Moriane's Role in the New Books

[Cillian]

Ok, this is a terribly long thread and I'm probably going to re-state something that's already been said, but...  We have clues that Moiraine passed Lan's bond on to Myrelle as she was going into the Eelfinn doorway.  The clues being that Myrelle knew it was going to come (she mentioned something in the scene where she was caught with him) and also we have the scene at Vandene and Adelas' retreat in the borderlands during The Great Hunt.

 

So, the circumstantial evidence about Moiraine being severed/stilled/burned out (because of the lack of warder bond) should be ruled out completely as evidence.  Simply because Lan immediately felt compelled to go to Myrelle.

 

If Moiraine wasn't severed (aka, if the bond was simply passed to whats-her-face) then Lan wouldn't have reacted the way he did. IIRC, he thinks Moiraine dead because of the way the bond snapped. So no, that evidence should not be completely ruled out.

 

[Red Hand Man]

An aside to the stilling effect on the bond, when Siuan was stilled her bond with Alric might not have been broken, he just felt compelled to help her because of her incredible loss (that being the ability to touch the source).  Note that Min is able to bond Rand (with the help of Elayne/Aviendha) and the Wise Ones have figured out how to effectively bond two non-channelers as "sisters".  So, I don't believe a bond is broken when stilling occurs and I'd like to believe that Min is solid evidence of that.

 

Thoughts?

 

Edit:

 

Ok, this is a terribly long thread and I'm probably going to re-state something that's already been said, but...  We have clues that Moiraine passed Lan's bond on to Myrelle as she was going into the Eelfinn doorway.  The clues being that Myrelle knew it was going to come (she mentioned something in the scene where she was caught with him) and also we have the scene at Vandene and Adelas' retreat in the borderlands during The Great Hunt.

 

So, the circumstantial evidence about Moiraine being severed/stilled/burned out (because of the lack of warder bond) should be ruled out completely as evidence.  Simply because Lan immediately felt compelled to go to Myrelle.

 

If Moiraine wasn't severed (aka, if the bond was simply passed to whats-her-face) then Lan wouldn't have reacted the way he did. IIRC, he thinks Moiraine dead because of the way the bond snapped. So no, that evidence should not be completely ruled out.

 

 

I believe his only reaction was feeling compelled to go to Myrelle as fast as he could and as it turned out there were a number of foes in his way, Shaido, etc...  He didn't flip out the way Alric did, or the way the other warders have been described to.  We have no other cases of transferred bonds, only descriptions of Myrelle re-bonding someone after the death of an Aes Sedai.

[Majsju]

An aside to the stilling effect on the bond, when Siuan was stilled her bond with Alric might not have been broken, he just felt compelled to help her because of her incredible loss (that being the ability to touch the source).  Note that Min is able to bond Rand (with the help of Elayne/Aviendha) and the Wise Ones have figured out how to effectively bond two non-channelers as "sisters".  So, I don't believe a bond is broken when stilling occurs and I'd like to believe that Min is solid evidence of that.

 

Thoughts?

 

Alric died before Siuan was stilled.

Min is evodence of absolutely nothing, as her situation is completely different than a normal bonding.

 

 

I believe his only reaction was feeling compelled to go to Myrelle as fast as he could and as it turned out there were a number of foes in his way, Shaido, etc...  He didn't flip out the way Alric did, or the way the other warders have been described to.  We have no other cases of transferred bonds, only descriptions of Myrelle re-bonding someone after the death of an Aes Sedai.

 

Again, Alric died before Siuan was stilled. Now, if you want to see examples of warders going absolutely bonkers because of their Aes Sedai being stilled, take a lok at the fate of Irgain Fatameds warders at Dumais Wells.

The reason why Lan does not completely flip out is because the bond is transfered. But when Egwene finds him with Myrelle, it is not exactly a posterboy for mental health we see. Had the bond been transfered without having been broken, there should be no such reaction.

[Hybrid]

From Chapter 22 of The Great Hunt:

 

For the hundredth time - or so it seemed to her - she considered the words to use.  "Before we left Tar Valon I made arrangements, should anything happen to me, for your bond to pass to another."  He stared at her, silent.  "When you feel my death, you will find yourself compelled to seek her out immediately.  I do not want you to be surprised by it."

