Flying Aes Sedai

[Mandragoran]

What makes you think that? Lews Therin was a politician, why would he have knowledge of aerodynamics? I mean even assuming the theory was taught to every Aes Sedai, the specific needs for the creation of sho-wings (or something of the form, which would be needed for flight even with the power) would be exactly that. Specific.

 

Even if Lew Therin had that knowledge the flow of information would not be enough to give it to Rand.

Just a politician? He was a general in war. Perhaps flying was a hobby. Or else he took a trip into the sky to get a quick view of the battlefields he had to manage. The man was brilliant too, even the Forsaken acknowledge it. With the theoretical grounding you say he'd need, why presume he'd have to deign to recreate sho-wings to fly? The power wasn't needed at all to Dream yet Egwene somehow figured out how to physically enter Tel'aran'rhiod by herself. That's inter-dimensional travel for you and me. In practical terms, flying should be easy after that.

 

The flow of information between Rand and LTT isn't limited to stop Lews taking control of the Source and creating weaves no one has heard of. And that's not counting the subconscious use of the Power that had Rand creating the complex weaves for Traveling and other Talents without really knowing what he was doing. If Rand and Lews Therin were reintegrated(Graendal usually failed in these cases) and two became one to fulfill Min's viewings, he'd have the knowledge of the AoL at his fingertips.

 

 

[t-bag]

If it truly is impossible why are we discussing it? Why is it mentioned in the books?

 

In the AOL could everyone use sho-wings? If so then wouldn’t people say that in the AOL every one could fly, not just Aes Sedai?

 

[Luckers]

Just a politician? He was a general in war. Perhaps flying was a hobby. Or else he took a trip into the sky to get a quick view of the battlefields he had to manage. The man was brilliant too, even the Forsaken acknowledge it. With the theoretical grounding you say he'd need, why presume he'd have to deign to recreate sho-wings to fly? The power wasn't needed at all to Dream yet Egwene somehow figured out how to physically enter Tel'aran'rhiod by herself. That's inter-dimensional travel for you and me. In practical terms, flying should be easy after that.

 

General, politician--neither proffesion provides for the knowledge of physics required to utilise the power in flight.

 

So lets go with practical terms--Egwene made two like places blur. That was her description--she did not understand the forces she used, she went on instinct. Now, please, tell me how flight might be achieved on instinct. How would someone instinctively control the energy expended. For to use the power to fly one would need to expend energy like a rocket--without burning oneself. One would also have to protect against wind sheer, cold, g-forces. One would need to direct the flight, would need to figure out a way to land (and honestly i see no way the power could do that with any degrree of effectiveness). It would require an instinctive ability to deal with forces that take the greatest and most educated math maticians and physicists weeks to deal with--or did you think all those boys on the ground at Nasa did nothing, that the astronauts ran it on instinct?

 

It might, theoretically, be possible. Channelers could exert such forces as would be needed to fly. But why on earth would you think LTT would have such knowledge--and by the way you know the truly brilliant answer to all these issues? You build a metal box and use the power to propel that instead. I believe they did so. It's called a Sho-wing.

 

In the AOL could everyone use sho-wings? If so then wouldn’t people say that in the AOL every one could fly, not just Aes Sedai?

 

"People" don't say it, it was a specific record, and we don't know what record Siuan was referring to. It might simple have said 'Jenny Sedai flew to Tzora for blah blah blah.'

 

You could see why a modern Aes Sedai with misread such a thing.

[Mandragoran]

General, politician--neither proffesion provides for the knowledge of physics required to utilise the power in flight.

A general in the Marine Corps might well disagree, especially if he rose from the ranks of pilots. It's like saying a study of fireworks has done Mat no good. Lews Therin would have to know the full capabilities of his air units to be able to use them effectively in battle. Mobility is critical in battles and nothing provides greater mobility in current warfare than flight. Then there is the natural advantage of higher ground and greater range(larger horizon) that flight brings. Those Aes Sedai who could fly would certainly have uses in a time where warfare was considered to have been perfected. Better fly than run around on the ground.

 

It might, theoretically, be possible. Channelers could exert such forces as would be needed to fly. But why on earth would you think LTT would have such knowledge--and by the way you know the truly brilliant answer to all these issues? You build a metal box and use the power to propel that instead. I believe they did so. It's called a Sho-wing.

So when he needs to get up in the air, he must call in the nearest sho-wing, which has a 35 minute ETA, except big as it is it gets shot down on the way in because shadow forces have made incursions into friendly territory, which was what LTT wanted to get in the air to look for in the first place.

 

"People" don't say it, it was a specific record, and we don't know what record Siuan was referring to. It might simple have said 'Jenny Sedai flew to Tzora for blah blah blah.'

 

You could see why a modern Aes Sedai with misread such a thing.

But there's no reason at all to believe she did.

 

So lets go with practical terms--Egwene made two like places blur. That was her description--she did not understand the forces she used, she went on instinct. Now, please, tell me how flight might be achieved on instinct. How would someone instinctively control the energy expended. For to use the power to fly one would need to expend energy like a rocket--without burning oneself. One would also have to protect against wind sheer, cold, g-forces. One would need to direct the flight, would need to figure out a way to land (and honestly i see no way the power could do that with any degrree of effectiveness). It would require an instinctive ability to deal with forces that take the greatest and most educated math maticians and physicists weeks to deal with--or did you think all those boys on the ground at Nasa did nothing, that the astronauts ran it on instinct?

Wind shear, cold and g-forces are minor obstacles when compared to altering the fabric of reality itself. You're talking about countering and/or altering fundamental nuclear and cosmological forces which the greatest and most educated mathematicians and physicists have little understanding of, much less the ability to deal with on any practical level.

 

But here's one scenario -

 

"Even within the void, the sun beating on his skin grew more fierce as he let the torrent of Saidin pour through him. Lews Therin remained silent but Rand somehow knew what he had to do. An image briefly intruded on his thoughts, a white sphere he recognised from the Age of Legends floated across the void before he could banish it.

 

Without conscious thought he weaved spirit and earth just so, the air shimmered as reality itself bent around him. A feeling of incredible lightness swept through Rand, the harsh sun dimmed and the atmosphere had turned mysteriously cool but that was nothing to the bubble he had created around him. Rand knotted the web as he examined his surroundings.

 

It felt quite like being within a glass orb but this transparent barrier tended to ripple before his eyes. He stepped toward a brush and the bubble moved with him, expecting to envelope the bushes, only they bent away leaves and stems stretching as if refracting around the bubble. Rand moved away and the brush returned as it was, dusty and dry, untouched by the slight damp now touching his skin. Rand couldn't explain it but wherever he was, he was only partly in it. The world he knew still existed on the Outside.

 

Rand resisted the urge to touch the barrier, instead he channeled a gentle thread of fire that slowly passed through it. Suddenly he saw the outer world jump away from him, the ground beneath his feet giving away and incredibly, as if time had slowed, he somehow managed to straighten and get his boots back on the ground - except they weren't. Rand's feet were a few paces above it, resting against the transparent bubble, unsupported as if he were not there at all!

 

Carefully this time, he channeled and the bubble lowered back to the parched soil, slowing as it did. Lews Therin chose the following silence to mournfully point out that the flows of Earth in his weave kept him from being swallowed up by the ground. Rand decided to ignore him, channeling a thick stream of fire downwards this time, he shot up through the air, shocked at the rapid ascent and not feeling the passing wind. Alarmed at the ground rushing away below him, Rand extended a dozen flows in all directions and was brought to an abrupt halt that should have jarred his wits except he didn't feel that either. He breathed in the calm of the void, examining his new position. He was miles above the ground, yet the weather inside the bubble felt exactly the same as it did below. He believed he was right to surmise that only the Power worked through the barrier. The barest flows were required to propel or stop him, weightless as he was, but it was time to see how fast he could really go."

 

 

[Luckers]

A general in the Marine Corps might well disagree, especially if he rose from the ranks of pilots. It's like saying a study of fireworks has done Mat no good. Lews Therin would have to know the full capabilities of his air units to be able to use them effectively in battle. Mobility is critical in battles and nothing provides greater mobility in current warfare than flight. Then there is the natural advantage of higher ground and greater range(larger horizon) that flight brings. Those Aes Sedai who could fly would certainly have uses in a time where warfare was considered to have been perfected. Better fly than run around on the ground.

 

Lews Therin was not a general in the Marine Corps. He did not rise from the ranks of pilots. He was a politician who when pushed to it proved especially brilliant at being a general. And it is not like saying Mat's study in fireworks did him no good--for one thing Lews Therin as far as we know never studied flight, nor figured out how to employ it in a military sense.

