Moriane's Role in the New Books

[DukeBob]

Perhaps there are multiple aspects at play.

 

It may be that all elements were required to create this extremely rare situation. Those elements being, Dragon Reborn, ta'veren, taint. Any one of those things missing could have resulted in a completed different reaction or no reaction at all. In addition, the pattern is likely forcing Rand down this route as it doesn't have time to let him learn everything that he needs to know to defeat the DO. LTT has been dragged into the equation to help bring Rand along.

[Mr Ares]

I think that the use of simple logic points us to the conclusion that the Taint most likely did not cause LTT to be awakened inside Rand's head.

 

My argument is as follows:

 

Semi states that she is aware of other cases in which channelers hear voices in their heads.

 

These cases were from the Age Of Lengends, thus pre-taint.

 

Thus we know the condition can occur without the Taint being present.

 

Therefore, while the Taint can and often does cause insanety there is no evidence that LTT's manifestation is caused by the Taint and instead have proof that the condition has occured without the inducement of the Taint. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the Taint did not cause LTT to manifest in Rand's mind but that it was caused by whatever caused the cases which Semi is aware of and which could not have been causedby the Taint.

Well, by that same logic, any case of insanity we see in a male channel could be caused by other factors. Maybe the taint doesn't cause insanity at all, it's just a coincidence. The other cases we hear of, LTT, Jaric Mondorran, Fedwin Morr, the guy at the BT with the spiders, any of those conditions could have been caused by things other than the taint, therefore they were not caused by the taint but by whatever could cause it in non-taint related cases.

 

My argument is as follows:

The taint causes people to go mad.

Rand has been exposed to the taint.

Rand is mad.

The taint caused Rand to go mad.

[a pale tanned lover]

The taint causes people to go mad

 

No it causes male channelers to go mad

 

Rand has been exposed to the taint.

 

Yes

 

Rand is mad.

 

No LTT is mad

 

The taint caused Rand to go mad.

 

Perrin talks to wolves, isn't a male channeler and hasn't been affected by the taint, is he also mad because we also know this is a rare condition as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fikkie77]

I think that the use of simple logic points us to the conclusion that the Taint most likely did not cause LTT to be awakened inside Rand's head.

 

My argument is as follows:

 

Semi states that she is aware of other cases in which channelers hear voices in their heads.

 

These cases were from the Age Of Lengends, thus pre-taint.

 

Thus we know the condition can occur without the Taint being present.

 

Therefore, while the Taint can and often does cause insanety there is no evidence that LTT's manifestation is caused by the Taint and instead have proof that the condition has occured without the inducement of the Taint. Thus, the logical conclusion is that the Taint did not cause LTT to manifest in Rand's mind but that it was caused by whatever caused the cases which Semi is aware of and which could not have been causedby the Taint.

This made me wonder what kind of madness Ishamael has been suffering of (beside megalomania). Was he mad already in the AOL? Did he hear voices? Were those voices previous incarnations?

 

I believe we know nothing about his madness, except the fact that he was mad. But your theory made me think of Ishy.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

The taint causes people to go mad

 

No it causes male channelers to go mad

 

Rand has been exposed to the taint.

 

Yes

 

Rand is mad.

 

No LTT is mad

 

The taint caused Rand to go mad.

 

Perrin talks to wolves, isn't a male channeler and hasn't been affected by the taint, is he also mad because we also know this is a rare condition as well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LTT is mad, but so is Rand BECAUSE HE HEARS A DEAD MAN'S VOICE IN HIS HEAD.

 

Perrin is not mad, he just has the rare ability to be able to communicate with wolves.

 

And the male channelers thing is because they are the only ones EXPOSED to the taint...

[a pale tanned lover]

LTT is mad, but so is Rand BECAUSE HE HEARS A DEAD MAN'S VOICE IN HIS HEAD.

 

Perrin is not mad, he just has the rare ability to be able to communicate with wolves.

 

So what you are saying is you have proof that Rand hearing LTT is not a rarer ability then Perrin? please explain....you can quote what semi said if you wish but I can refute that theory so any other information you have to prove different I would like to hear.

 

Patient " I speak to animals in my head"

Doctor " Its rare but at long as its not a dead person who is your soul reborn, fighting an endless battle against the dark one, then chat too any animal you want because then that means your sane"

 

Utter rubbish Padraic, and no need for caps on when I can read just fine, people who raise their voice only lower the tone.

