyed me.

That, on closer inspection, bears rather less resemblance to the reality of the books, and to real life, than you would have us believe.

 

You are simply a fanboy who will brook no criticism

Wrong, I will accept valid criticism. I don't put much credence in the rantings of someone who cannot even pick up that the Aiel are human.

 

I also find it funny you think my knowledge of warfare is lacking.

It is.

 

What I said was directed at a comment that clearly referred to my original post.

No, it wasn't. It was very clearly about everything you said.

 

So I am obliged to change my mind?

No, but if you refuse to listen and change your mind as a result of the evidence, or provide any evidence of your own, then why bother? Your posts are increasingly made up of insults, whining, a refusal to address the point, and the poor-liitle-me, hard done by act that is foolong no-one with any sense.

 

I was never the arrogant one

A laughable claim. You just claim everyone is being "intentionally disingenuous" when they point out you're a tosser.

 

If you're always on the backfoot

The point is, they are not on the back foot, their opponents are. They have better leaders. This has been said over and over. Yes, if they were being forced to react, they would be at a disadvantage, but they continually force the enemy to react to them.

 

How can you achieve your objective of killing the king?

Lure him into battle on ground that favours you.

 

and if they advance

What if they retreat a bit? You seem to be fixated on the Aiel as standing their getting mowed down, rather than being proactive, rather than having any tactical sense. War is about more than just having two armies line up on different sides of a field and charging. Continually beat the enemy, force him to retreat, only engage when circumstances favbour you, cut off parts of his army and kill it a bit at a time, and you demoralise him, give yourselves an aura of indestructibility, of invincibility. Fight in a forest. Fight from a hilltop. Sneal into his town when there are no guards on the walls, or take out the few that are there. Attack the flanks and the rear whenever possible. In short, do everything a good commander should and you will win.

 

Now, the Aiel are not superhuman. They are human. They have not been shown to be anything other than extremely well trained, extremely well led, extrmely competent soldiers. If they are slightly exaggerated, then it is no more so than other elements that you do not demand have a "supernatural" tag stuck on them.

[Miltiades]

Mr Ares, I'm not going to both to respond to most of your drivel this time.

 

However I would like you to to answer a few points.

 

You say my posts are made up of insults. Well, lets see, I have so far told you that I respect your intelligence less because of your use of ad hominem attacks in a specified case. Not even a direct insult, I never said you were unintelligent, only that I now respected your intelligence less for a very specific and (I believe reasonable) cause. You on the other hand have repeatedly called me stupid, an idiot and a tosser. It isn't just that you're being dense now, it is that what you are saying is actually the exact and precise opposite of the truth. Answer me this? Reading through again, do you truly believe I am the one who has been insulting?

 

Lets face it, you skip over the bits you cant answer. You used Mat as an example of something equally unbelievable yet Mat has supernatural powers, the precise thing I said the Aiel would need to make them believable. So you are just out and out wrong. There is no two ways about it, you spoke in haste and made a mistake, but you won't admit it. Could you please defend this point and say why your comparison remains valid despite this? And please make it an actual answer not the usual evasion or distortions you've used so far?

 

 

 

Also could you answer this?

The burden of proof is one you.

 

Exactly how is that an answer, you're just blagging your way through what I said. I gave my reasons, you keep stating I don't give reasons or evidence but I've been doing that all along and you choose to respond with flippant dismissals like this, no counter argument, just one line of irrelevant baiting. Tell me, as you keep going on about how you ''refute'' what I say, is this the sort of thing you're talking about?

 

 

Also this

Not in the slightest bit relevant.

 

The fact that the wetlands have access to military technology far and above anything that the Aiel have is not in any way relevant? Again you say you refute my points, is this what you mean? Simply stating that the point is invalid while giving no reasons?

 

To be honest I do find it quite funny how the insults are being scattered ever more liberally through your posts. All the while you tell me I'm the arrogant one and I'm the one who is being insulting. Maybe you find being shown up again and again to be an implicit insult to your intelligence, who knows? I can see you are one of those people who thinks disagreement with his view is a personal affront. I've been nothing but civil in the face of your increasing hostility, anybody who reads back through our actual posts will see that it is you who has raised the bar for aggression and disrespect at every turn, and I have declined to be baited by you.

[Miltiades]

Miltiades, I maintain that you are having a temper-tantrum, nothing you've shown me tells me any different.

 

If you continue to tell me that I'm being "intentionally disengenuous" I will begin to refer to you by that name since you're so clearly fond of that phrase. I assure you that I am not naive, intentionally or otherwise.

 

As to your point about telling another poster to "shove it", I used to be involved in wonderful reasonable, debates in high school and anyone who told another person to, in your words, shove it, was thrown out. Not acceptable bahviour in a debate, not called having a spine.