Thanks for the quote.  My bold.

 

Moiraine tells Lan the bond will be passed in the event of her death.  She had not planned to pass the bond before then.  When Moiraine went through the doorway, the bond was immediately passed to Myrelle.  To Lan, this effect was very similar to one caused by Moiraine's death - in fact, that is his reaction to the event.  He believes Moiraine has been killed, and he feels compelled to seek out Myrelle immediately.  That is not the reaction to the bond merely being passed.  There are only two events in the books that cause such a reaction (that we know of right now): death and stilling.  Since we have reason to believe that she is still alive, Moiraine being stilled is the reasonable conclusion.

[Mr Ares]

We have clues that Moiraine passed Lan's bond on to Myrelle as she was going into the Eelfinn doorway.

No, we don't: "an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, tough on him." Aside from Lan experiencing the shock of Moiraine's death, which means his bond wasn't passed before her death, she also had neither the time nor the physical contact necessary to do it.

 

Mr Ares bluntly stated his POV

Considering I don't have another way of stating things, that's a tautology.

[Phariah]

 

Moiraine was able to set up a passing of the bond w/out Lan's knowledge so we know he does not have to be present, we have no idea the range of releasing the bond, so there is no proof she did not just end her connection which than moved the bond to Myrrela

Lan says" she is gone i cannot feel her presence ", hmm wow the bond was shifted so he was than adjusting to the new link to Myrella which he does and can point to her general direction, he would have gone bonkers at Moiraine's death because his new AS wasn't there to  control him , but he  calmly gets his mount ready to go to her instead, if Moiraine was killed or stilled he would have known from the bond feeling her dismay / pain, which he does not

 

than u have Rand telling Amys that Moiraine is dead and she says " u are a fool Rand Al'thor , in this and other things " the dreamwalkers know she is not dead

since Lanfear was stilled probably, do to her reduced power as Cyndane,and most likely healing her was the cause , so we have Moiraine most likely stilling Lanfear and being captured afterwards, or they were both stilled goin thru the doorway as it nuked

nothing says the finns can still someone as we have seen Rand and Moiraine channel in the snakes land with no ill effect

 

so she is not dead , and held prisoner, her bond passed willingly or from being stilled

most likely her knowing she would be captive for awhile released Lan to Myrella ( than to Ny as we know she planned )

[a pale tanned lover]

Do we know if time passes the same there?

[Red Hand Man]

An aside to the stilling effect on the bond, when Siuan was stilled her bond with Alric might not have been broken, he just felt compelled to help her because of her incredible loss (that being the ability to touch the source).  Note that Min is able to bond Rand (with the help of Elayne/Aviendha) and the Wise Ones have figured out how to effectively bond two non-channelers as "sisters".  So, I don't believe a bond is broken when stilling occurs and I'd like to believe that Min is solid evidence of that.

 

Thoughts?

 

Alric died before Siuan was stilled.

Min is evodence of absolutely nothing, as her situation is completely different than a normal bonding.

 

 

I believe his only reaction was feeling compelled to go to Myrelle as fast as he could and as it turned out there were a number of foes in his way, Shaido, etc...  He didn't flip out the way Alric did, or the way the other warders have been described to.  We have no other cases of transferred bonds, only descriptions of Myrelle re-bonding someone after the death of an Aes Sedai.

 

Again, Alric died before Siuan was stilled. Now, if you want to see examples of warders going absolutely bonkers because of their Aes Sedai being stilled, take a lok at the fate of Irgain Fatameds warders at Dumais Wells.

The reason why Lan does not completely flip out is because the bond is transfered. But when Egwene finds him with Myrelle, it is not exactly a posterboy for mental health we see. Had the bond been transfered without having been broken, there should be no such reaction.

 

 

Ah yes, you are correct about Alric and Siuan, thanks.  From what I recall, there was no mention of the bond between the warders and the stilled AS at Dumai's Wells being broken (this does not mean they weren't).

 

As to Min's situation, you are right that it doesn't gain any ground.  There are the Aiel first-sisters, but the only ones we are told of have at least one channeler (and perhaps not all of them go through the pseudo-bonding).  However, given that Min was not bonded BY the person she is bonded TO, it leads me to believe that two non-channelers can be bonded (which would include a stilled channeler).

