Why do so many readers hate Path of Daggers?

[Rael]

I've been reading the WoT since 1999 and PoD was the first new book that I had the pleasure to read. Since then, I have had the pleasure of re-reading the series four times and I believe I am currently on my fifth with some of the books. Anyways, one thing I have never understood is why so many Amazon reviewers hate Path of Daggers. I've always found PoD to be equal of the earlier novels and contains a lot scenes that I like to re-read. I just think that some reviewers fail to understand that the Wheel of Time was not able to maintain the same narrow scope of EotW, TGH and TDR. Instead it (WoT) has become a much more rich and complex world filled with a number of unique cultures (Aiel, Seanchan, Randlanders, The Sea Folk, etc). Because of Jordan's writing style and not being one major even or climax one after another, I've enjoyed scenes like Nynaeve losing her block, the cleansing of saidin, Rand going crazy with Callandor so much more. Just frustrating that so many others seem to want Jordan to maintain the same scope that he had with EotW, since it's obvious to me at least that The Wheel of Time is much more than an adventure/coming of age fantasy series.

 

[Thanatos]

The cleansing of saidin is in Winters Heart, not the Path of Daggers.  But anyway....

 

The reasons I don't like Path of Daggers as much as the other books in the series is fairly simple.  Not enough chapters with Rand, the wording of the descriptions is not as refined as in, say, Lord of Chaos, or The Shadow Rising.  The climax of the book is not that interesting either.  I admit I like Nynaeve losing her block, but other than that, there aren't that many high points.  May just be me though.

[Rael]

The cleansing of saidin is in Winters Heart, not the Path of Daggers.  But anyway....

 

The reasons I don't like Path of Daggers as much as the other books in the series is fairly simple.  Not enough chapters with Rand, the wording of the descriptions is not as refined as in, say, Lord of Chaos, or The Shadow Rising.  The climax of the book is not that interesting either.  I admit I like Nynaeve losing her block, but other than that, there aren't that many high points.  May just be me though.

 

I know it's in WH. I am just commenting on the general progression of the series from a more narrow to a broader scope. Those scenes are from CoS, PoD and WH respectively.

[MatsLuck]

PoD is the one without Mat. That's why. ;)  I like all the books, but I gotta have Mat. Perrin and Faile could disappear for the last one (or three, whatever). That wouldn't bother me except that I want to see what happens to Berelain. And I want to see Morgase outed. I like her, just want to see reactions when people find out who she is.

[CupofDice]

Yeah, the fact that Mat is missing was a mistake. Even one chapter or half of one would have been good enough. Also Rand complains the whole time about how he is not doing anything in the fight. So pretty much a good chunk of the book is Rand whining, and Rand being paranoid about his Ashaman guards. It was just a poor book. Not as bad as CoT, but CoT, WH, and PoD could have made one book by themselves (albeit a huge one).

[Arath Faringal]

I usually sum it up as too many adjectives, not enough verbs.

[Rael]

Yeah, the fact that Mat is missing was a mistake. Even one chapter or half of one would have been good enough. Also Rand complains the whole time about how he is not doing anything in the fight. So pretty much a good chunk of the book is Rand whining, and Rand being paranoid about his Ashaman guards. It was just a poor book. Not as bad as CoT, but CoT, WH, and PoD could have made one book by themselves (albeit a huge one).

 

See..I don't think Rand whining about the Ashaman is a bad thing. I think it just reflects his degrading mental state and that he needs to learn to trust. It's good character development, in my opinion.

 

I usually sum it up as too many adjectives, not enough verbs.

 

That's another thing that's never really bothered me about RJ. I like to have a mental picture of what people are wearing and the surroundings. If you read a novel, such as War and Peace, it's packed full of adjectives to give readers the impression of what it was like in the Napoleonic Wars.