 

I'd point out two other things--one, this is not current warfare. Aes Sedai had a much greater method of mobility in traveling. Two, whilst sho-wings and other flying machines were used in the war--at least early on--LTT would have no need to know the theory behind them than mat needs the alchemical knowledge behind creating fireworks in order to employ them.

 

As for all that about Aes Sedai who could fly being better than running on the ground--have you considered that? Utilizing the power in flight would require tremendous strength and would result in tremendous speed. We are not talking of Aes Sedai swooping along like Peter Pan, we are talking of human rockets. Energy expended to create the momentum needed to escape gravity. Where on earth would that be useful in war, even if it is possible to do without killing oneself?

 

Quote

It might, theoretically, be possible. Channelers could exert such forces as would be needed to fly. But why on earth would you think LTT would have such knowledge--and by the way you know the truly brilliant answer to all these issues? You build a metal box and use the power to propel that instead. I believe they did so. It's called a Sho-wing.

 

So when he needs to get up in the air, he must call in the nearest sho-wing, which has a 35 minute ETA, except big as it is it gets shot down on the way in because shadow forces have made incursions into friendly territory, which was what LTT wanted to get in the air to look for in the first place.

 

You're ignoring the obvious--that when he wanted to get into the air, he couldn't.

 

By the way sho-wings came in various sizes, and there were also jumpers and hoverflies to be used--at least in the first three years of the ward. After that most such things were destroyed.

 

Quote

"People" don't say it, it was a specific record, and we don't know what record Siuan was referring to. It might simple have said 'Jenny Sedai flew to Tzora for blah blah blah.'

 

You could see why a modern Aes Sedai with misread such a thing.

But there's no reason at all to believe she did.

 

You mean other than the fact that using the power to fly would have been impractical, pointless, and probably fatal?

 

Quote

So lets go with practical terms--Egwene made two like places blur. That was her description--she did not understand the forces she used, she went on instinct. Now, please, tell me how flight might be achieved on instinct. How would someone instinctively control the energy expended. For to use the power to fly one would need to expend energy like a rocket--without burning oneself. One would also have to protect against wind sheer, cold, g-forces. One would need to direct the flight, would need to figure out a way to land (and honestly i see no way the power could do that with any degrree of effectiveness). It would require an instinctive ability to deal with forces that take the greatest and most educated math maticians and physicists weeks to deal with--or did you think all those boys on the ground at Nasa did nothing, that the astronauts ran it on instinct?

 

 

Wind shear, cold and g-forces are minor obstacles when compared to altering the fabric of reality itself. You're talking about countering and/or altering fundamental nuclear and cosmological forces which the greatest and most educated mathematicians and physicists have little understanding of, much less the ability to deal with on any practical level.

 

'Altering fundemental nuclear and cosmological forces'? What are you talking about? 'nuclear' forces involve forces produced in the splitting of the atom. Cosmological forces? Cosmology is the game of philosophers.

 

You're wrong though, in whatever you were trying to say. Such control of exact forces as in flight is by far more complex than Egwene's instinctive and unthinking understanding interdimensional travel.

 

But here's one scenario -

 

That's what your arguments amount to, doesn't it? A fantasy scene in your head in which this is  employed? Here's the cold hard fact--the way the power works makes the use of flight impractical and stupid--and very very dangerous, if it's possible at all.

[Mandragoran]

Lews Therin was not a general in the Marine Corps. He did not rise from the ranks of pilots. He was a politician who when pushed to it proved especially brilliant at being a general. And it is not like saying Mat's study in fireworks did him no good--for one thing Lews Therin as far as we know never studied flight, nor figured out how to employ it in a military sense.

 

I'd point out two other things--one, this is not current warfare. Aes Sedai had a much greater method of mobility in traveling. Two, whilst sho-wings and other flying machines were used in the war--at least early on--LTT would have no need to know the theory behind them than mat needs the alchemical knowledge behind creating fireworks in order to employ them.

Ok, replace current warfare with three-dimensional warfare and reread my post. Even Traveling amounts to mobility on a two-dimensional plain. Just because we don't know Lews Therin had studied flight, doesn't mean he didn't. Flight was an everyday reality in the AoL. Buildings hovered in the air. To the best of Siuan's knowledge, Aes Sedai could fly. Lews Therin oversaw the culmination of an age where warfare evolved from being newly discovered to being honed to perfection. And as the champion of light he stood at the forefront of the war and the innovations that led to that perfection. Just as Mat stands in an era where he foresees a new kind of conventional war, one where he strikes at his enemies from beyond visual range. And Mat did want that knowledge when he spent days pondering Aludra's question on the manufacture of fireworks- acquiring the information was their agreement before he decided to take her along instead. With those who use the Power it's different, they're more curious to learn. Everyone among the Salidar rebels would try a new weave to see if they were capable of it. Lews Therin's own enemies acknowledged his brilliance. It's not a leap to imagine that flight was one of the battle innovations he supported and learned.

 

As for all that about Aes Sedai who could fly being better than running on the ground--have you considered that? Utilizing the power in flight would require tremendous strength and would result in tremendous speed. We are not talking of Aes Sedai swooping along like Peter Pan, we are talking of human rockets. Energy expended to create the momentum needed to escape gravity. Where on earth would that be useful in war, even if it is possible to do without killing oneself?

Aes Sedai can summon storms, cause earthquakes and scour battlefields in fire for hours while fighting. Every explosion, every Blossom of Fire they cause can send bodies flying.

 

There is comparatively little energy required for human flight. Check out the jetpack videos I posted earlier. And that's assuming we need to replicate human rockets. You've already said that recreating a sho-wing would be too specific.

 

You're ignoring the obvious--that when he wanted to get into the air, he couldn't.

 

By the way sho-wings came in various sizes, and there were also jumpers and hoverflies to be used--at least in the first three years of the ward. After that most such things were destroyed.

I wasn't ignoring it at all. Just pointing out that whatever aircraft he used, a hypothetically flightless Lews Therin would still be dependent on them when he could have flown and got the job done himself, well before a sho-wing responded. I was addressing the need for flight.

 

You mean other than the fact that using the power to fly would have been impractical, pointless, and probably fatal?

That would be your opinion, not Siuan's.

 

'Altering fundemental nuclear and cosmological forces'? What are you talking about? 'nuclear' forces involve forces produced in the splitting of the atom. Cosmological forces? Cosmology is the game of philosophers.

 

You're wrong though, in whatever you were trying to say. Such control of exact forces as in flight is by far more complex than Egwene's instinctive and unthinking understanding interdimensional travel.

Perhaps 'forces that could alter the atomic structure' would have been more accurate? Heck, I'm not sure that's right. I mean, how do you produce any similarity between say, a Nitrogen rich environment to an oxygen rich one? You would have to convert one element to the other on both sides and that's just one set to deal with. And Cosmology is a broad enough term unless you choose to limit it to metaphysics, etc..

 

The only reason why anyone would think flight is more complicated is because it is better understood. We know what it involves. But even the knowns of inter-dimensional travel outstrip flight in complexity, that's why it is considered impossible. You're ignoring the nature of the problems involved by sweeping them under a carpet of Egwene's 'instinct and unthinking understanding'. Birds, insects and bats can fly by instinct. They can feed, hunt, communicate, observe and even mate while up in the air and don't seem to expend much energy doing so. The mechanics may be different but why shouldn't the power be just as efficient- it's more a natural force than a technological one.

 

Either you deal with both issues on a purely practical level or you don't. Which brings me to my next point.

 

That's what your arguments amount to, doesn't it? A fantasy scene in your head in which this is  employed? Here's the cold hard fact--the way the power works makes the use of flight impractical and stupid--and very very dangerous, if it's possible at all.

Ha! Aren't we discussing a fantasy novel? Isn't the Power a construct of pure fantasy? You can accept Egwene's warping of reality to enter a dimension where gravity, etc. can be overcome by simple thought yet unwilling to accept one that causes a bubbled reality because it deals with flight??

 

I explained Flight in the same terms as you accept Egwene entering Tel'aran'rhiod. Why are they suddenly objectionable? Because I didn't replicate a strictly mechanical mode of flying? Is that the way the Power works? Do they rub flows in friction to produce fire?

 

The cold hard fact is we don't know everything the power is capable of. Even those who think they know how it works, end up surprised by something new. Except, from the little we've been told, Flight is not new.

 

 

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

If a channeler can create the required potential difference for lightning, they should have no trouble charging up an asymmetrical capacitor, holding on for dear life, and zooming into the distance:

 

Or they could rotate flows of air around a rotor to generate lift...