 

Does anyone know of a place in the books where it is stated that bonding is broken with stilling? or burning out?  Perhaps with Setalle Anan...

 

P.S. - I love having to add all kinds of stipulations to make sure people know that this is just the way I interpret it and not that I am claiming any of this is fact :)

[mb]

Reason: Machin Shin (a Taint caused entity) does not control anybody.

Machin Shin is not LTT. The two are very different. You can't say because the one can't do it, something very different also can't.

Very different things rarely have same cause.

Things that have the same cause generally have some kind of similarity in their effects.

 

[OptimusPrime]

 

Moiraine was able to set up a passing of the bond w/out Lan's knowledge so we know he does not have to be present, we have no idea the range of releasing the bond, so there is no proof she did not just end her connection which than moved the bond to Myrrela

Lan says" she is gone i cannot feel her presence ", hmm wow the bond was shifted so he was than adjusting to the new link to Myrella which he does and can point to her general direction, he would have gone bonkers at Moiraine's death because his new AS wasn't there to  control him , but he  calmly gets his mount ready to go to her instead, if Moiraine was killed or stilled he would have known from the bond feeling her dismay / pain, which he does not

 

than u have Rand telling Amys that Moiraine is dead and she says " u are a fool Rand Al'thor , in this and other things " the dreamwalkers know she is not dead

since Lanfear was stilled probably, do to her reduced power as Cyndane,and most likely healing her was the cause , so we have Moiraine most likely stilling Lanfear and being captured afterwards, or they were both stilled goin thru the doorway as it nuked

nothing says the finns can still someone as we have seen Rand and Moiraine channel in the snakes land with no ill effect

 

so she is not dead , and held prisoner, her bond passed willingly or from being stilled

most likely her knowing she would be captive for awhile released Lan to Myrella ( than to Ny as we know she planned )

 

I am impressed with the explanation. One thing about it bothers me though, probably just because my memory on this subject is hazy.

 

What is it that causes Lan to go so cold, if not for the bond snapping?

[Majsju]

Ah yes, you are correct about Alric and Siuan, thanks.  From what I recall, there was no mention of the bond between the warders and the stilled AS at Dumai's Wells being broken (this does not mean they weren't).

 

While there is no direct mention of the bond, we know that it is cut just the same as if Irgain had died, because of the way her warders acted. One of them died instantly from the shock, the other died trying to take on a few thousand Aiel by himself, instead of trying to escape.

 

As to Min's situation, you are right that it doesn't gain any ground.  There are the Aiel first-sisters, but the only ones we are told of have at least one channeler (and perhaps not all of them go through the pseudo-bonding).  However, given that Min was not bonded BY the person she is bonded TO, it leads me to believe that two non-channelers can be bonded (which would include a stilled channeler).

 

Point is, Min is a passive player in the process, she has to be brought into the bond by Elayne and Avi. Also, it is not the traditional warder bond, it is an adapted version based on what Elayne has learned about the first-sister bond.

 

Does anyone know of a place in the books where it is stated that bonding is broken with stilling? or burning out?  Perhaps with Setalle Anan...

 

Irgain.

 

 

Moiraine was able to set up a passing of the bond w/out Lan's knowledge so we know he does not have to be present, we have no idea the range of releasing the bond, so there is no proof she did not just end her connection which than moved the bond to Myrrela

 

Passing the bond, like Moiraine did to Myrelle, and releasing a warder are two different things. For starters, the two concern different sides of the bond. Passing the bond is manipulating Moiraines side of the bond. Releasing a warder concerns his side of it.

 

Lan says" she is gone i cannot feel her presence ", hmm wow the bond was shifted so he was than adjusting to the new link to Myrella which he does and can point to her general direction, he would have gone bonkers at Moiraine's death because his new AS wasn't there to  control him , but he  calmly gets his mount ready to go to her instead, if Moiraine was killed or stilled he would have known from the bond feeling her dismay / pain, which he does not

 

With the passing of the bond came a bit of compulsion, which is what forced lan to immidiatly start heading straight to Myrelle. That does not mean his mental health is anywhere near the way it should be. We see the state he is in when Egwene finds him, and at that point, Myrelle has already worked with him for some time.