[Mr Ares]

I just think that some reviewers fail to understand that the Wheel of Time was not able to maintain the same narrow scope of EotW, TGH and TDR. Instead it (WoT) has become a much more rich and complex world filled with a number of unique cultures (Aiel, Seanchan, Randlanders, The Sea Folk, etc). Just frustrating that so many others seem to want Jordan to maintain the same scope that he had with EotW, since it's obvious to me at least that The Wheel of Time is much more than an adventure/coming of age fantasy series.

Wrong. ACoS, LoC, TSR, TFoH and WH all score above PoD, if not always by much, and they contain that spreading you so admire. So you fail to address why it is PoD in particular that is so disliked. This review of the book is from forum member Werthead:

The Path of Daggers was originally published in October 1998 and was released two and a half years after the previous volume (which had ended on a cliffhanger), the longest gap between books in the series at that time. As a result, expectations for this book were high. When the book finally arrived, people were taken aback by its slimness (at least compared to other books in the series) and its failure to address that cliffhanger from the prior volume. Reviews of the book were negative and even today some fans continue to cite this as the weakest book in the series (although the majority agree that that honour goes to the tenth book). For a series that had almost been immune to criticism up to this point, this book marked a serious turning point for the worse.

 

The book opens in the aftermath of events in A Crown of Swords. Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, has been proclaimed King of Illian after killing the Forsaken Sammael. His satisfaction is short-lived, however. The Seanchan have returned in great force and in a blitzkrieg campaign lasting several weeks have swept through the south-west of the continent, conquering the kingdom of Tarabon and capturing the cities of Amador and Ebou Dar (the capitals of Amadicia and Altara, respectively) in rapid succession. Already fearing they might march on Illian next, Rand concocts a plan to bottle them up in Ebou Dar, but is unaware that there are those in his own ranks who are preparing to move against him.

 

Meanwhile, in Ghealdan Perrin makes contact with Queen Alliandre as part of his mission to track down and neutralise the increasingly insane and dangerous 'Prophet of the Dragon', Masema. At the same time, the leaders of the Borderlands have led a vast host southwards for an unknown reason. Nynaeve, Elayne and their loose and fractious alliance of Sea Folk Windfinders, Aes Sedai and Kin have recovered the Bowl of Winds from Ebou Dar and now have to use it to restore normal weather to the world, unaware of the consequences of their actions. And in the White Tower Elaida walks a fine line as she is blackmailed by Alviarin into doing things that will shatter the sisterhood, whilst her secret agents continue their hunt for the Black Ajah.

 

A plot summary of Path of Daggers sounds exciting, and the news that the book features a significant military showdown between Rand and the Seanchan should be impressive. However, The Path of Daggers is beset by numerous problems that prevent it from being fully enjoyable. First off, the level of filler in this book is much worse than any previous volume. There are several chapters where characters are riding along arguing with one another, or discussing the plot, or making it clear how much they hate one another. These points are slammed home again and again by Robert Jordan for no clear purpose. The battles between Rand and the Seanchan are intriguing and the messy ending to the engagement is an important moment in the series, but it comes far too late in the book. Perrin's story proceeds at an absolute crawl and he barely has any screen-time in the book, whilst Mat has none. Jordan's point that Mat is recovering from his wounds and thus isn't doing anything interesting in the story at this moment is well-taken, but at the same time the ambiguity of Mat's fate in the prior volume was part of what made the book's ending powerful and interesting. It being completely ignored for four and a half years until Book 9 was annoying. However, re-reading the series now this isn't so much of a problem.

 

Up until The Path of Daggers, the structural and writing problems with the series could to some extent be ignored because the story was still compelling and the reader was encouraged to read on no matter what. However, at this point and through the next two books these problems start to actually interfere with the readability of the books. The pace slows to a crawl and events that would have been covered in a few chapters in previous books now span entire novels. For some reason Jordan ignored the basic writing maxim that as you build up to a series finale you have to increase the pace and intensity of events, and as a result the series becomes somewhat more difficult to read in-depth from this point on.

 

The Path of Daggers (**½) doesn't suffer from quite so many problems as it did on first release, but it still represents a significant failure in both writing and editing that makes it a shadow of the book it could have been. The book is available in the UK from Orbit and in the USA from Tor.