Or push them through a jet engine...

 

Of course, flight without an external device to produce a force against gravity is impossible.  The closest thing might be a "superjump", where the channeler springs off the ground through some sort of "air catapault", but they would follow a ballistic trajectory.  Also, they would need a method to land safely.

 

Flight does not require antigravity, or any sort of "defiance" of gravity.

[Luckers]

Ok, replace current warfare with three-dimensional warfare and reread my post. Even Traveling amounts to mobility on a two-dimensional plain. Just because we don't know Lews Therin had studied flight, doesn't mean he didn't. Flight was an everyday reality in the AoL. Buildings hovered in the air. To the best of Siuan's knowledge, Aes Sedai could fly. Lews Therin oversaw the culmination of an age where warfare evolved from being newly discovered to being honed to perfection. And as the champion of light he stood at the forefront of the war and the innovations that led to that perfection. Just as Mat stands in an era where he foresees a new kind of conventional war, one where he strikes at his enemies from beyond visual range. And Mat did want that knowledge when he spent days pondering Aludra's question on the manufacture of fireworks- acquiring the information was their agreement before he decided to take her along instead. With those who use the Power it's different, they're more curious to learn. Everyone among the Salidar rebels would try a new weave to see if they were capable of it. Lews Therin's own enemies acknowledged his brilliance. It's not a leap to imagine that flight was one of the battle innovations he supported and learned.

 

So your argument it 'you don't know, therefore...'

 

Aes Sedai can summon storms, cause earthquakes and scour battlefields in fire for hours while fighting. Every explosion, every Blossom of Fire they cause can send bodies flying.

 

There is comparatively little energy required for human flight. Check out the jetpack videos I posted earlier. And that's assuming we need to replicate human rockets. You've already said that recreating a sho-wing would be too specific.

 

Actually there would be massive energy needs, and skill needs. To fly an Aes sedai would have to produce enough heat and energy to lift themselves whilst shielding themselves from that same heat and energy. Direction would add a third element, as would protection from G-forces, cold, low oxygen. And lets not forget landing.

 

Once again you seem to have this image in your head of channelers floating around like peter pan. It would not work like that. The only viable way for personal flight is for the channelers to make themselves into human rockets--the control and the protections nessasary to do such a thing make this implausible.

 

I wasn't ignoring it at all. Just pointing out that whatever aircraft he used, a hypothetically flightless Lews Therin would still be dependent on them when he could have flown and got the job done himself, well before a sho-wing responded. I was addressing the need for flight.

 

So he has a need for flight--how would this help? The only way the power could cause flight would involve such concentration and would result in such speed that it would be pointless for military use.

 

Thats even assuming Lews Therin had such skills, which is unlikely given he was a politician and not a one power expert.

 

Quote

You mean other than the fact that using the power to fly would have been impractical, pointless, and probably fatal?

 

That would be your opinion, not Siuan's.

 

Yes, but that doesn't serve your point--I know a great deal more about what is and is not possible with the Power than Siuan does.

 

Perhaps 'forces that could alter the atomic structure' would have been more accurate? Heck, I'm not sure that's right. I mean, how do you produce any similarity between say, a Nitrogen rich environment to an oxygen rich one? You would have to convert one element to the other on both sides and that's just one set to deal with. And Cosmology is a broad enough term unless you choose to limit it to metaphysics, etc..

 

No, that would have been no more accurate, nor is your example relevant. And cosmology is a metaphysical term. It is used occaisionally in astronomy, but even that is not within the idea of what you were trying to say.

 

The only reason why anyone would think flight is more complicated is because it is better understood. We know what it involves. But even the knowns of inter-dimensional travel outstrip flight in complexity, that's why it is considered impossible. You're ignoring the nature of the problems involved by sweeping them under a carpet of Egwene's 'instinct and unthinking understanding'. Birds, insects and bats can fly by instinct. They can feed, hunt, communicate, observe and even mate while up in the air and don't seem to expend much energy doing so. The mechanics may be different but why shouldn't the power be just as efficient- it's more a natural force than a technological one.

 

No, the power allows for instinctive action. Causing effects--not because you understand the forces involve, but because you have a feel for what is happening. That happens with Egwene, it could not happen with flight--such would require specific control as reaction to the specific state.

 

Quote

That's what your arguments amount to, doesn't it? A fantasy scene in your head in which this is  employed? Here's the cold hard fact--the way the power works makes the use of flight impractical and stupid--and very very dangerous, if it's possible at all.

 

Ha! Aren't we discussing a fantasy novel? Isn't the Power a construct of pure fantasy?

 

One with proscribed rules, stated by the author. Inventing stories in which your theory occurs is called fanfiction. Fanfiction is not an acceptable basis for a theory.

[Cillian]

 

"People" don't say it, it was a specific record, and we don't know what record Siuan was referring to. It might simple have said 'Jenny Sedai flew to Tzora for blah blah blah.'

 

You could see why a modern Aes Sedai with misread such a thing.

 

But there's no reason at all to believe she did.

 

There's plenty reason. Seriously.

1. We the reader know of Sho-Wings and the like. People of the current Age don't.

2. We've seen time and again in the series that just because someone believes something, doesn't mean it's actually true.

e.g. In the first few books "Ba'alzamon" was believed to be Trolloc for "Dark One". We find out later that it isn't.

 

Most likely flying was only done with Sho-Wings and the like machines but was misinterpreted by Siuan to mean Aes Sedai were pulling a Superman.

[The Doctor]

I like my bat wings of the power theory still.  A large enough wingspan could create enough air resistance for lift, it would not be super complicated to weave the bone like portions of the wings and tie them off, and possibly even tie off the leathery portion of the flows, the channeler at that point would only have to concentrate on the motion and direction of the "wings."  It's hard for me to fully explain what I mean.  But I promise you guys it makes sense.

[a great fantasy fan]

Meh

 

The bat wings of the power thing dosen't seem plausible either....

 

Bats need to move their comparitivly large wings very fast to make enough lifting power to lift their tiny little bodies. And therefore your statement here

 

A large enough wingspan could create enough air resistance for lift

And i understand what you are saying. But really it seems pretty inplausible because of the concentration of moving such a large weave so fast.

 

Then there is the whiplash factor of moving said wings so fast. And where would they attatch the weave on themselves? their entire half of their body? Their forearm bones would snap under the horizontal pressure that is nessisary to lift a human body. You can do a pull up, but if you tried to curl you weight on a dumbell, most likely your arm would snap, pop out of it's socket, or both. Even if you were a professional body builder. It doesn't matter how much muscle matter you have, your arm bones just cannot take that much pressure.

 

I understand the attractiveness of personal prolonged flight. I have dreamed of it many times before, and none too few were based on the "i am an all powerful WoT channeler" thing. And the base of that is that it doesn't have to make sense. Its another universe that exists only in the pages of the books and our imaginations. Other people can tell you that its impractical and impossible and all those big words :D

 

But here on this forum we are seriously considering the plausibility of Aes Setai flying with the information given by RJ and physics. So sorry, but I am here to say that in the words of RJ through Rand through asmo

 

"Asmodean told him it was impossible, but Rand was not sure he could trust him"

 

or something along the lines of that....

 

by the way i haven't been on for a while and i might as well point out something that was said to state how much force it would take to lift a person

 

HOW many megatons of rocket fuel does it take to power a rocket to space???

Megatons of fuel to lift a person off the ground? How fast do they really have to go and where does escape velocity even enter into the picture? If it's slow & low enough, would control and protection really be issues?

 

Did you read the next part?

 

even counting the fact that the weight is much less with just one comparitively small human being, how could you generate the force continuously enough to make prolonged liftoff???

 

I am just pointing out that I was pointing out how much it takes to put things up in the air and how it would be one of those weaves that would exhaust quickly. Maybe i wasn't too clear. My bad.

[David Hermes]

How ironic! I was just thinking about using air weaves to make wings to fly myself and here someone else has come up with the theory! Though I was tinking more on the lines of angel feathery wings. Ever read Maximum Ride? In the story some people have been operated on and given some bird genes and have large bird wings. My point is that the Aes Sedai can fashion air wings on their backs. Ever considered that although the air wings are solid they might also be weightless, so the wings don't have to be taken into account when trying to lift your own weight. Also if they are not going to fight then they can put all their concentration into moving their "wings" so I think The Doctor is right! ;)

[The Doctor]

Good looking out Hermes.  And while bats have to flutter their wings, I may have been mistaken in my comparison.  I don't believe Raken or To'Raken are very fluttery, they just have a large enough wingspan to capture all that air.  Like a glider or parachute.