The purpose of releasing a bond is to save the warder from this, so Lans condition by itself is solid evidence that Moiraine did not release the bond.

 

than u have Rand telling Amys that Moiraine is dead and she says " u are a fool Rand Al'thor , in this and other things " the dreamwalkers know she is not dead

 

Or maybe Amys comment is aimed at Rands refusal to kill a woman, even if said woman happens to be a forsaken, which would work a bit better with Rand seeing accusation in her eyes, considering how this major flaw in Rands character caused Moiraines "death", and some serious damage to Egwene and Avi.

 

[Mr Ares]

Very different things rarely have same cause.

But not always. And the Ways and a person are very different to start with. We know the Taint can affect both, and it's not unreasonable that it will do so in different ways. We even know the effects on humans can be very different, given the people who have gone insane in the series.

 

 

[mb]

Very different things rarely have same cause.

But not always. And the Ways and a person are very different to start with. We know the Taint can affect both, and it's not unreasonable that it will do so in different ways. We even know the effects on humans can be very different, given the people who have gone insane in the series.

One saidin channeler felt spiders on his skin.  From Cadsuane, we know a number of saidin channelers heard voices.  Both of those symptoms relate to the person's perception. 

 

I am more inclined to think that the ability to do drawings & Lews Therin's gaining control are not insanity/madness because neither are mentioned by the 'experts' (Cadsuane/Semirhage/Graendal) in memories or in discussions.

 

Besides being the same soul, a merge seems the best explanation so far because it has the most examples (besides the discussed situation) that support it.

With the Taint, the books have several discussions and there being the fact of different symptoms; the books do not provide any more evidence, and so far only the voice is common in other saidin channelers.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Very different things rarely have same cause.

But not always. And the Ways and a person are very different to start with. We know the Taint can affect both, and it's not unreasonable that it will do so in different ways. We even know the effects on humans can be very different, given the people who have gone insane in the series.

One saidin channeler felt spiders on his skin.  From Cadsuane, we know a number of saidin channelers heard voices.  Both of those symptoms relate to the person's perception. 

 

I am more inclined to think that the ability to do drawings & Lews Therin's gaining control are not insanity/madness because neither are mentioned by the 'experts' (Cadsuane/Semirhage/Graendal) in memories or in discussions.

 

Besides being the same soul, a merge seems the best explanation so far because it has the most examples (besides the discussed situation) that support it.

With the Taint, the books have several discussions and there being the fact of different symptoms; the books do not provide any more evidence, and so far only the voice is common in other saidin channelers.

 

 

Semirhages speech told us its a very rare type of madness, to hear a real voice from the past life, and she only knows just that. The fact that Semirhage didnt go into any more detail is simply down to her not being the expert. We havent had a PoV/conversation involving Graendal saying anything contrary to what Semirhage said, and the fact that Graendal has encountered it tells us that this madness is not exclusive to the Taint; she would be very unlikely to see anyone this side of being released from the Dark Ones prison with Rands madness other than Rand because her fame for things of the mind was before the sealing, before the Taint ever existed. Its unlikely that Cadsuane would ever encounter anyone with it other than Rand because this madness is so rare, which is why she doesnt know about it; she knows of Taint madness only, which has definitely had its part in Rands situation but is not by all means the sole contributor. Cadsuane wont have encountered a reborn soul with the past incarnations mind active again, not before Rand.

[Majsju]

Cadsuane wont have encountered a reborn soul with the past incarnations mind active again, not before Rand.

 

She could very well have done that. Only, if she had encountered people with this form of madness, it would be with people who lacks the one thing that makes Rands situation stand out: knowledge. Rand knows who it is that chatters away in his head, he knows that LTT is the previous incarnation of his own soul, so there might be a logic explanation behind it.

For anyone else, it would be just a voice chattering away, and while people are more or less familiar with the concept of reincarnation, that connection is not easily made.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Cadsuane wont have encountered a reborn soul with the past incarnations mind active again, not before Rand.

 

She could very well have done that. Only, if she had encountered people with this form of madness, it would be with people who lacks the one thing that makes Rands situation stand out: knowledge. Rand knows who it is that chatters away in his head, he knows that LTT is the previous incarnation of his own soul, so there might be a logic explanation behind it.