Some of the important points are highlighted. Slow pace, lots of filler, redundancy, repetition, redundancy and repetition. A long wait, not addressing Mat's fate after the end of the previous book, even in passing. Little Perrin. Dragging things out. Path of Daggers could have been an exciting book, from the summary, and the fact that a previously critic-proof series takes a battering from this book forward is indicative of something.

[Graendals favourite]

Adding two cents, I think Path of Daggers, as the later books in general, have more potential to be less likable, though I do not think this is a bad thing. RJ has a story to tell, and not all parts of it are meant to please the reader, I think. One advantage to a long series is that the author is able to have passages in it they know their readers will not necessarily like to read, but that they think they should nevertheless get a chance to read. So part of many disliking PoD is probably RJ telling his story and not trying to please as much as before. PoD simply comes in a time of the story, when unpleasant things happen, and RJ wants to include the points of view of a great many people. That is my take on it, at least, though I don't really assess the separate novels as separate at all, I think PoD contributed greatly to the story.

 

Like Moiraine says in the Eye of the World, the journey has become more difficult.

[Titan Orion]

I must admit there isnt much that is good in Path of Daggers. We get a lot of Perrin but I feel that Perrin as a character has a hell of a lot of potential that he just never gets to use. Early in the series we get his animal rage, which is good, but later he begins to shun his Wolfbrother side-understandable, but fatal to his character-and aside from that I feel that his coldness later on, when Faile has been captured, was good in bits but not there enough. I think if RJ had put more into Perrins dilemma about the hammer and axe it would have been good; we should have seen more of him liking the axe. Yeah, and also the encounter with Slayer was one of my favorite Perrin bits because its the only time-the ONLY time-we see him encounter one of the best bad guys. Call me old fashioned if you want but I love it when a cool bad guy has his time, and those times dont ever seem to involve Perrin. I wish they would.

 

I remember Path of Daggers usually for the Bowl of the Winds being dealt with. Watch this now, I bet it isnt even in PoD haha

[Rael]

I just think that some reviewers fail to understand that the Wheel of Time was not able to maintain the same narrow scope of EotW, TGH and TDR. Instead it (WoT) has become a much more rich and complex world filled with a number of unique cultures (Aiel, Seanchan, Randlanders, The Sea Folk, etc). Just frustrating that so many others seem to want Jordan to maintain the same scope that he had with EotW, since it's obvious to me at least that The Wheel of Time is much more than an adventure/coming of age fantasy series.

Wrong. ACoS, LoC, TSR, TFoH and WH all score above PoD, if not always by much, and they contain that spreading you so admire. So you fail to address why it is PoD in particular that is so disliked. This review of the book is from forum member Werthead:

The Path of Daggers was originally published in October 1998 and was released two and a half years after the previous volume (which had ended on a cliffhanger), the longest gap between books in the series at that time. As a result, expectations for this book were high. When the book finally arrived, people were taken aback by its slimness (at least compared to other books in the series) and its failure to address that cliffhanger from the prior volume. Reviews of the book were negative and even today some fans continue to cite this as the weakest book in the series (although the majority agree that that honour goes to the tenth book). For a series that had almost been immune to criticism up to this point, this book marked a serious turning point for the worse.

 

The book opens in the aftermath of events in A Crown of Swords. Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, has been proclaimed King of Illian after killing the Forsaken Sammael. His satisfaction is short-lived, however. The Seanchan have returned in great force and in a blitzkrieg campaign lasting several weeks have swept through the south-west of the continent, conquering the kingdom of Tarabon and capturing the cities of Amador and Ebou Dar (the capitals of Amadicia and Altara, respectively) in rapid succession. Already fearing they might march on Illian next, Rand concocts a plan to bottle them up in Ebou Dar, but is unaware that there are those in his own ranks who are preparing to move against him.