 

Actually I saw a special on either Discovery or History once about how the physics might have worked for Dragons to have been dinosaurs.  It involved them producing a lighter than air gas through their diet and digestive system and having a hollow chamber in their body somewhere that housed it, that combined with their wings would have allowed their overly massive bodies to fly without having hollow bones, and it would be what allowed them to breathe fire, although once they used their "breath weapon" they would lose their ability to fly or use it again until their bodies produced more gas.  If necessary it would be possible for the channeler to weave a similar chamber outside of themselves, using hot air instead of whatever gas it was, to aid the wings in providing lift.  The weaves for the chamber could be tied off, and the weaves for the hot air might only be necessary to gain altitude, if the chamber and hot air were even necessary in the first place.  It might seem like it would be complicated, but people have it in them to learn any number of complicated tasks through practice.  Of course the question could be asked, why?  Travelling and skimming would be much more efficient as means of transportation.  The answer of course is for the same reason as the Seanchan use Raken.  Scouting and taking a lay of them land.  Plus let us not forget the "Death from Above!!!" factor.  Even if all their ability to channel was used up by the act of flight, a channeler could still drop things or fire a bow or crossbow from out of bow range.  Fireworks for instance could be dropped or attached to arrows.  not to say that anything like this will happen, I highly doubt it, but I believe it could happen.  Not necessarily in this story, but in this world rather.

[Mandragoran]

So your argument it 'you don't know, therefore...'

That's better than the attitude of 'I know better' without any basis in this fiction's canon.

 

Yes, but that doesn't serve your point--I know a great deal more about what is and is not possible with the Power than Siuan does.

No you don't. She actually works with the power. Experience counts for far more than armchair speculation. She knows much of what Egwene learned from Moghedien. Her beliefs as Amyrlin might well be shared by many among the Tower, with support from texts we don't know about. We haven't seen her contradict flight yet. The author introduced the idea of flight into canon through her and hasn't contradicted it. Nothing you've had to say overturns that.

 

Actually there would be massive energy needs, and skill needs. To fly an Aes sedai would have to produce enough heat and energy to lift themselves whilst shielding themselves from that same heat and energy. Direction would add a third element, as would protection from G-forces, cold, low oxygen. And lets not forget landing.

Slow and easy does the trick? I've explained this before. With compressed air streams of non-combustible gases, heat shielding is not an issue. A lift weave could raise the chaneller to the desired altitude before being tied off to maintain it. Direction would require a second thrust weave without which they would just hover, more important would be stabilization which is just as manageable in terms of reflexes when channelers can stop thrown knives if they can see them. G-forces would only apply to high speeds, cold and low oxygen to high altitudes so we can ignore them. Landing shouldn't be a problem if the flows for lift are slowly lessened. You've forgotten structural support, the channeler can weave a chair out of air to sit on, and tie it up so it doesn't require further thought. The thrust weaves can be directed off of it.

 

But I think they would have moved beyond rockets in the Age of Legends.

 

So he has a need for flight--how would this help? The only way the power could cause flight would involve such concentration and would result in such speed that it would be pointless for military use.

Even basing flight on early 21st century flight technology as you suggest, scouting & tracking targets from the air alone would be crucial for military use. It would certainly have been useful against the Shaido/Brotherless who kidnapped Faile if Perrin's Asha'man could track them from the air. Their use of Traveling lost them days and required a lot of manual searching even when they got it right.

 

No, the power allows for instinctive action. Causing effects--not because you understand the forces involve, but because you have a feel for what is happening. That happens with Egwene, it could not happen with flight--such would require specific control as reaction to the specific state.

Why flight alone? Odd that you think the Power provides a feel for alternate dimensions but can't for this one? Except the Oneness alone gives you an awareness of everything around you. The Power amplifies this, so would you explain why if storm management is possible, which would involve specific controls that counter intense wind flows and heavy precipitates, even on a localized scale, why not also human flight?

 

One with proscribed rules, stated by the author. Inventing stories in which your theory occurs is called fanfiction. Fanfiction is not an acceptable basis for a theory.

I've used the same proscribed rules for a theoretical scenario created to address your specifications of having the chaneller fly from 'instinct and unthinking understanding'. You're accepting the proscribed rules only for what's established without applicability towards further uses.

 

Once again you seem to have this image in your head of channelers floating around like peter pan. It would not work like that. The only viable way for personal flight is for the channelers to make themselves into human rockets--the control and the protections nessasary to do such a thing make this implausible.

This is the second time you've used the Peter Pan analogy. Is that what I've written? So you think creating a low or zero inertia environment with the aid of inter-dimensional travel and the altering of reality that's already been established in canon is not viable? Or that the low inertia environment itself, as a construct of the power with position relative to the external area, cannot be plausibly powered into flight by the slightest forces applied to it?

 

 

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on July 01, 2009, 08:22:40 AM

So your argument it 'you don't know, therefore...'

 

That's better than the attitude of 'I know better' without any basis in this fiction's canon.

 

But i do have a basis--we know they cannot simply flit about, Air cannot be used to create flight. Therefore they are subject to the basic rules of flight--momentum and aerodynamics--and throw in the human elements of such things--presure, g-force and temperature.

 

So no dude, it's not better than that. Sorry.

 

No you don't. She actually works with the power. Experience counts for far more than armchair speculation. She knows much of what Egwene learned from Moghedien. Her beliefs as Amyrlin might well be shared by many among the Tower, with support from texts we don't know about. We haven't seen her contradict flight yet. The author introduced the idea of flight into canon through her and hasn't contradicted it. Nothing you've had to say overturns that.

 

Moghedian has not contradicted flight in the flitty Peter Pan method you describe, but Asmodean has. So yes, i do know more than she does, and not just in that, because i know about things like sho-wings, overflies amd jumpers.

 

Slow and easy does the trick? I've explained this before. With compressed air streams of non-combustible gases, heat shielding is not an issue. A lift weave could raise the chaneller to the desired altitude before being tied off to maintain it. Direction would require a second thrust weave without which they would just hover, more important would be stabilization which is just as manageable in terms of reflexes when channelers can stop thrown knives if they can see them. G-forces would only apply to high speeds, cold and low oxygen to high altitudes so we can ignore them. Landing shouldn't be a problem if the flows for lift are slowly lessened. You've forgotten structural support, the channeler can weave a chair out of air to sit on, and tie it up so it doesn't require further thought. The thrust weaves can be directed off of it.

 

But I think they would have moved beyond rockets in the Age of Legends.

 

They have. Sho-wings, hoverflies and jumpers. Personal lift, were it possible, would require extreme initiated momentum. Rockets.

 

Quote

So he has a need for flight--how would this help? The only way the power could cause flight would involve such concentration and would result in such speed that it would be pointless for military use.

 

Even basing flight on early 21st century flight technology as you suggest, scouting & tracking targets from the air alone would be crucial for military use. It would certainly have been useful against the Shaido/Brotherless who kidnapped Faile if Perrin's Asha'man could track them from the air. Their use of Traveling lost them days and required a lot of manual searching even when they got it right.

 

We arn't basing flight on early 21st century technology, we are basing it on what a channeler could do--and channeling for flight would result in such speed, and require such attention that even if they survived it they would not have been any use for scouting and tracking.

 

Quote

No, the power allows for instinctive action. Causing effects--not because you understand the forces involve, but because you have a feel for what is happening. That happens with Egwene, it could not happen with flight--such would require specific control as reaction to the specific state.

 

 

Why flight alone? Odd that you think the Power provides a feel for alternate dimensions but can't for this one? Except the Oneness alone gives you an awareness of everything around you. The Power amplifies this, so would you explain why if storm management is possible, which would involve specific controls that counter intense wind flows and heavy precipitates, even on a localized scale, why not also human flight?

 

Why odd? The first requires you to 'link' feelings of 'similarity' and force them together so that they are the same. The later requires specific control of heat, gravity, presure and temperature--and more than that, requires that you constantly adjust your manipulation of such, since they change as you fly.

 

The two arn't comprable--the first was an act of instinct, without concious knowledge, the second would require constant intelligent adjustment of multiple specific forces.

 

Quote

One with proscribed rules, stated by the author. Inventing stories in which your theory occurs is called fanfiction. Fanfiction is not an acceptable basis for a theory.

 

I've used the same proscribed rules for a theoretical scenario created to address your specifications of having the chaneller fly from 'instinct and unthinking understanding'. You're accepting the proscribed rules only for what's established without applicability towards further uses.