For anyone else, it would be just a voice chattering away, and while people are more or less familiar with the concept of reincarnation, that connection is not easily made.

 

 

 

Going off her being quite experienced I would have thought she would have realised if they were real voices. The fact that Rand has AoL knowledge marks his type of madness apart from anything Cadsuane is likely to have seen. Rand hears a real voice, the people Cadsuane examined wont have, or she would have figured it out somehow. She isnt daft

[Majsju]

Cadsuane wont have encountered a reborn soul with the past incarnations mind active again, not before Rand.

 

She could very well have done that. Only, if she had encountered people with this form of madness, it would be with people who lacks the one thing that makes Rands situation stand out: knowledge. Rand knows who it is that chatters away in his head, he knows that LTT is the previous incarnation of his own soul, so there might be a logic explanation behind it.

For anyone else, it would be just a voice chattering away, and while people are more or less familiar with the concept of reincarnation, that connection is not easily made.

 

 

 

Going off her being quite experienced I would have thought she would have realised if they were real voices. The fact that Rand has AoL knowledge marks his type of madness apart from anything Cadsuane is likely to have seen. Rand hears a real voice, the people Cadsuane examined wont have, or she would have figured it out somehow. She isnt daft

 

You do not think it is quite a leap in reasoning for Cadsuane to go from *Oh, they hear voices' to 'Since they hear voices, the taint must make the barrier between past and present lives to collapse for these people'? Cadusane is extremely intelligent, but she is not White Ajah, she has not shown any expertice, or even nterest in philosophy.

 

And what if she has figured it out? She only tells Rand that the madness causes some men to hear voices, she does not elaborate on her assumption of the reality of these voices.

[OptimusPrime]

Cadsuane wont have encountered a reborn soul with the past incarnations mind active again, not before Rand.

 

She could very well have done that. Only, if she had encountered people with this form of madness, it would be with people who lacks the one thing that makes Rands situation stand out: knowledge. Rand knows who it is that chatters away in his head, he knows that LTT is the previous incarnation of his own soul, so there might be a logic explanation behind it.

For anyone else, it would be just a voice chattering away, and while people are more or less familiar with the concept of reincarnation, that connection is not easily made.

 

 

 

Going off her being quite experienced I would have thought she would have realised if they were real voices. The fact that Rand has AoL knowledge marks his type of madness apart from anything Cadsuane is likely to have seen. Rand hears a real voice, the people Cadsuane examined wont have, or she would have figured it out somehow. She isnt daft

 

You do not think it is quite a leap in reasoning for Cadsuane to go from *Oh, they hear voices' to 'Since they hear voices, the taint must make the barrier between past and present lives to collapse for these people'? Cadusane is extremely intelligent, but she is not White Ajah, she has not shown any expertice, or even nterest in philosophy.

 

And what if she has figured it out? She only tells Rand that the madness causes some men to hear voices, she does not elaborate on her assumption of the reality of these voices.

 

Why would she elaborate on something she had never encountered before? How could she elaborate on something shes never encountered before? If a male channeler hears voices, and you had encountered several mad male channelers who heard voices, you dont suddenly entertain the idea that theyre real voices, not without something to make you change your mind. She has only studied Taint symptoms, and as mentioned previously, Rands madness is extremely rare. The fact that Cadsuane never mentions it is a small (and when I say small I say massive) hint that she has never come across a real voice in someones head, or at the very least, a past life connection like Rands. Cadsuane knows nothing about Rands situation other than what was said in KoD. If a common Taint symptom was to hear a past life voice, Cadsuane would be talking about it before she met Semirhage.

[Majsju]

 

Why would she elaborate on something she had never encountered before? How could she elaborate on something shes never encountered before? If a male channeler hears voices, and you had encountered several mad male channelers who heard voices, you dont suddenly entertain the idea that theyre real voices, not without something to make you change your mind. She has only studied Taint symptoms, and as mentioned previously, Rands madness is extremely rare. The fact that Cadsuane never mentions it is a small (and when I say small I say massive) hint that she has never come across a real voice in someones head, or at the very least, a past life connection like Rands. Cadsuane knows nothing about Rands situation other than what was said in KoD. If a common Taint symptom was to hear a past life voice, Cadsuane would be talking about it before she met Semirhage.