 

And the male channelers thing is because they are the only ones EXPOSED to the taint...

 

And your telling me why? did you read the posts at all, as in who sent them, who replied etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

The taint causes people to go mad

No it causes male channelers to go mad

Male channelers are people. Anyone exposed to the taint will eventually go mad.

 

Rand is mad.

No LTT is mad

So is Rand.

 

Perrin talks to wolves, isn't a male channeler and hasn't been affected by the taint, is he also mad because we also know this is a rare condition as well?

A rare condition, not a rare form of madness. Perrin isn't mad.

 

you can quote what semi said if you wish but I can refute that theory.

Go on then.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

I'm not sure I would count hearing LTT in his head as an "ability", but then again he does gain some knowledge with it so perhaps. Also I do want to apologize if it seemed i was "raising my voice" lol, I meant to emphasize, I probably should have used bold instead.

[a pale tanned lover]

A rare condition, not a rare form of madness. Perrin isn't mad.

 

I agree, Perrin isn't mad, neither is Rand, he just has a rare condition, unless you have some proof that LTT is caused by a rare madness and not a rare condition

[meauxwalk]

Just some thoughts on Rand hearing LTT:

 

I believe that if the LTT voice in Rand's head really is LTT (whether it be brought about by their souls being merged somehow, or a "thinning" due to the taint) then Rand is not "mad." However, if it is not really LTT's voice (no matter how it got in Rand's head), then I would consider Rand "mad." 

 

The differentiation in my mind is the reality of LTT's voice.  A person with schizophrenia may hear voices, but no one is actually talking to them.  But if there are actually people speaking and a person is hearing their voices (be it by phone, radio, screaming at the top of their lungs) then it would not be considered schizophrenia. 

 

On Moriane's Role in the new books:

 

From what I have read in the books, Moraine is most definately alive in Finnland.  (I think there is little dispute on that matter.)  I think it is likely that she was stilled and will be healed: either by the Finn's as one of her requests, or by a fellow channeler after being rescued. She is elemental to Rand's success, and I wouldn't be surprised if she came out of the tower with some information on the last battle or how to re-seal the bore.

 

On a side note:

 

I suppose that it is possible Moraine might not have been stilled, but that the violent collapse of the doorway somehow snapped the warder bond.  I don't think that it is a forgone conclusion that because Lanfear was stilled, Moriane was also stilled. Most likely, yes. However, I can see how some question whether she was actually stilled or not.

 

When Mat, Rand and Moraine were all in Finnland in the Stone, they did not see eachother, nor did they hear each other's conversations with the 'Finns. What happened to one did not happen to the others.  They had their questions answered individually.  Therefore, it is likely that though Lanfear and Moraine went through the doorway together, their experiences one in Finnland were also different.

[Nautilus]

The woman looked at the battered tea things as if she had all the time in the world.

"Now you know,"

She said at last, calm as ever,

"that I know your future, and your present. The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

 

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

 

 

"Some men who can channel begin to hear voices."

She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flatened sphere of silver and gold.

"It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do."

The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet.

 

"Have you heard any?"

 

Startlingly, Dashiva gave a raucous laugh, shoulders shaking. Narishma wet his lips; he might not have been afraid of the woman before, but now he watched her closely as a scorpion.

----------------

 

I believe that yes the males do suffer from the voices because of the taint on the source. Not to sure if they all hear LTT or not, or just plain voices. There are other examples in the books, but its too late for me to fish them out right now. As far as Rand "being mad" by the end of KoD I dont believe it.  Mental breakdown maybe but not mad, not LTT mad anyway.

[torwolf]

Brandon gave this reply in Barnes & Nobles forums when asked about Moiraine

 

I have a very specific question about The Wheel of Time series.  One of my favorite characters has been MIA for way too long.  I'm assuming Moiraine Damodred returns to the playing field I'm just wanting to know if it will be in the upcoming book or further on?

 

This is exactly the sort of thing I've been asked by the Jordan estate to stay quiet about, I'm afraid.  (Sorry.)  Some things the fans are expecting will happen in this book.  But some things had to be saved for the next two volumes.  And of Mr. Jordan's instructions were quite surprising, when seen in the light of what everyone expects will happen.