 

No, I've applied those rules, as stated, to what you suggest. I was even the one who originally suggested a way that personal flight might be possible despite the evidence in the text that such was neither attempted or achieved.

 

Your Peter Pan fantasy, however, i dismiss.

 

Quote

Once again you seem to have this image in your head of channelers floating around like peter pan. It would not work like that. The only viable way for personal flight is for the channelers to make themselves into human rockets--the control and the protections nessasary to do such a thing make this implausible.

 

This is the second time you've used the Peter Pan analogy. Is that what I've written? So you think creating a low or zero inertia environment with the aid of inter-dimensional travel and the altering of reality that's already been established in canon is not viable? Or that the low inertia environment itself, as a construct of the power with position relative to the external area, cannot be plausibly powered into flight by the slightest forces applied to it?

 

The simple answer to that is yes I think neither are viable. Since you've pushed the issue, both are sophistic--which is to say using fancy words you don't understand which in culmulation say nothing, much like your claim to cosmological and nuclear 'forces'.

 

Or, in your terms, the entropic devaluation of the dimensional equalibrium expressly forbids multi-divisional influences on the static manipulations of reality. Therefore any claim to variance in the inertial forces cannot be applied--quid pro quo--to the canon in any reliable manner.

 

The real answer is nothing you suggest is viably possible, or even plausible, based on the stated use of the Power.

[Mandragoran]

But i do have a basis--we know they cannot simply flit about, Air cannot be used to create flight. Therefore they are subject to the basic rules of flight--momentum and aerodynamics--and throw in the human elements of such things--presure, g-force and temperature.

 

So no dude, it's not better than that. Sorry.

Correction: Air cannot be used to lift oneself directly with the power. Big difference. And yes, powered flight would subject them to some of those rules. You can reread earlier parts of this discussion where all of this has been addressed.

 

Moghedian has not contradicted flight in the flitty Peter Pan method you describe, but Asmodean has. So yes, i do know more than she does, and not just in that, because i know about things like sho-wings, overflies amd jumpers.

Care to quote Asmodean so we can discuss it? And any knowledge about those machines is limited to their existence but not how they worked nor whether all Aes Sedai used them. Siuan was speaking in context of the power.

 

They have. Sho-wings, hoverflies and jumpers. Personal lift, were it possible, would require extreme initiated momentum. Rockets.

That depends on how well you know the technology behind those machines. If they understood and were able to utilize say, anti-gravity measures, those could be simulated with the Power for personal lift or reality itself altered enough to counteract gravity.

 

Gravity manipulations with the Power should be possible, Rand's explanation of folding the pattern(space) to Travel matches that of Einstein-Rosen Bridges.

 

We arn't basing flight on early 21st century technology, we are basing it on what a channeler could do--and channeling for flight would result in such speed, and require such attention that even if they survived it they would not have been any use for scouting and tracking.

Those people on jetpacks don't seem to be flying fast enough to kill themselves. Scouting may require you to slow or stop and hover on lifting thrusts with the occasional stabilization. If a channeler of sufficient strength can pull off 4 flows at a time, they can fly & certainly hover. I've already addressed those in the passage you previously quoted, as well as earlier in this thread.

 

Why odd? The first requires you to 'link' feelings of 'similarity' and force them together so that they are the same.

It requires you to 'create' a similarity. There was nothing of linking, feeling or even finding her way around ever mentioned in canon, Egwene did it briskly in her first try with a weave.

 

The later requires specific control of heat, gravity, presure and temperature--and more than that, requires that you constantly adjust your manipulation of such, since they change as you fly.

Why should it though? Everything else with the Power seems to be done with a weave and no particular knowledge of countervailing forces. You didn't even respond to my question about storm manipulation. If the power worked the way you suggest, the channeler would have to intricately balance intense winds, air pressure and precipitates on a massive scale. No two storms are alike and those are forces so varied, powerful & fluctuating, it is very difficult to predict them much less handle. On a scale of complexity, governing the flight of a single person through specific and constant manipulations would be easy in comparison.

 

Once again you seem to have this image in your head of channelers floating around like peter pan. It would not work like that. The only viable way for personal flight is for the channelers to make themselves into human rockets--the control and the protections nessasary to do such a thing make this implausible.

 

The simple answer to that is yes I think neither are viable. Since you've pushed the issue, both are sophistic--which is to say using fancy words you don't understand which in culmulation say nothing, much like your claim to cosmological and nuclear 'forces'.

It might seem like Peter Pan flying only to someone who cannot channel but the Power is at work here. I corrected myself on the use of nuclear forces but I suggest you look up the definition of cosmology. This is a fine discussion and I'd like to avoid ad hominem arguments, please.

 

Or, in your terms, the entropic devaluation of the dimensional equalibrium expressly forbids multi-divisional influences on the static manipulations of reality. Therefore any claim to variance in the inertial forces cannot be applied--quid pro quo--to the canon in any reliable manner.

Except inertial forces don't apply because the weave does maintain dimensional equilibrium.

 

 

[Luckers]

Correction: Air cannot be used to lift oneself directly with the power. Big difference. And yes, powered flight would subject them to some of those rules. You can reread earlier parts of this discussion where all of this has been addressed.

 

I read them the first time, thanks though.

 

Care to quote Asmodean so we can discuss it? And any knowledge about those machines is limited to their existence but not how they worked nor whether all Aes Sedai used them. Siuan was speaking in context of the power.

 

"[Rand] wondered how much she would trust if she knew that this was as far as he could weave a bridge like this. One pace farther, one foot, and the whole thing would have given way at the first step. At that point it became like trying to lift yourself with the Power, an impossibility; even the Forsaken did not know why, any more than they knew why a woman, could make a longer bridge than a man even if she was not as strong. It was not a matter of weight; any amount of weight could cross any bridge."

 

Admittedly I'm assuming that Asmodean was his source but I don't really recall any of the other forsaken chatting with him about flight.

 

That depends on how well you know the technology behind those machines. If they understood and were able to utilize say, anti-gravity measures, those could be simulated with the Power for personal lift or reality itself altered enough to counteract gravity.

 

Gravity manipulations with the Power should be possible, Rand's explanation of folding the pattern(space) to Travel matches that of Einstein-Rosen Bridges.

 

Maybe--I mean the Power-fairies would have helped so it's certainly possible.

 

Quote

We arn't basing flight on early 21st century technology, we are basing it on what a channeler could do--and channeling for flight would result in such speed, and require such attention that even if they survived it they would not have been any use for scouting and tracking.

 

 

Those people on jetpacks don't seem to be flying fast enough to kill themselves. Scouting may require you to slow or stop and hover on lifting thrusts with the occasional stabilization. If a channeler of sufficient strength can pull off 4 flows at a time, they can fly & certainly hover. I've already addressed those in the passage you previously quoted, as well as earlier in this thread.

 

You do know jetpacks don't work--the control of inertia required to achieve flight and still leave their passenger alive makes them utterl useless. Oh yes they are a fine gimic, they can lift you maybe twenty feet off the ground at a slow and cautious rise, and then land you again (often with extreme injury).

 

But military use? No. This brings us back to my comment--even were flight possible, which we don't know it to be, it would be impractical, useless and potentially fatal.

 

Quote

Why odd? The first requires you to 'link' feelings of 'similarity' and force them together so that they are the same.

 

 

It requires you to 'create' a similarity. There was nothing of linking, feeling or even finding her way around ever mentioned in canon, Egwene did it briskly in her first try with a weave.

 

One, you're wrong. We know feelings about either the origin point or the destination point are nessasary.

 

Two, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Create a similarity? Do you really think that involves an understanding of the exact forces in play? No, they do something very complex by instinct. They have no knowledge of what they are doing, just a feeling of how it should be done.

 

That would not work with flight.

 

Quote

The later requires specific control of heat, gravity, presure and temperature--and more than that, requires that you constantly adjust your manipulation of such, since they change as you fly.

 

Why should it though? Everything else with the Power seems to be done with a weave and no particular knowledge of countervailing forces. You didn't even respond to my question about storm manipulation. If the power worked the way you suggest, the channeler would have to intricately balance intense winds, air pressure and precipitates on a massive scale. No two storms are alike and those are forces so varied, powerful & fluctuating, it is very difficult to predict them much less handle. On a scale of complexity, governing the flight of a single person through specific and constant manipulations would be easy in comparison.

 

The simple answer is because it does. We know this from the books.

 

The longer answer is that things like stormweaving and so forth do not involve extreme stress--we know flight would require a rocket-like effect, which to be anything big would involve extreme speed, g-forces, heat and cold and so forth. Why? Becuase its impossible to simply lift oneself with the power.

