Moriane's Role in the New Books

[fikkie77]

Maybe her bond to Lan was only severed because her connection with saidar is lost (briefly) in the ter'angreal???

Rand did not lose his connection with saidin when he went through the other doorway in Tear.

That one didn't go up in flames when he got through. The only thing that some people want to make clear, is that there can be other ways for the warder bond to be severed than death or stilling.

 

For me, I don't know. I liked Moiraine and do hope she will return alive and powerful. I see ways for that to be possible, though I understand that the chances are tiny. And maybe it's just wishful thinking.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Maybe her bond to Lan was only severed because her connection with saidar is lost (briefly) in the ter'angreal???

Rand did not lose his connection with saidin when he went through the other doorway in Tear.

That one didn't go up in flames when he got through. The only thing that some people want to make clear, is that there can be other ways for the warder bond to be severed than death or stilling.

 

For me, I don't know. I liked Moiraine and do hope she will return alive and powerful. I see ways for that to be possible, though I understand that the chances are tiny. And maybe it's just wishful thinking.

 

Where is your evidence for the Warder bond ever being broken except by death, being released consciously by the bond-holder, or passed to another?

[Mr Ares]

The only thing that some people want to make clear, is that there can be other ways for the warder bond to be severed than death or stilling.

And the thing others want to make clear is that those things do not come from the books, they are not so much as hinted at. Death and stilling are the only ones the books give.

[fikkie77]

If something hasn't happened in the books yet, it doens't mean it won't or can't happen.

We haven't seen Sauron in the books, but that doesn't mean that he won't appear (except that this isn't LOTR)!

 

I'm not giving any evidence, as there is none. But it is proven that the thought of another way to sever the warderbond is conceivable. But I'm not saying that that is what happened. I don't know... Thom and Mat might go the Ghenji and get the lifeless body of Moiraine from the Finns.

[Cherise]

If something hasn't happened in the books yet, it doens't mean it won't or can't happen.

We haven't seen Sauron in the books, but that doesn't mean that he won't appear (except that this isn't LOTR)!

 

I'm not giving any evidence, as there is none. But it is proven that the thought of another way to sever the warderbond is conceivable. But I'm not saying that that is what happened. I don't know... Thom and Mat might go the Ghenji and get the lifeless body of Moiraine from the Finns.

 

Even if Moiraine is stilled when Thom and Mat find her, she could still be healed by an ashaman, and be full strength...

 

I don't believe channeling ability is essential for Moiraine to be significant, though.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

If something hasn't happened in the books yet, it doens't mean it won't or can't happen.

We haven't seen Sauron in the books, but that doesn't mean that he won't appear (except that this isn't LOTR)!

 

I'm not giving any evidence, as there is none. But it is proven that the thought of another way to sever the warderbond is conceivable. But I'm not saying that that is what happened. I don't know... Thom and Mat might go the Ghenji and get the lifeless body of Moiraine from the Finns.

 

Where is that thought concieved? It says in black and white that there are only 2 ways for the warder bond to break...

[YoungKing]

Ares, the more you can refute legitimate arguments against your own, the better and more valid your argument is. Simply saying "no" and pulling bits of what people say out of context does not legitimize your argument, it makes it weaker because you are not able to solidly refute the claims against.

 

You use shoddy evidence to try and legitimize your claims, but you can't really answer anything at its base.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if you believe everything Ishamael has said. :D

[mb]

It says in black and white that there are only 2 ways for the warder bond to break...

I do not recall the books telling that severing & death are the only ways.

 

Also, character beliefs were contradicted before.  Severing not able to be Healed was one such belief.

 

[Mr Ares]

Ares, the more you can refute legitimate arguments against your own, the better and more valid your argument is.

And the more you can actually make a point rather than just spouting irrelevant tosh, the greater the chance you'll actually say something worth reading.

[GoldenK]

ugh, LTT isnt from the taint on Saidin, re-read the prologue of book one, does LTT mention Voices? NO

 

More importantly, and i quote "A Pity for you," He mused, "That one of your sisters isnt here. I was never very skilled at healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only have given you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first." - Ishamael..

 

Implying that the madness is heal-able.. even more 'natural' than some of the madness' that Graendal had to heal, without the power. Nynaeve has delved Rand, found him completely sound, besides the two wounds in his side... LTT is a part of rand... yet separate.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

ugh, LTT isnt from the taint on Saidin, re-read the prologue of book one, does LTT mention Voices? NO

 

More importantly, and i quote "A Pity for you," He mused, "That one of your sisters isnt here. I was never very skilled at healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only have given you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first." - Ishamael..

 

Implying that the madness is heal-able.. even more 'natural' than some of the madness' that Graendal had to heal, without the power. Nynaeve has delved Rand, found him completely sound, besides the two wounds in his side... LTT is a part of rand... yet separate.