 

I am wondering about the bold part since Brandon has said before that he couldn't understand why everyone believes that Moiraine is alive (or something like that, I can't find the exact quote).

 

Is Brandon hinting that Moiraine might not come back or is this diversionary tactic to confuse us??

[Luckers]

I am wondering about the bold part since Brandon has said before that he couldn't understand why everyone believes that Moiraine is alive (or something like that, I can't find the exact quote).

 

As far as I am aware Brandon has never said that, and I do keep an eye on such things. The simple fact is we know Moiraine is alive. Brandon would not be surprised that we are all aware of that given KoD (and much else besides).

 

Is Brandon hinting that Moiraine might not come back or is this diversionary tactic to confuse us??

 

Neither. If anything Brandon in that quote seems to be suggesting that Moiraine may not return until the second book. I could understand that if Mat's efforts to save her are in the first book, but I'd rather hope we get her back quick smart. She awesome.

[Mr Ares]

neither is Rand

Yes he is. Semi states it. We can back up most of what she said and know it to be true.

[Phariah]

ok i started a thread about this before Rand :insane or something else

basically Rand is a failed or unique possession ,LLT is a past life that gains control sometimes .

EotW it was first brought up by Thom talking about the old blood w/ the 2rivers peeps

than a major fact in LoC  Fain states on page  571 "there was a differance lately, a differance that had come suddenly ,, almost as if someone else had suddenly taken partial possession of Al'Thor, and in doing so pushed away Fain's own possession"

Semi's statement says its a form of insanity chalk that up to AoL an modern titles getting in the way , what they called Rand's insanity was a actually form of possession and re-integration was a form of exorcism ( either ridding the person of past life or condensing the 2 lives into 1 combined )

and again Semi states this was in AoL so where was the taint to cause this madness? hmm...

he is not insane just stressed ( serious a dude renting space in his head an he inst paying , Rand lost his monthly day planner on when which girlfriend gets him on which day an he doesnt wanna get with the wrong one on the wrong day and get in trouble... thats major stress right there not including the whole i gotta sacrifice myself to save the world thing )

[torwolf]

I am wondering about the bold part since Brandon has said before that he couldn't understand why everyone believes that Moiraine is alive (or something like that, I can't find the exact quote).

 

As far as I am aware Brandon has never said that, and I do keep an eye on such things. The simple fact is we know Moiraine is alive. Brandon would not be surprised that we are all aware of that given KoD (and much else besides).

 

Is Brandon hinting that Moiraine might not come back or is this diversionary tactic to confuse us??

 

Neither. If anything Brandon in that quote seems to be suggesting that Moiraine may not return until the second book. I could understand that if Mat's efforts to save her are in the first book, but I'd rather hope we get her back quick smart. She awesome.

 

Found the quote I was thinking about. It was in Brandon's 'Big Wheel of Time Interview Retrospective' post on his blog.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/739/Big-Wheel-of-Time-Interview-Retrospective

 

Q: I know you probably can't go too deeply into it, but are there any questions about the story you had as a fan that you will make sure get answered in this final novel?

A: I am still deeply interested in ascertaining the solution to the quandary regarding the character of Asmodean, most specifically the mystery surrounding the circumstances of his demise. ;)

 

I also mentioned Moiraine's fate last year as being a big question I had. She's always been a favorite of mine, and each time I read through the series, I'm left wondering about her. (Well, not anymore, since I've read the notes. But you know what I mean.)

 

I've been surprised to discover that a lot of readers take her survival for granted, but I've never done so. The letter gives some good clues that she might still be around, but it could also be some kind of trap by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. The answers and gifts they give are truthful, yet there's often a twisted logic to them as well, it seems.

 

I can't say more here, I'm afraid, since I now know too much.

[a pale tanned lover]

Yes he is. Semi states it. We can back up most of what she said and know it to be true.

 

Go on then

[Mr Ares]

Yes he is. Semi states it. We can back up most of what she said and know it to be true.

Go on then

Well, you've not done much of a job of backing up the statement I asked you to, but: She references Graendal as an expert on the mind, and better able to explain it than herself, which is true. She references Lanfear saying he knew things only LTT could, which is again true as he did say things Rand was unlikely to know to "Mierin". She says he is hearing Lews Therin's voice, which he is.