 

That she has never encountered this before is your assumption, nothing Cadsuane says is evidence of that being correct.

And no, you do not suddenly entertain the idea that the voices might be real without something making you change your mind, that is pretty one of the points I raised against your assumption that Cadsuane had so much experience that she should have figured this out. Just how would she have figured it out?

Male channeler: The little voice in my head just told me a story about the trolloc wars...

Cadsuane: Whoah! That totally happened! The little voice in your head must be the voice of a real person, which means it must be your previous incarnation chattering away. I am totally getting brown points for this!

Hmm, or maybe not...

 

Cadsuane does not say that hearing voices is a common symptom, she says that some people experience it. Looking at the number of male channelers she has handled, that could mean anything between 2 and 10, out of a total of 20ish.

[OptimusPrime]

But when she says to Rand "Do you hear voices yet?" do you think she might have said that, if as little 10% of her patients heard a voice?

 

That she has never encountered this before is your assumption, nothing Cadsuane says is evidence of that being correct.

 

Im going to look up in KoD her reaction to Semirhages revelation. Cant remember off the top of my head what it was like but its as good a place to look as any for evidence. Im at work right now though, I'll quote it later.

 

P.S. Maj man, you should have kept the quote chain going!

[Majsju]

But when she says to Rand "Do you hear voices yet?" do you think she might have said that, if as little 10% of her patients heard a voice?

Yes. Even as few as two means that there is a risk Rand might experience the same, and since Cadsuane mentions the voices telling the loonies what to do, it is a risk worth worrying about. And of the various symptoms we have seen, this is the one that she would have cause to ask about, since the others are more obvious.

 

 

Im going to look up in KoD her reaction to Semirhages revelation. Cant remember off the top of my head what it was like but its as good a place to look as any for evidence. Im at work right now though, I'll quote it later.

 

There is no mention of her reacting at all. We see others, like Bashere, Nynaeve and Min reacting, but not Cadsuane. The first mention she gets after the revelation is when she, calm as ever, starts talking to Semi.

 

P.S. Maj man, you should have kept the quote chain going!

Well, no.

[OptimusPrime]

But when she says to Rand "Do you hear voices yet?" do you think she might have said that, if as little 10% of her patients heard a voice?

Yes. Even as few as two means that there is a risk Rand might experience the same, and since Cadsuane mentions the voices telling the loonies what to do, it is a risk worth worrying about. And of the various symptoms we have seen, this is the one that she would have cause to ask about, since the others are more obvious.

 

 

Im going to look up in KoD her reaction to Semirhages revelation. Cant remember off the top of my head what it was like but its as good a place to look as any for evidence. Im at work right now though, I'll quote it later.

 

There is no mention of her reacting at all. We see others, like Bashere, Nynaeve and Min reacting, but not Cadsuane. The first mention she gets after the revelation is when she, calm as ever, starts talking to Semi.

 

P.S. Maj man, you should have kept the quote chain going!

Well, no.

 

Good points. Im still not jumping over the fence though, I still dont think she had any chance of encountering anyone with Rands type because of its rarity despite her age, and I think her level of skill has been hyped up enough for her to be able to know recognise it if she examined someone with it. Only if she was examining though, and she hasnt been in a position to examine Rands mental situation on any respectable level which is why even her experience doesnt reveal it to her. Graendal would have had way longer to encounter more than one person with it.

[a pale tanned lover]

Graendal would have had way longer to encounter more than one person with it.

You do know that your being so opinionated on an argument that you've stressed it just makes you look silly now?

[OptimusPrime]

Graendal would have had way longer to encounter more than one person with it.

You do know that your being so opinionated on an argument that you've stressed it just makes you look silly now?

 

Graendal is older than Cadsuane. IIRC some of the Forsaken were granted a long time way before they were sealed. Longer life means more time to experience anything at all, and Graendals expertise-things of the mind-would have presented her a better likelihood of encountering this type of madness than Cadsuane will have had with her 20s-tops client list. I acknowledged that Maj made good points against it, I dont feel that Im being opinionated.

[a pale tanned lover]

Your whole argument is based on one line from Semi. That makes you opinionated. You have no direct quotes from Graendal. Savvy?