 

As to the topic at hand, personally I find that the Aiel are perfectly plausible in the context that RJ has written them. AS Hy just pointed out in the post above, cavalry warfare is not the be all and end all. The Aiel clearly are not stupid and will devise tactics to deal with any cavalry sent against them suitably.

 

The online dictionary you used to look up the word disingenuous gave you a much more rarely understood and accepted definition. By disingenuous I meant not that you were naive but that you are being insincere. You know full well I have shown respect to every poster who has answered in a reasonable fashion and shown me the same courtesy, even if they disagreed. It is only those who felt the need to lace their answers with scorn, ridicule and insults that received any disrespect from me. Of course the point is that you know all this already, you are choosing to ignore the facts, that is why I call you disingenuous; because you are not being genuine.

 

''nothing you've shown me tells me any different''? You mean nothing I could have shown would have convinced you? Lets be honest here, that is why you are not even defending the assertion anymore but merely stating that you will not change your mind no matter what. You have no argument against my defense of my behavior, but you'll stick to the temper tantrum explanation though you know it to be false. Disingenuity.

 

You can make your excuses all you like, the fact remains that I have not disrespected anyone who did not disrespect me first. Until you show where I did that you're claim of me throwing a temper tantrum will remain the empty, ridiculous, farce that it is.

[Braus]

Mat doesnt have supernatural powers, hes just lucky. Luck doesnt increase his skill with weapons, its not like hes doing completly random moves with his arms while having his eyes closed and jumping around on one leg in a circle, killing and hitting anything that comes in his way. For example:

 

1Dice

2Cards

3Stones

 

 

[Miltiades]

 

And sorry, but the "cavalry is the be-all and end-all of warfare" viewpoint is just ignorant.  In the right conditions, cavalry will decimate infantry.  No one is arguing against this.  What we are arguing is that those conditions did not exist.

 

That is not what I have ever said. My position is that against an enemy that exclusively fields skirmishing light infantry, cavalry would be absolutely devastating. I argue that since this is the case it is unrealistic that the Aiel kick everyone's ass all over the place with little to no effort.

 

In such a situation, every battle would be a desperate attempt to avoid finding yourself in front of the enemy cavalry, and the Aiel would certainly have a healthy respect if not outright fear of what cavalry could do to them if they ever made a mistake. As I've said, loose skirmishing troops caught in the open by cavalry get obliterated and then mercilessly cut down to a man. But this isn't the case, the Aiel are blase and even contemptuous of wetlander martial skills for the most part and seem to view fighting from a horse as being faintly ridiculous.

[Hybrid]

That is not what I have ever said.

Perhaps.  In which case, I was confusing some of your remarks with some of the other posters taking your side, like Epic.

 

I argue that since this is the case it is unrealistic that the Aiel kick everyone's ass all over the place with little to no effort.

I've provided examples of the Aiel losing.  I've also explained why the wetlands were at a disadvantage and why I think that the Aiel will slowly cease to be effective.

 

In such a situation, every battle would be a desperate attempt to avoid finding yourself in front of the enemy cavalry, and the Aiel would certainly have a healthy respect if not outright fear of what cavalry could do to them if they ever made a mistake. As I've said, loose skirmishing troops caught in the open by cavalry get obliterated and then mercilessly cut down to a man. But this isn't the case, the Aiel are blase and even contemptuous of wetlander martial skills for the most part and seem to view fighting from a horse as being faintly ridiculous.

A few points.

1) The Aiel have never actually been "caught in the open" by anyone.  As multiple people have pointed out, they employ scouts and wear camouflage.  They also move very fast for a very long time.  They are both aware of their surroundings and very hard to track down.

2) Mr Ares just provided an example of the Aiel standing up to cavalry and the tactics they used.

3) The Aiel do not fear death.  If cavalry charged them, they would take the losses necessary to break the charge.

3.5) The Aiel would maybe fear cavalry if the cavalry were used effectively, but they aren't.  Like I said before, Rand's POVs during battle scenes makes it pretty clear that many of the Cairhienin and Tairen officers simply want to throw their cavalry at the enemy without even stopping to consider the circumstances.

4) If a couple of farmboys can train for less than a year and be better than the majority of the wetlander fighters, than I think the Aiel - who are in peak physical condition and trained in martial arts practically from birth -  have the right to scoff at wetlander martial abilities.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, I'm not going to both to respond to most of your drivel this time.

Just admit it, you can't.

 

Reading through again, do you truly believe I am the one who has been insulting?

You have been.

 

Lets face it, you skip over the bits you cant answer.

And you don't?

You used Mat as an example of something equally unbelievable yet Mat has supernatural powers

And even when he does things unrelated to his supernatural powers? Like beating Galad and Gawyn? How about their skills, or Rand's instant blademastery?

 

Also could you answer this?

The burden of proof is on you.