 

Yes, these things are possible--but doing them would be such a stressful and dramatic thing that it would most probably be fatal, and certainly be useless. Thats why they created sho-wings and hoverflies and the like. A metal box which doesn't leave you out in the elements of what you are doing.

 

The simple answer to that is yes I think neither are viable. Since you've pushed the issue, both are sophistic--which is to say using fancy words you don't understand which in culmulation say nothing, much like your claim to cosmological and nuclear 'forces'.

 

 

It might seem like Peter Pan flying only to someone who cannot channel but the Power is at work here. I corrected myself on the use of nuclear forces but I suggest you look up the definition of cosmology. This is a fine discussion and I'd like to avoid ad hominem arguments, please.

 

There is a difference between ad hominem and not knowing what the hell your talking about. You asked me 'So you think creating a low or zero inertia environment with the aid of inter-dimensional travel and the altering of reality that's already been established in canon is not viable?' To which the only answer was, and is--you don't know what you were talking about.

 

Ad hominem is to attack someone on their method when you can't attack their argument. Say;-

 

"As a good catholic man i abhor rape".

 

"The Catholic Church supported the holocaust so clearly you DO support rape!"

 

Calling out your bulldiddy ain't ad hominem my friend, it's me saying your argument has no grapes. You used big sounding words to say nothing. Sophism.

 

Quote

Or, in your terms, the entropic devaluation of the dimensional equalibrium expressly forbids multi-divisional influences on the static manipulations of reality. Therefore any claim to variance in the inertial forces cannot be applied--quid pro quo--to the canon in any reliable manner.

 

Except inertial forces don't apply because the weave does maintain dimensional equilibrium.

 

You are right, but only on sundays and public holidays, but not at any other time.

[Phariah]

i might be mistaked ,but i think i remember a FAQ question where  RJ states flat out Aes Sedai cannot use OP to fly themselves

 

the way i see Siuan say that Aes Sedai flew i would take it as ancient re-written texts or stories that probably started in original text like " and those Aes Sedai that couldn't Travel , used the Sho-wings to fly between countries " and by the time Siuan heard it , it was " an Aes Sedai flew around "

 

as to using the OP to enhance mechanical device , i definately can see that happenning in Rand time , remember that school in Cairhein with the lady that will probably start jumping off the hill with a glider when the weather breaks  ;)

 

also dont forget they are advancing pretty good with the one dude working on electricity an the other with steampower

after TG Aes Sedai of the Brown an White will have a ball at Rand's schools im betting  ;D 

( Aes Sedai help craft the first steam powered plane , flight lasts 13 seconds  ::) )

[Mandragoran]

I read them the first time, thanks though.

Then why rewrite it as something else? The impossibility of lifting oneself with the power has been well established early on in this thread. Those of us attempting to conduct a constructive discussion here have been trying to work around this to establish some understanding of flight.

 

"[Rand] wondered how much she would trust if she knew that this was as far as he could weave a bridge like this. One pace farther, one foot, and the whole thing would have given way at the first step. At that point it became like trying to lift yourself with the Power, an impossibility; even the Forsaken did not know why, any more than they knew why a woman, could make a longer bridge than a man even if she was not as strong. It was not a matter of weight; any amount of weight could cross any bridge."

 

Admittedly I'm assuming that Asmodean was his source but I don't really recall any of the other forsaken chatting with him about flight.

That doesn't contradict Siuan, it reinforces that she knew what she was talking about. It does not contradict flight as you'd said earlier(which you seem to like having repeated to you). On the contrary, it sheds light on support constructs that can hold a channeler's weight and can potentially be used for powered flight. Again, discussed earlier in the thread.

 

That depends on how well you know the technology behind those machines. If they understood and were able to utilize say, anti-gravity measures, those could be simulated with the Power for personal lift or reality itself altered enough to counteract gravity.

 

Gravity manipulations with the Power should be possible, Rand's explanation of folding the pattern(space) to Travel matches that of Einstein-Rosen Bridges.

 

Maybe--I mean the Power-fairies would have helped so it's certainly possible.

Just one of many examples of your non-constructive inputs to this thread so far. Rather than acknowledge or debate my interpretation of canon, you're trying to be facetious and failing (imo). No, let's instead debate my use of that f word. ::)

 

You do know jetpacks don't work--the control of inertia required to achieve flight and still leave their passenger alive makes them utterl useless. Oh yes they are a fine gimic, they can lift you maybe twenty feet off the ground at a slow and cautious rise, and then land you again (often with extreme injury).

 

But military use? No. This brings us back to my comment--even were flight possible, which we don't know it to be, it would be impractical, useless and potentially fatal.

I see them working just fine. They do fly don't they? If the model works, flight is possible and I haven't seen you contradicting that. Regarding complexity, jetpacks are mostly limited by fuel & mechanical stability, neither really issues with the Power. The safety issues mostly come from control failures(technical flaw or pilot error) and channelers with their deftness of weaving and superhuman reflexes and spatial awareness shouldn't be compromised.

 

One, you're wrong. We know feelings about either the origin point or the destination point are nessasary.

 

Two, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Create a similarity? Do you really think that involves an understanding of the exact forces in play? No, they do something very complex by instinct. They have no knowledge of what they are doing, just a feeling of how it should be done.

 

That would not work with flight.

For One, we don't know that, canon mentions spending time to 'know' your ground before you Travel. Where do 'feelings' come in?

 

You'll have to explain why instinct can not be used for flight. Some of the forces at play in altering reality are what would be required in flight, except more complex in the former case. Couldn't a channeler with unthinking understanding, create a set of weaves that plots or creates a predetermined course through the air from the safety of the ground, intuitively feel out the required thrust values at comfortable speeds and end with a safe landing? If as you suggest knowledge is not required, only 'feelings'.

 

The simple answer is because it does. We know this from the books.

Care to state an example? Other than the segue quoted below?

 

The longer answer is that things like stormweaving and so forth do not involve extreme stress--we know flight would require a rocket-like effect, which to be anything big would involve extreme speed, g-forces, heat and cold and so forth. Why? Becuase its impossible to simply lift oneself with the power.

Whenever we discuss complexity of controls, you divert to stresses and vice versa.

 

I asked how those forces were dealt with, unthinking understanding or via conscious control of the various factors. You claim to have a knowledge of the uses of the power superior to those who use and mention it in canon, so I think it's time you find a position and stick to it.

 

Yes, these things are possible--but doing them would be such a stressful and dramatic thing that it would most probably be fatal, and certainly be useless. Thats why they created sho-wings and hoverflies and the like. A metal box which doesn't leave you out in the elements of what you are doing.

 

Really? Canon says citizens used sho-wings for transport. Aes Sedai Traveled and da'shain like Charn did too with Aes Sedai help. If they had to fly, I doubt they'd want to rely on machines.

 

There is a difference between ad hominem and not knowing what the hell your talking about. You asked me 'So you think creating a low or zero inertia environment with the aid of inter-dimensional travel and the altering of reality that's already been established in canon is not viable?' To which the only answer was, and is--you don't know what you were talking about.

You didn't disprove or counter the argument, you dismissed the person making it by citing an alleged characteristic(sophism) about him; that you backed it up with a fallacious example(cosmology) is largely irrelevant to the definition. It's classic ad hominem. You could have said the argument was flawed or nonsensical or this part doesn't make sense, rather than make presumptions about my understanding of it. Perhaps that was the only way you knew how to respond but it is what it is. And you're still doing it.

 

Quoting wikipedia here; "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

 

Before it goes any further, just remember that I asked nicely that it stop. You know, had you actually been willing to discuss that theoretical scenario you'd have found quite a few holes to pick at within the basis of canon, backed up by examples. I hoped that by discussing them and me getting a better idea of your esteemed understanding of the power, we could come to some kind of mutually acceptable model that might work within the framework of canon. What I meant earlier by 'constructive discussion'.

 

You are right, but only on sundays and public holidays, but not at any other time.

Sigh.

 

 

[Luckers]

Then why rewrite it as something else? The impossibility of lifting oneself with the power has been well established early on in this thread. Those of us attempting to conduct a constructive discussion here have been trying to work around this to establish some understanding of flight.

 

The answer is in your comment--you are trying to work around it. This is not constructive, it's a glammer. A story, in effect.

 

The only viable method of flight using the power is to create a rocket like effect and glide. For a single individual this may well be impossible--but even if it is not it would still be impractical and useless.

 

Quote

That doesn't contradict Siuan, it reinforces that she knew what she was talking about. It does not contradict flight as you'd said earlier(which you seem to like having repeated to you). On the contrary, it sheds light on support constructs that can hold a channeler's weight and can potentially be used for powered flight. Again, discussed earlier in the thread.