 

Rand is LTT reborn. Ishamael thought that the Aes Sedai could heal him a little, but we know that at least at the current time that is not true. Ishamael cured his madness with the True Power. LTT wasn't created by the Taint, but the reason Rand hears him in his head is Taint-caused.

[a pale tanned lover]

And the more you can actually make a point rather than just spouting irrelevant tosh, the greater the chance you'll actually say something worth reading.

That made me laugh, kettle, pot and black only on repeat.

Rand is LTT reborn. Ishamael thought that the Aes Sedai could heal him a little, but we know that at least at the current time that is not true. Ishamael cured his madness with the True Power. LTT wasn't created by the Taint, but the reason Rand hears him in his head is Taint-caused.

Clarify these facts please, with evidence not just your opinion...again

 

 

 

 

[GoldenK]

ugh, LTT isnt from the taint on Saidin, re-read the prologue of book one, does LTT mention Voices? NO

 

More importantly, and i quote "A Pity for you," He mused, "That one of your sisters isnt here. I was never very skilled at healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only have given you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first." - Ishamael..

 

Implying that the madness is heal-able.. even more 'natural' than some of the madness' that Graendal had to heal, without the power. Nynaeve has delved Rand, found him completely sound, besides the two wounds in his side... LTT is a part of rand... yet separate.

 

Rand is LTT reborn. Ishamael thought that the Aes Sedai could heal him a little, but we know that at least at the current time that is not true. Ishamael cured his madness with the True Power. LTT wasn't created by the Taint, but the reason Rand hears him in his head is Taint-caused.

In his time, they probably could... he's not mad, he's just crazy because he thinks he's going insane ;)

[Padraic_Seebrr]

To Goldenk, isn't mad/crazy/insane all the same thing? Or maybe it was a joke (if thats the case then haha)

 

To pale tanned, heres my evidence from a post I made earlier which you probably read and just disregarded because it came from me...

The taint causes people to go mad. Fact. Hearing a dead mans voice in your head is a form of madness, even if it is a really a past soul talking to you. Fact. Ishmael clearly states "I follow a different power now", and we know that he was and is addicted to the True Power, he also states "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" so he uses the Dark One's power to heal LTT of his madness. Fact. I agree that there are other factors in Rand's life that could help make his mind unstable enough to create madness, but as Luckers said earlier the taint simply magnifies already unstable parts of the mind. Fact. There you go, theres your facts.

[GoldenK]

To Goldenk, isn't mad/crazy/insane all the same thing? Or maybe it was a joke (if thats the case then haha)

 

To pale tanned, heres my evidence from a post I made earlier which you probably read and just disregarded because it came from me...

The taint causes people to go mad. Fact. Hearing a dead mans voice in your head is a form of madness, even if it is a really a past soul talking to you. Fact. Ishmael clearly states "I follow a different power now", and we know that he was and is addicted to the True Power, he also states "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" so he uses the Dark One's power to heal LTT of his madness. Fact. I agree that there are other factors in Rand's life that could help make his mind unstable enough to create madness, but as Luckers said earlier the taint simply magnifies already unstable parts of the mind. Fact. There you go, theres your facts.

 

Its kindof a joke, kind of not

 

He's not 'Mad' in the sense of blowing up the world

 

He's going crazy because he thinks that lews therin is a sign of the Madness, its kind of a vicious circle he's stuck in. Its kinda overwhelming him, which is the problem.

[Cherise]

To Goldenk, isn't mad/crazy/insane all the same thing? Or maybe it was a joke (if thats the case then haha)

 

To pale tanned, heres my evidence from a post I made earlier which you probably read and just disregarded because it came from me...

The taint causes people to go mad. Fact. Hearing a dead mans voice in your head is a form of madness, even if it is a really a past soul talking to you. Fact. Ishmael clearly states "I follow a different power now", and we know that he was and is addicted to the True Power, he also states "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" so he uses the Dark One's power to heal LTT of his madness. Fact. I agree that there are other factors in Rand's life that could help make his mind unstable enough to create madness, but as Luckers said earlier the taint simply magnifies already unstable parts of the mind. Fact. There you go, theres your facts.

 

Its kindof a joke, kind of not

 

He's not 'Mad' in the sense of blowing up the world

 

He's going crazy because he thinks that lews therin is a sign of the Madness, its kind of a vicious circle he's stuck in. Its kinda overwhelming him, which is the problem.

 

Yes.  This is what I see happening, too.

[Mr Ares]

ugh, LTT isnt from the taint on Saidin, re-read the prologue of book one, does LTT mention Voices? NO

That makes no sense. Morr reverts to a childlike state, and a guy at the BT thinks he's covered in spiders. Both went mad, both due to the taint, both in different ways. The taint does not cause any particular form of madness. So LTT having a different form to Rand is meaningless. The taint did cause LTT to manifest in Rand.