 

Meanwhile, in Ghealdan Perrin makes contact with Queen Alliandre as part of his mission to track down and neutralise the increasingly insane and dangerous 'Prophet of the Dragon', Masema. At the same time, the leaders of the Borderlands have led a vast host southwards for an unknown reason. Nynaeve, Elayne and their loose and fractious alliance of Sea Folk Windfinders, Aes Sedai and Kin have recovered the Bowl of Winds from Ebou Dar and now have to use it to restore normal weather to the world, unaware of the consequences of their actions. And in the White Tower Elaida walks a fine line as she is blackmailed by Alviarin into doing things that will shatter the sisterhood, whilst her secret agents continue their hunt for the Black Ajah.

 

A plot summary of Path of Daggers sounds exciting, and the news that the book features a significant military showdown between Rand and the Seanchan should be impressive. However, The Path of Daggers is beset by numerous problems that prevent it from being fully enjoyable. First off, the level of filler in this book is much worse than any previous volume. There are several chapters where characters are riding along arguing with one another, or discussing the plot, or making it clear how much they hate one another. These points are slammed home again and again by Robert Jordan for no clear purpose. The battles between Rand and the Seanchan are intriguing and the messy ending to the engagement is an important moment in the series, but it comes far too late in the book. Perrin's story proceeds at an absolute crawl and he barely has any screen-time in the book, whilst Mat has none. Jordan's point that Mat is recovering from his wounds and thus isn't doing anything interesting in the story at this moment is well-taken, but at the same time the ambiguity of Mat's fate in the prior volume was part of what made the book's ending powerful and interesting. It being completely ignored for four and a half years until Book 9 was annoying. However, re-reading the series now this isn't so much of a problem.

 

Up until The Path of Daggers, the structural and writing problems with the series could to some extent be ignored because the story was still compelling and the reader was encouraged to read on no matter what. However, at this point and through the next two books these problems start to actually interfere with the readability of the books. The pace slows to a crawl and events that would have been covered in a few chapters in previous books now span entire novels. For some reason Jordan ignored the basic writing maxim that as you build up to a series finale you have to increase the pace and intensity of events, and as a result the series becomes somewhat more difficult to read in-depth from this point on.

 

The Path of Daggers (**½) doesn't suffer from quite so many problems as it did on first release, but it still represents a significant failure in both writing and editing that makes it a shadow of the book it could have been. The book is available in the UK from Orbit and in the USA from Tor.

Some of the important points are highlighted. Slow pace, lots of filler, redundancy, repetition, redundancy and repetition. A long wait, not addressing Mat's fate after the end of the previous book, even in passing. Little Perrin. Dragging things out. Path of Daggers could have been an exciting book, from the summary, and the fact that a previously critic-proof series takes a battering from this book forward is indicative of something.

 

Good post and the reviewer does really point out the flaws with PoD. Nonetheless, I still like PoD a good bit. While it has a slower pace and  he could pick it up a good bit, I quite enjoyed Rand (Time for Iron, Cup of Sleep), Elayne (Crimsonthorn chapter), Egwene and the Black Ajah hunt in this book. One thing I have noticed about the later books, starting with PoD and perhaps even CoS (six chapters of Perrin) is that the beginning chapters are really drawn out. For example, the whole Bowl of the Winds bit should not have been six chapters. I believe that leaving Tarsin Palace and arriving at the farm should have been one chapter, using the Bowl another chapter and fleeing the third chapter. I am glad that Jordan has expanded his scope but there was a definite happy medium. Nonetheless, PoD is not nearly as painful as it was back when I started reading the series and I don't mind the slower pace because I know there is Knife of Dreams at the end of the tunnel.

 

Anyways, CoS is 4.5 stars, PoD is 3.5 stars, WH is 4 stars, CoT is 2.5 stars and KoD is 5 stars for me.

[dholm]

It reads a lot better as part of a whole rather than as a stand-alone volume.

[Rael]

It reads a lot better as part of a whole rather than as a stand-alone volume.

 

Aye, as others have said PoD is a good companion book with WH. They flow right into each other. Nonethless, the wait between CoS & PoD and PoD & WH was agonizing, thus making the readers bitter. I've never really had too much of a problem with waiting, I just read other books in my library and then when a new book comes out, I do a quick re-read.