[a pale tanned lover]

She references Graendal as an expert on the mind, and better able to explain it than herself, which is true. She references Lanfear saying he knew things only LTT could, which is again true as he did say things Rand was unlikely to know to "Mierin". She says he is hearing Lews Therin's voice, which he is.

 

So thats your whole theory why you think Rand is mad??? Ok I will breakdown what you have stated and refute it like I said I would if you were too use that as the reason why he's mad.

 

She says he is hearing Lews Therin's voice, which he is.

Yes he is, hearing LTT voice in his head is not the debate.

 

Rand was unlikely to know to "Mierin"

He was unlikely to know who Semi was either and he did call that name first, giving her time too think.

 

Lanfear saying he knew things only LTT could

So the forsaken know about a connection between him and LTT, information in his head that only LTT could know,and Lanfear had being going on a lot that he was LTT too them. So they have been fore-warned.

 

She references Graendal as an expert on the mind

What better person to tell someone they are mad, shes the most qualified to know that by making Rand and everyone else around him think that he is mad, he is a lot weaker. She could appreciate the most that if Rand realised that he wasn't mad and LTT was real then he would be more dangerous too their existence then he was before.

 

I would say thats a great reason why the forsaken would lie to Rand and say he was mad. Its serves their purposes.

 

And most importantly bear in mind that Semi scared her guards in AOL so much, to actually free her themselves, so she uses fear and mind games to her advantage, shocking that she is doing the same, even more shocking that you use what she said as proof that Rand is mad. Maybe if you had a more reliable witness with more reason too be honest I would be more inclined to believe LTT was a madness, as it is, anything Semi said cannot be used as evidence, unless you want to deny who she is?

 

 

 

 

[mb]

The complexity of the symptoms may need to be considered.

Memories & abilities might be considered much more complex than perception things (hearing voices, feeling things on skin).

So far we do not know if the Taint can cause other symptoms that are as complex as memories & abilities; nor if there are any in-between degrees of complexity in Taint caused symptoms.

 

Another thing to consider: Lews Therin gaining control over Rand.

If Lews Therin was Taint caused, then there would be the possibility of other Taint caused entities gaining control.

 

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head was induced by the Taint. We can safely assume that if the Taint had never happened, Rand wouldn't be hearing LTT in his head. Seeing as Rand is indeed insane due to the taint, he does have LTT's voice in his head. Other Asha'man do NOT have past life voices in their heads, because this form of madness is extremely rare. He is taveren, these things happen to them. He increases chances of near-impossible things to happen.

 

As to the Semi lying thing. Sometimes the truth is even scarier than any lie could be. Then again, the best lie is one closest to the truth. Would you believe "a giant ape is attacking the empire state building", or "an ape has escaped from the local zoo"? (I know, not a great analogy but I tried >.>.) Graendal is an expert on the mind, and she in the Age of Legends devoted her life to healing issues of the mind. This form of "madness" was much worse than any other forms of madness because the voice is real.

[a pale tanned lover]

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head was induced by the Taint. We can safely assume that if the Taint had never happened, Rand wouldn't be hearing LTT in his head. Seeing as Rand is indeed insane due to the taint, he does have LTT's voice in his head. Other Asha'man do NOT have past life voices in their heads, because this form of madness is extremely rare. He is taveren, these things happen to them. He increases chances of near-impossible things to happen.

 

Exactly where do you get your proof from? any evidence to back this up or is that all just your opinion? please back something of this up with facts Padric otherwise its just silly.

 

As to the Semi lying thing. Sometimes the truth is even scarier than any lie could be. Then again, the best lie is one closest to the truth. Would you believe "a giant ape is attacking the empire state building", or "an ape has escaped from the local zoo"? (I know, not a great analogy but I tried >.>.) Graendal is an expert on the mind, and she in the Age of Legends devoted her life to healing issues of the mind. This form of "madness" was much worse than any other forms of madness because the voice is real.

Again i ask for facts, i made the statement as a reason why semi would say this, i could of said....Semi said he totally sane, nothing wrong with him, Graendal was going to say something but she thought no, he's right and the light will win.

Why do you keep writing things that are totally stupid, last time i am going to reply to a post from you because I've stated my reasons why, and your saying the same reason that i've given a reason why it might not be true. Thats established already

 

[Mr Ares]

I would say thats a great reason why the forsaken would lie to Rand and say he was mad. It serves their purposes.