You said they were implausible, so much so that they needed a supernatural explanation, when so many other equally (or even moreso) implausible things don't, the burden of proof lies with you to proove that they need this explanation. That they couldn't be human. You either don't bother with reasons or explanations, or they are inadequate, and you can't back them up. You consistently refuse to back up your argument to the extent required. For example, you say they have rubbish equipment - not inferior, rubbish - and then you say spears are inferior to swrods in a melee. If we were talking about something 3m long, you'd have a point, that would be very unwieldy in close combat. But something no bigger than a sword? Used by someone who has trained with it for years, to an exceedingly high standard? Why is this such a vastly inferior weapon that you would expect them to be slaughtered by untrained peasants or idiotic nobles? Ridiculous.

 

The fact that the wetlands have access to military technology far and above anything that the Aiel have is not in any way relevant?

You have not shown that to be true. You have shown that at least some people in the west are capable of building catapults, not that they are common knowledge or that the Aiel don't have them or that they would be effective anti-personnel weapons against the Aiel without the adjustments the AS made - exploding rocks - in the TR. You have not shown, either, that technology is so massive an advantage that it would overcome the Aiel advantages in leadership, discipline, ability to act in concert, quality of soldier, training, mobility, psychology, morale. Virtually every advantage lies with the Aiel, and those they don't have could be countered. In short, it is not implausible that they would win, it is exceedingly likely. They would win consistenly.

 

Now, are you going to ditch the whining and the hard done by act and the evasions, and the inadequate reasons, and the implicit assumption that anyone who disagrees that the Aiel are ridiculous is thick, or are you just going to shut up entirely? You started this thread with the assumption that the Aiel could not achieve what they do, and set out to "prove" it, and have failed. You should have started out by asking how the Aiel do what they do, then you might have understood how they are able to.

[The Doctor]

It's not even that far fetched that they could be muscular and long distance runners.  When I was fighting I was muscular, and running was part of my training, along with calisthenics, skipping rope and bag work. On a heavy person who eats mostly meat and fiber, push ups, pull-ups, and squats will build quite a bit of muscle.  By no means was I a world class athlete, but I could maintain a 6 mile an hour pace easily.  Aiel, who train from a young age, should have an even easier time doing so.  Mathematically they should have no difficulty covering 60 miles in a day, which I believe is more than what they are actually said to cover.  And for one man to defeat 10 men in hand to hand combat when the men he is facing are smaller, more heavily encumbered, and less experienced than he is is not unbelievable.  Armor in that situation could actually be a DISadvantage

[Braus]

Kinda said it before now, but i think you have missunderstood or forgotten parts of the book Mili.

 

About the Aiel wars, there is alot of info in the books about them. 4 clans went over the mountains i think, and it happened fast like it always is with Aiel. This is a world where the only means of communication would be by pidgeon or couriers, and that would still take along time to reach the right ears and i bet the Aiel was proberly even at the doorsteps of Carhien before they even thought about sending for help.

Once they burnt down Carhien they moved on, after the king who had fled? which eventually led them to the tar valon area. The war had proberly been going on for months before the so called "union army"(think they call it covenant or something, but english isnt my first language) came into being. And that army was never that extremly big. I think i remember reading somewhere that it was abit over 200k altogther, which the Aiel proberly easily outnumbered? 4 clans? And after reading the Lan Chapter in New Spring it seems that it rather was alot of skrimishers between that army, and Aiel groups that was looking for Laman that kept occurring, not huge battlefields with hundreds of thousands facing each other. Once Laman was dead, the Aiel returned to the waste.

 

The rest of the battles with the Aiel has never shown any scenario that you would like to see. Im betting you want to see a scenario where lets say 100k wetlanders face 100k Aiel on a open field. Because then you could either get proof that the Aiel is extremly powerful, or you could get proof how good cavalry is. Nothing like this have happened though, i still dont get what parts you think is so overpowered about the Aiel. Asked it many times now, and well im not here to join the majority in this thread who disagree with you, but since this thread is supposed to be a discussion, im just argueing that no such event have occured in the books where the Aiel make out to be what you personlly think they are.

 

 

 

Anyway, outside of all the arguements. I still aint sure i buy this whole Cavalry > Aiel on open ground. At least not unless the Cavalry is trained. And i wouldnt call Aiel infantery, they are extremly adaptable to situations which their different weapons show and are in no way slow.

Someone like a roman with a big shield and a shortsword, id call infantery. But someone who's whole being is about movement, reflexs etc, i wouldnt call infantery. They can use their bows... They can throw one of their numerous spears or just use it... And as a last resort use their knifes or their martial arts. And they got a shield that is excellent and light enough to parry with.

 

Honestly, thinking myself into a scenario where i was carrying a sword and was facing an aiel, id be abit scared. Not only could they possible trap my sword with their shield and stab at me, they could also at any given time throw it and unless i 2 would use a shield(which proberly would hurt my sword and which i havent seen yet anyone really do in the books) i would have a very hard time deflecting a spear throw so up close.