 

And the more you can actually make a point rather than just spouting irrelevant tosh, the greater the chance you'll actually say something worth reading.

That made me laugh, kettle, pot and black only on repeat.

If you have nothing to say, don't keep talking.

[GoldenK]

ugh, LTT isnt from the taint on Saidin, re-read the prologue of book one, does LTT mention Voices? NO

That makes no sense. Morr reverts to a childlike state, and a guy at the BT thinks he's covered in spiders. Both went mad, both due to the taint, both in different ways. The taint does not cause any particular form of madness. So LTT having a different form to Rand is meaningless. The taint did cause LTT to manifest in Rand.

 

And the more you can actually make a point rather than just spouting irrelevant tosh, the greater the chance you'll actually say something worth reading.

That made me laugh, kettle, pot and black only on repeat.

If you have nothing to say, don't keep talking.

 

It is quite relevent, LTT in rands head is not taint induced, otherwise he couldnt seize Saidin... it would be rand Seizing Saidin... while being crazy...

 

 

No, LTT is a voice in Rands head but not because he's Mad... especially because he teaches rand weaves, how to break through a shield, etc, these are things no Aes Sedai or anyone else in this time could teach rand.. only someone with Knowledge of what was commonplace in the Age of Legends could.

[a pale tanned lover]

To pale tanned, heres my evidence from a post I made earlier which you probably read and just disregarded because it came from me...

The taint causes people to go mad. Fact. Hearing a dead mans voice in your head is a form of madness, even if it is a really a past soul talking to you. Fact. Ishmael clearly states "I follow a different power now", and we know that he was and is addicted to the True Power, he also states "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know" so he uses the Dark One's power to heal LTT of his madness. Fact. I agree that there are other factors in Rand's life that could help make his mind unstable enough to create madness, but as Luckers said earlier the taint simply magnifies already unstable parts of the mind. Fact. There you go, theres your facts.

 

I read your previous post and the same as this, all your Facts are based on assumption, apart from the taint induces madness. I don't disagree with the taint inducing madness just everything else you say as Fact. Mr Ares I said alot on this debate to which you declined to reply,so take your own advice or are you just still using that broken record.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

How is Ishmael using the True Power an assumption? He clearly says "I follow a different power now, but I fear Shai'tan's healing is not the healing your used to". He isn't using a secret Darkfriend only One Power weave on LTT, he's using Shai'tan's power to heal him, or The True Power.

 

Hearing a dead man's voice whether its a real person or not is insane. If you heard about someone hearing their past life's voice in their head, would you say they were sane or insane?

[a pale tanned lover]

Insert Quote

How is Ishmael using the True Power an assumption? He clearly says "I follow a different power now, but I fear Shai'tan's healing is not the healing your used to". He isn't using a secret Darkfriend only One Power weave on LTT, he's using Shai'tan's power to heal him, or The True Power.

Sorry i wasn't really talking about this since it has no relevance to what we were discussing, LTT was/is mad. i'm not arguing that.

Hearing a dead man's voice whether its a real person or not is insane. If you heard about someone hearing their past life's voice in their head, would you say they were sane or insane?

I would say no more so then hearing dice or wolves, i have brought these points up before. Mat and Perrin aren't affected by the taint but hear things. Your whole theory is the taint has caused LTT in Rand but you base all that on an assumption.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Perrin talking to wolves is an old thing, forgotten so long that it seems like madness to the people of modern Randland, but it is not. Mat's dice I really do have no idea wtf is going on there though hehe.

[Nautilus]

I do believe your all getting a little off topic... 

[Mr Ares]

It is quite relevent, LTT in rands head is not taint induced, otherwise he couldnt seize Saidin.

Your complete absence of evidence does make for a compelling case.

 

Mr Ares I said a lot on this debate to which you declined to reply

Because it wasn't worth responding to.

 

I would say no more so then hearing dice or wolves, i have brought these points up before. Mat and Perrin aren't affected by the taint but hear things.

So, different people in completely different situations, with little resemblence are evidence in your favour now? Look at Hurin, clear cut proof of Rand's insanity. Neither Mat nor Perrin is mad. Rand is.

 

I do believe your all getting a little off topic...

I do believe we don't give a damn.

[GoldenK]

Because if Rand was insane, LTT wouldnt be seizing Saidin, rand would, whilst being crazy, in order to seize Saidin, you have to be conscious, by definition, 'crazy voices in your head' arent conscious. Also, many things LTT explains to rand that could only be known from the Age of Legends (what the forsaken looked like, names of certain weaves, how to do certain weaves, how to break a shield (note, he was talking about hard points and soft points before there was an option for Rands head to fill it, so that is something that is clearly completely different from anything he could imagine), and so on.