Refute when you're ready. Just bear in mind that that is also a great reason why she would tell the truth - that could also serve her purposes.

 

And most importantly bear in mind that Semi scared her guards in AOL so much, to actually free her themselves, so she uses fear and mind games to her advantage, shocking that she is doing the same, even more shocking that you use what she said as proof that Rand is mad. Maybe if you had a more reliable witness with more reason too be honest I would be more inclined to believe LTT was a madness, as it is, anything Semi said cannot be used as evidence, unless you want to deny who she is?

You said it yourself - she uses fear and mind games. But not, so far as we have seen, dishonesty when she doesn't need it. She was, in fact, very honest about who she was. If the truth serves as well or better than a lie, why lie? You have not provided a reason to lie that is not also a reason to tell the truth. And everything else she said was true.

[Padraic_Seebrr]

Lews Therin's voice in Rand's head was induced by the Taint. We can safely assume that if the Taint had never happened, Rand wouldn't be hearing LTT in his head. Seeing as Rand is indeed insane due to the taint, he does have LTT's voice in his head. Other Asha'man do NOT have past life voices in their heads, because this form of madness is extremely rare. He is taveren, these things happen to them. He increases chances of near-impossible things to happen.

 

Exactly where do you get your proof from? any evidence to back this up or is that all just your opinion? please back something of this up with facts Padric otherwise its just silly.

 

As to the Semi lying thing. Sometimes the truth is even scarier than any lie could be. Then again, the best lie is one closest to the truth. Would you believe "a giant ape is attacking the empire state building", or "an ape has escaped from the local zoo"? (I know, not a great analogy but I tried >.>.) Graendal is an expert on the mind, and she in the Age of Legends devoted her life to healing issues of the mind. This form of "madness" was much worse than any other forms of madness because the voice is real.

Again i ask for facts, i made the statement as a reason why semi would say this, i could of said....Semi said he totally sane, nothing wrong with him, Graendal was going to say something but she thought no, he's right and the light will win.

Why do you keep writing things that are totally stupid, last time i am going to reply to a post from you because I've stated my reasons why, and your saying the same reason that i've given a reason why it might not be true. Thats established already

 

 

Pale, you ask for facts. The facts are that the Taint causes people to go mad, and LTT talking to Rand is his mind is a form of madness. Do you mean to tell me that he just went mad without the Taint, and the Taint is just a bonus? Theres your facts for you.

 

You can nerdrage at me all you want, but believe it or not I have read all your posts and you aren't making any sense.

[Luckers]

I am wondering about the bold part since Brandon has said before that he couldn't understand why everyone believes that Moiraine is alive (or something like that, I can't find the exact quote).

 

As far as I am aware Brandon has never said that, and I do keep an eye on such things. The simple fact is we know Moiraine is alive. Brandon would not be surprised that we are all aware of that given KoD (and much else besides).

 

Is Brandon hinting that Moiraine might not come back or is this diversionary tactic to confuse us??

 

Neither. If anything Brandon in that quote seems to be suggesting that Moiraine may not return until the second book. I could understand that if Mat's efforts to save her are in the first book, but I'd rather hope we get her back quick smart. She awesome.

 

Found the quote I was thinking about. It was in Brandon's 'Big Wheel of Time Interview Retrospective' post on his blog.

 

http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/739/Big-Wheel-of-Time-Interview-Retrospective

 

Q: I know you probably can't go too deeply into it, but are there any questions about the story you had as a fan that you will make sure get answered in this final novel?

A: I am still deeply interested in ascertaining the solution to the quandary regarding the character of Asmodean, most specifically the mystery surrounding the circumstances of his demise. ;)

 

I also mentioned Moiraine's fate last year as being a big question I had. She's always been a favorite of mine, and each time I read through the series, I'm left wondering about her. (Well, not anymore, since I've read the notes. But you know what I mean.)

 

I've been surprised to discover that a lot of readers take her survival for granted, but I've never done so. The letter gives some good clues that she might still be around, but it could also be some kind of trap by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. The answers and gifts they give are truthful, yet there's often a twisted logic to them as well, it seems.

 

I can't say more here, I'm afraid, since I now know too much.

 

In that case I hope he is trying to mislead people--because that comment is plain stupid. Even prior to the letter we knew Moiraine was still alive. There is a plethora of quotes showing this--and I don't use the word 'plethora' lightly.