[Theodor89]

The cool and gritty battle with the Seanchan completely saves the book in my view.

[Owners.Inc]

For reason the return of the Seanchan felt a bit forced, even though we've seen it coming for a while. I guess, that after so much stuff happens at the end of ACoS, I expected PoD to carry the same intensity.

 

Compared to CoT, this was awesome. Then again, that's not saying much.

 

My favorite scenes from PoD:

Elyane and Aviendha fighting the Seanchan at the gateway.

Rand's fight against the Seanchan.

 

Hated the clearing hte weather part. Thought it should've only taken a chapter. I mean, cleansing all of saidin only took 1 chapter (though a long one), but useing 1 stinking terangreal takes 3 chapters? Not a big Mat fan, so didn't miss him. I felt that Perrin was finally gonna be able to work his magic a little now that he had his sub-plot thing going on (I like the Emond's Field trolloc thing with Perrin) but then it becomes Faile-centeric. Rescuing an annoying princess doesn't quite compare to facing-off against a Forsaken, kidnapping an Empress' daughter, cleaning up after the DO, organizing a rebellion and so on...

[Muad Cheade]

I rather liked Path of Daggers. Obviusly, Rand's campaign against the Seanchan was one of my favorite parts. I agree with the original post, I don't know why so many readers dislike PoD. I have a suspicion that it might be because the focus of the book transitioned from the actual characters to the effectsof their actions on a global scale if you understand what I'm saying. For example, it changed from what Rand's personal dealings with Aviendha from TSR to assembling a multinational force to combat the Seanchan and how that effected Southeastern Randland.

[Rael]

I rather liked Path of Daggers. Obviusly, Rand's campaign against the Seanchan was one of my favorite parts. I agree with the original post, I don't know why so many readers dislike PoD. I have a suspicion that it might be because the focus of the book transitioned from the actual characters to the effectsof their actions on a global scale if you understand what I'm saying. For example, it changed from what Rand's personal dealings with Aviendha from TSR to assembling a multinational force to combat the Seanchan and how that effected Southeastern Randland.

 

My top five PoD chapters are:

 

1. A Time for Iron (Rand going crazy using Callandor, enogh said there.

2. The Extra Bit (Black Ajah hunting and Logain bonding Toveine. Great chapter.)

3. A Cup of Sleep (Not as exciting of a conclusion as Dumai's Wells but still very solid and sad, too.)

4. The Bargain (Merana ripping Rand's head off and the Maidens socking it to him. Always enjoyed this chapter)

5. Fog of War, Storm of Battle (Good Seanchan POV in this chapter and Rand getting injured while Alil and Anaiyella talk about murdering him is a fun moment)

 

All in all, this book has some really solid Rand chapters and Egwene really started to become more likeable in this book for me. I could never stand her in the earlier books.

[Titan Orion]

The cool and gritty battle with the Seanchan completely saves the book in my view.

 

Yep. Rand thought he had lost his first loss, which I thought was brilliant. And when he went crazy with Callandor... one of my favorite Rand moments, definitely. I love heroes who have drawbacks, and I think Rands mental issues make fr a great read.

[CTM]

I don't hate Path of Daggers, but it was disappointing. I just finished my second read through and i have some thoughts about it.

 

1. Rand spends too much time organizing a battle against helpless Seachan. The Seachan may be a challenge later on, but this battle is set up to be completely one sided, and then it is. The only real threat to Rand is Rand. After previous books where Rand fights Chosen or is rescued against large odds,  battles that give Rands army every tactical advantage and lack in immediate importance strike me as a let down.   

 

2. Perrin and Elayne are beginning long plot arcs that span several books. Almost nothing of note happens in either plot for most of the book. Perrin gathers a few side characters into his army and thinks about how little he knows women. Elayne travels home to begin a long contest to determine who leads Andor. the Black sister mystery is a set up for a latter book, just as Failes kidnapping is.