 

You really don't see how you contridicted yourself in that do you. You suggest that something stated to have a height limitation sheds light on methods that could be used for flight. Those rules are stated to be inviolate, yet you think they support potential flight? Flight which Asmodean surely must have known of. Flight which one would think would have been mentioned in the discussion of these platforms of air rules.

 

Quote

Quote

That depends on how well you know the technology behind those machines. If they understood and were able to utilize say, anti-gravity measures, those could be simulated with the Power for personal lift or reality itself altered enough to counteract gravity.

 

Gravity manipulations with the Power should be possible, Rand's explanation of folding the pattern(space) to Travel matches that of Einstein-Rosen Bridges.

 

Maybe--I mean the Power-fairies would have helped so it's certainly possible.

 

 

Just one of many examples of your non-constructive inputs to this thread so far. Rather than acknowledge or debate my interpretation of canon, you're trying to be facetious and failing (imo). No, let's instead debate my use of that f word.

 

Sorry, let me be more clear. You made that all up and its utterly irrelevant and therefore impossible to respond to. Does this help you?

 

I am genuinely sorry for being snippy, however.

 

 

Quote

You do know jetpacks don't work--the control of inertia required to achieve flight and still leave their passenger alive makes them utterl useless. Oh yes they are a fine gimic, they can lift you maybe twenty feet off the ground at a slow and cautious rise, and then land you again (often with extreme injury).

 

But military use? No. This brings us back to my comment--even were flight possible, which we don't know it to be, it would be impractical, useless and potentially fatal.

 

 

I see them working just fine. They do fly don't they? If the model works, flight is possible and I haven't seen you contradicting that. Regarding complexity, jetpacks are mostly limited by fuel & mechanical stability, neither really issues with the Power. The safety issues mostly come from control failures(technical flaw or pilot error) and channelers with their deftness of weaving and superhuman reflexes and spatial awareness shouldn't be compromised.

 

One, yes they fly--indeed my theory, which i've always held and clearly stated, is that rocket-like flight would be possible for a channeler so why your looking for me to contradict that is a bit strange.

 

That being said you don't seem to understand how rockets work. They burn propellent to create thrust involving the decretion of mass--which is what results in flight--the law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction.

 

The limits of rockets do come from fuel and mechanical stability, but there absense does not result in each flight for power users--the power might create the thrust nessasary, but keep in mind that machines are much more stable than human minds in controlling things, which brings us to...

 

Two. Channelers do not have superhuman reflexes. They are more aware of their enviroment but that gifts them with not special mental acuity. Flight in this manner would require specific control of so many forces--and protection from so many others--that yes it is next to impossible, and even if it weren't it would be impractical and useless.

 

For One, we don't know that, canon mentions spending time to 'know' your ground before you Travel. Where do 'feelings' come in?

 

You do know the definition of 'feeling', right? To use ones senses to know something. Hmm.

 

You'll have to explain why instinct can not be used for flight. Some of the forces at play in altering reality are what would be required in flight, except more complex in the former case. Couldn't a channeler with unthinking understanding, create a set of weaves that plots or creates a predetermined course through the air from the safety of the ground, intuitively feel out the required thrust values at comfortable speeds and end with a safe landing? If as you suggest knowledge is not required, only 'feelings'.

 

The difference is that with Travel it involves a single instant of instinct, of 'feeling'. After that the gateway snaps into place, and the channeler has no control over that. Flight would require specific ongoing adjustments at every stage of the flight to adapt to the gravity, the wind, the cold, the speed. And such could not be guessed or 'felt' from the ground.

 

And none of the forces involved in traveling are actually involved in travelling. The channelers have no knowledge of the specific forces involved, just a rough feeling of what they were trying to achieve, after which the gateway snaps into place which has little to do with the Power.

 

Quote

The simple answer is because it does. We know this from the books.

 

Care to state an example? Other than the segue quoted below?

 

Alright, Nynaeve's form of healing, which unlike the original reacts to the specific reality of the injury. Or how about Semirhages methods of torture. Adapated specifically for the circumstance, and if not carefully managed leading to death.

 

The analogy is there if you wish to look for it.

 

Quote

The longer answer is that things like stormweaving and so forth do not involve extreme stress--we know flight would require a rocket-like effect, which to be anything big would involve extreme speed, g-forces, heat and cold and so forth. Why? Becuase its impossible to simply lift oneself with the power.

Whenever we discuss complexity of controls, you divert to stresses and vice versa.

 

I asked how those forces were dealt with, unthinking understanding or via conscious control of the various factors. You claim to have a knowledge of the uses of the power superior to those who use and mention it in canon, so I think it's time you find a position and stick to it.

 

I think i've been fairly clear about my position, and to be clear i said i know more than Siuan about what can and cannot be done with channeling which is true--at least at the time she made that comment.

 

Quote

Yes, these things are possible--but doing them would be such a stressful and dramatic thing that it would most probably be fatal, and certainly be useless. Thats why they created sho-wings and hoverflies and the like. A metal box which doesn't leave you out in the elements of what you are doing.

 

Really? Canon says citizens used sho-wings for transport. Aes Sedai Traveled and da'shain like Charn did too with Aes Sedai help. If they had to fly, I doubt they'd want to rely on machines.

 

Your doubt is not a viable point.

 

Quote

There is a difference between ad hominem and not knowing what the hell your talking about. You asked me 'So you think creating a low or zero inertia environment with the aid of inter-dimensional travel and the altering of reality that's already been established in canon is not viable?' To which the only answer was, and is--you don't know what you were talking about.

 

 

You didn't disprove or counter the argument, you dismissed the person making it by citing an alleged characteristic(sophism) about him; that you backed it up with a fallacious example(cosmology) is largely irrelevant to the definition. It's classic ad hominem. You could have said the argument was flawed or nonsensical or this part doesn't make sense, rather than make presumptions about my understanding of it. Perhaps that was the only way you knew how to respond but it is what it is. And you're still doing it.

 

Quoting wikipedia here; "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

 

Before it goes any further, just remember that I asked nicely that it stop. You know, had you actually been willing to discuss that theoretical scenario you'd have found quite a few holes to pick at within the basis of canon, backed up by examples. I hoped that by discussing them and me getting a better idea of your esteemed understanding of the power, we could come to some kind of mutually acceptable model that might work within the framework of canon. What I meant earlier by 'constructive discussion'.

 

Out of curiosity how is me saying your argument was nonsensical any different to me saying it was sophistic? Sophism is by its very nature nonsensical. I was just being specific in my comment.

 

But on me being ad hominem i think my original comment stands for itself. "Ad hominem is to attack someone on their method when you can't attack their argument. Say;-

 

"As a good catholic man i abhor rape".

 

"The Catholic Church supported the holocaust so clearly you DO support rape!"

 

Calling out your bulldiddy ain't ad hominem my friend, it's me saying your argument has no grapes. You used big sounding words to say nothing. Sophism."

 

As for your concept of constructive discussion--no. I've no interest in coming up with a mutual delusion to insert into the text. Just because it would not deny canon does not make it relevant or interesting.

[Mandragoran]

The answer is in your comment--you are trying to work around it. This is not constructive, it's a glammer. A story, in effect.

 

The only viable method of flight using the power is to create a rocket like effect and glide. For a single individual this may well be impossible--but even if it is not it would still be impractical and useless.

A story much like the books you mean? I wonder what you'd say if the author introduced flight into the books with a bare fraction of the explanations we're putting in here. :D

 

Did you mean a glamour? We are working off rules of canon here. Rewriting the canon as you did is subverting the facts, and that prompts me to repeat it to you.

 

You really don't see how you contridicted yourself in that do you. You suggest that something stated to have a height limitation sheds light on methods that could be used for flight. Those rules are stated to be inviolate, yet you think they support potential flight? Flight which Asmodean surely must have known of. Flight which one would think would have been mentioned in the discussion of these platforms of air rules.

There is no contradiction. You are comparing the height limitations of bridges to flying. One is a construct from ground level. The other used in supporting the channeler for propulsion (through various means) to fly. Asmodean was not directly mentioned and flight was certainly not. Rand was simply referring to the rules of how far you can make or lift things with the power. Flight is a different topic.

 

Sorry, let me be more clear. You made that all up and its utterly irrelevant and therefore impossible to respond to. Does this help you?

Made it up? Rand in explaining how he travels to Egwene uses her shawl, tent-poling it with fingers to indicate 2 locations, Cairhien and Caemlyn, bringing them together saying, "I bend the pattern". That's clearly modeled on wormhole theory from general relativity which involves the folding of spacetime to do just that. Explanations for gravity also use cloth as a 2D representation of space-time to demonstrate its effects.