 

3. Egwene builds up her support among the rebels and strong arms the rebel hall. While i enjoy most of this plot, very little happens externally. The rebels are continuing to march. They have a brief meeting with some lords and stop marching. Halima isn't an imediate threat. Jordan has to throw in the part where they travel to Tar Valon out of sync with the books time line to give readers something at the end.

 

4. People who Like Matt put the book down bitter that nothing is said about him in this book.

 

 

To summarize, There just isn't need or desperation in most of the characters plots. ruling Andor would be nice, but Elayne has put that off so often in the earlier books that it's importance is diminished on a greater scale. Perrin is doing a favour for Rand that seems to mean very little to him. Rand isn't invested in the fight against the seachan other than to delay them for awhile. the battle is just a convenient time to kill off some people who he doesn't trust. Egwene's success in getting the rebel witches to move is followed up by nothing in the next book IIRC. 

 

 

 

 

[elmis]

tPoD is my least favourite book, after CoT. It's too much filler, and not enough story in my opinion. It seems like half the book is getting to the farm and the different groups of women sniffing and snorting at eachother.

 

Getting to the farm and using the bowl - with the escape to Caemlyn could have been done in two chapters. As far as I can remember, there isn't even a single Mat chapter in the book - which was a major cliffhanger from aCoS.

 

Rands fight with the Seanchan is alright, but there is very little progress when it comes to any of the major storylines.

 

Also, Nyn loses her block in aCoS. ;)

[The Doctor]

POD is by far my least favorite in the series. I liked CoT much better, although I haven't reread that or KoD recently I'm pretty sure we still haven't found out what happened with that pack of darkhounds.  PoD I think sewed some seeds, but it felt as though there was no plot progression in it, even though things did happen.  The climax was anti-climactic too.

[Kaznen]

I waited a year and a half (read the WoT books in summer of '97) to find out what happened to Mat only to have to wait 3 more years.  That was my biggest gripe.

 

If some one started reading WoT now they wouldn't have the same issue with PoD that I had.

 

BTW: I hated CoT, too, but then I read KoD.

[Luckers]

The problem with tPoD and CoT is that both were originally meant to be part of a larger book--originally RJ intended tPoD and WH to be one book, and CoT and KoD to be one book. In that light both tPoD and CoT are good--for the first half of a full book.

 

As a book by themselves they are unsatisfying, and lack a real climax. That being said some of the best stuff in the series occur in them.

[Rael]

The problem with tPoD and CoT is that both were originally meant to be part of a larger book--originally RJ intended tPoD and WH to be one book, and CoT and KoD to be one book. In that light both tPoD and CoT are good--for the first half of a full book.

 

As a book by themselves they are unsatisfying, and lack a real climax. That being said some of the best stuff in the series occur in them.

 

Really? I didn't know that Jordan intended PoD and WH to be one book. Together I find them to be just as good as the earlier books. They have always read like one book to me though. I must say, I am re-reading WH (third or fourth time), which I am enjoying immensely since I forgot some of the details. However, I am finding Elayne to be a bit of a chore now that Nynaeve is with Rand. I know it's necessary for the plot but I am not feeling the imminent danger of the Borderland army or Naen, Elenia, Nasin and Armyrilla (sp?)sending their armies towards Caemlyn. It just really pales compared to Mat and Rand.

 

P.S. Thank the Light for Encyclopaedia-wot because keeping up with the houses of Andor is very difficult, to say the least.

[Graendals favourite]

On a humourous note, for those who missed seeing Mat in PoD, I could add this quote which illustrates how being as he is to a sickbed (though Tylin makes full use of this), he is not very amenable to adventure. I imagine he may be grumpy as well. Anyway, the quote is from the Dragon Reborn, Visitations, when he is recuperating from being healed from the Shadar Logoth dagger:

The Amyrlin's eyebrow rose at the sight of him standing there with the blanket hanging from his shoulders and his purse and dice cups in his hands. "I don't think you will need those for a while yet, my son," she said dryly. "Put them up and get back to bed before you fall on your face."