 

Irrelevant? Folding the fabric of space to bring 2 locations together as gravity does can have no bearing on flight? Rand doesn't need to generate a singularity or anywhere near those forces to propel himself. If he can create a weave to curve space and pull himself towards it just enough to counteract gravity, he'll have achieved flight. All he'd have to do is maintain the weave for the force it generates and reposition it for direction. Maybe have 2 weaves for stability, one for lift other for direction.

 

One, yes they fly--indeed my theory, which i've always held and clearly stated, is that rocket-like flight would be possible for a channeler so why your looking for me to contradict that is a bit strange.

 

That being said you don't seem to understand how rockets work. They burn propellent to create thrust involving the decretion of mass--which is what results in flight--the law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction.

 

The limits of rockets do come from fuel and mechanical stability, but there absense does not result in each flight for power users--the power might create the thrust nessasary, but keep in mind that machines are much more stable than human minds in controlling things, which brings us to...

So rocket-like flight is possible, fuel isn't an issue. Check. As I've said before, the power changes things in many regards, being more of a natural force than a mechanical one. Stability wise in the context of the human mind, it would be like comparing aircraft to birds. Continued into the next point-

 

Two. Channelers do not have superhuman reflexes. They are more aware of their enviroment but that gifts them with not special mental acuity. Flight in this manner would require specific control of so many forces--and protection from so many others--that yes it is next to impossible, and even if it weren't it would be impractical and useless.

Being more aware of their environment gives them the ability to react more quickly. Stimuli unnoticed by the average person are discovered early and with the aid of the power can be responded to in the blink of an eye. I would even suggest that those responses could match or exceed that of a bird's.

 

There are varied protections available by use of the power and more that could be tailor-made for flight, which is aside from the support structures that could be used to protect oneself.

 

You do know the definition of 'feeling', right? To use ones senses to know something. Hmm.

Hmm? Which part?

 

Feeling: 1 a  (1): the one of the basic physical senses of which the skin contains the chief end organs and of which the sensations of touch and temperature are characteristic : touch  (2): a sensation experienced through this sense b: generalized bodily consciousness or sensation c: appreciative or responsive awareness or recognition2 a: an emotional state or reaction <a kindly feeling toward the boy> bplural : susceptibility to impression : sensitivity <the remark hurt her feelings>3 a: the undifferentiated background of one's awareness considered apart from any identifiable sensation, perception, or thought b: the overall quality of one's awareness c: conscious recognition : sense4 a: often unreasoned opinion or belief : sentiment b: presentiment5: capacity to respond emotionally especially with the higher emotions6: the character ascribed to something : atmosphere7 a: the quality of a work of art that conveys the emotion of the artist b: sympathetic aesthetic response

 

You'll have to explain why instinct can not be used for flight. Some of the forces at play in altering reality are what would be required in flight, except more complex in the former case. Couldn't a channeler with unthinking understanding, create a set of weaves that plots or creates a predetermined course through the air from the safety of the ground, intuitively feel out the required thrust values at comfortable speeds and end with a safe landing? If as you suggest knowledge is not required, only 'feelings'.

 

The difference is that with Travel it involves a single instant of instinct, of 'feeling'. After that the gateway snaps into place, and the channeler has no control over that. Flight would require specific ongoing adjustments at every stage of the flight to adapt to the gravity, the wind, the cold, the speed. And such could not be guessed or 'felt' from the ground.

Actually, flight is largely managed by the aircraft. Most current aircraft practically fly themselves, even on take-offs and landings. The calculations to deal with the forces involved are incorporated into the thrusters, aerodynamic structure and wing design in the manufacturing stages. In terms of rockets and cruise missiles, those parameters are handled much the same. These would be represented by our basic weaves. Specific forces from wind conditions, etc. are managed in the pre-flight process. This would be the channeler's ground checks in case the weaves need altering for weather conditions or such. Once in flight, specific ongoing adjustments outside the purview of aircraft design are usually handled by the pilot over a cup of coffee, even on smaller aircraft without autopilot. I suggested short jumps to avoid any drastic change in conditions but I'm still not convinced a channeler could not perceive and react to them in real-time. Are you suggesting that many instances of instinct, of 'feeling' would be particularly draining on the channeler when the results are so instantaneous? We've seen the asha'man continuously weave deathgates with no problems. Prolonged holding of the power at high quantities can be tiring for some who aren't particularly strong but even those time frames extend to the length of an entire day.

 

Alright, Nynaeve's form of healing, which unlike the original reacts to the specific reality of the injury. Or how about Semirhages methods of torture. Adapated specifically for the circumstance, and if not carefully managed leading to death.

It was intuitive understanding. It only required her to constantly adjust her manipulations on her first try, when making the discovery. Healing Logain wasn't done through conscious knowledge. She felt a hole and tried to fill it with what felt right. 'Going through the motions' is how she describes it. She was busy thinking about other things and adding the flows without thought. With Siuan it was only a problem of remembering what she had done.

 

Semirhage does locate the relevant centers of the brain in the beginning but then she applies the weave, however delicately to trigger pain or pleasure and waits for it to work. There was no fiddling with neurons after that, no switching of impulses. She even sets it and leaves, coming back to check. Not exactly brain surgery.

 

The only specificity involved in both examples is in locating the problems, because they were not clearly apparent. There wasn't much involved in dealing with them.

 

The longer answer is that things like stormweaving and so forth do not involve extreme stress--we know flight would require a rocket-like effect, which to be anything big would involve extreme speed, g-forces, heat and cold and so forth.

I think i've been fairly clear about my position, and to be clear i said i know more than Siuan about what can and cannot be done with channeling which is true--at least at the time she made that comment.

Not really, no.

 

How does storm management work, unthinking understanding or via conscious control of the various factors?

 

Really? Canon says citizens used sho-wings for transport. Aes Sedai Traveled and da'shain like Charn did too with Aes Sedai help. If they had to fly, I doubt they'd want to rely on machines.

 

Your doubt is not a viable point.

Yet it's a more reasonable doubt than presuming Siuan wrong about Aes Sedai flying because they had sho-wings, when canon suggests they didn't use them.

 

You didn't disprove or counter the argument, you dismissed the person making it by citing an alleged characteristic(sophism) about him; that you backed it up with a fallacious example(cosmology) is largely irrelevant to the definition. It's classic ad hominem. You could have said the argument was flawed or nonsensical or this part doesn't make sense, rather than make presumptions about my understanding of it. Perhaps that was the only way you knew how to respond but it is what it is. And you're still doing it.

 

Quoting wikipedia here; "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim."

 

Before it goes any further, just remember that I asked nicely that it stop. You know, had you actually been willing to discuss that theoretical scenario you'd have found quite a few holes to pick at within the basis of canon, backed up by examples. I hoped that by discussing them and me getting a better idea of your esteemed understanding of the power, we could come to some kind of mutually acceptable model that might work within the framework of canon. What I meant earlier by 'constructive discussion'.

Out of curiosity how is me saying your argument was nonsensical any different to me saying it was sophistic? Sophism is by its very nature nonsensical. I was just being specific in my comment.

 

But on me being ad hominem i think my original comment stands for itself. "Ad hominem is to attack someone on their method when you can't attack their argument. Say;-

 

"As a good catholic man i abhor rape".

 

"The Catholic Church supported the holocaust so clearly you DO support rape!"

 

Calling out your bulldiddy ain't ad hominem my friend, it's me saying your argument has no grapes. You used big sounding words to say nothing. Sophism."

The difference is that one directly affects the argument, the other was a comment on the characteristic of the arguer. Especially when you cited a previous history of my doing it, implying it applied to the current argument too.

 

In terms of your definition, you did attack my method of "using big words" rather than deal with the argument directly.

 

 

[The Doctor]

RAW needs to step in and settle this.

[Mandragoran]

RAW needs to step in and settle this.

I can stop if it's felt this is getting out of hand.

 

 

[The Doctor]

I was just making a joke, I'll eventually learn to keep my dry humor to myself.

[Liam_1993]

:)just a crazy idea here but what if you could create massive 'air stillts' (or sumthing) and walk about on them?  ???    another idea what if you got a very powerful wind behind you and a airodynamic slab a air underneath you to glide about?      or kept pushing at the air underneath you with more air(somehow)?        Or just maybe the aes sedai flying about metioned in the age of legends refers to that black place which rand often goes into by opening a portal and then glideing on a silver platform?  :o