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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Sammeal


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My opinion is that RJ said hes toast not because he cant be brought back but because he wouldnt be. Too late in the series, the series has already grown enough without another recycled Forsaken to bring into it. Nah, Cyndane, Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar came back because they have tasks to perform.

 

Sammael served his purpose, job done.

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Also if i remember correctly Sammael went against the Dark One's orders to "let the lord of chaos rule" by trying to kill Rand. Which is why Moridin stepped in and helped Rand (and then subsequently crossed balefire). The Dark One wouldn't recycle someone unless: 1 they were needed, 2 they died carrying out his orders, or at least not going against them.

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Some of Sammy's chaos is still seen throughout Randland.

 

The Shaido.

 

And Sammy didn't try to kill Rand.  He was the only forsaken who saw Rand as rand and not LTT.  The others focused Rand to him.  And while Rand was concentrating on Sammy the others plotted behind the scenes in other areas.

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The order "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", that could be paraphrased as "Let chaos spread" and/or as "Spread chaos".  It does not necessarily mean "Do not kill Rand".

The Forsaken return because they were needed?  That is too vague. Almost any kind of situation might be considered a need.

because they died carrying out his orders or at least not going against them?  That is debatable.  Lanfear (who returned as Cyndane) in a sense rebelled against the Dark One; rebellion might be considered worse than going against orders.

 

To me it is not too late for the Dark One to resurrect anyone; and as long as the Dark One has influence over the world, no time would be too late.

Though I agree that Sammael can be resurrected since balefire was not the means.

 

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The order "Let the Lord of Chaos rule", that could be paraphrased as "Let chaos spread" and/or as "Spread chaos".  It does not necessarily mean "Do not kill Rand".

The Forsaken return because they were needed?  That is too vague. Almost any kind of situation might be considered a need.

because they died carrying out his orders or at least not going against them?  That is debatable.  Lanfear (who returned as Cyndane) in a sense rebelled against the Dark One; rebellion might be considered worse than going against orders.

 

To me it is not too late for the Dark One to resurrect anyone; and as long as the Dark One has influence over the world, no time would be too late.

Though I agree that Sammael can be resurrected since balefire was not the means.

 

 

The Dont Kill Rand order was independent of the Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

 

The Forsaken were recycled because the Dark One needs them; they are the ones who run the show for him; Ishamael and Lanfear were obvious choices for their sheer power and usefulness, Aginor and Balthamel, I believe, because they died without failing in any way. The rest can rot for their mistakes

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RJ said the DO couldn't bring back anyone whenever he wished.

 

He has to intercept the soul as it passing by him or something to that effect.  He can't get balefired people because they died by they died so by the time he knows there dead they have passed by.

 

He even says he can't bring back people from balefire in LoC.

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Sammael wasnt balefired, he was killed by Mashadar. And since we dont know exactly what happens to someone when Mashadar kills them, we cant say whether or not the Dark One could bring him back. I doubt very much that he'll come back even if it turned out he could, unless there is something very specific RJ was planning involving him right at the end. Doubtful, of course. Another thing to remember is that the Dark One doesnt know everything; he thought Asmodean went over to Rand of his own accord; he could very well have thought Sammael did try killing Rand, especially if thats what Moridin wanted the Dark One to think

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Given that Mashadar was created from the souls of the inhabitants of Aridhol it's likely that it consumes souls, like Machin Shin, however that is not certain. What is though is that the time it took for the Dark One to recycle all the others is unlikely to have passed before Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Hence even if it is possible, its unlikely.

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I was under the impression the "Let The Lord of Chaos Rule" order was the Don't Kill Rand order. "The Lord of Chaos" is Rand right?? So letting the "Lord of Chaos Rule" is different from "Letting Chaos Spread" Also when that order was given to Demandred wasn't it in response to Demandred asking about what to do with Rand (I'm not sure about this)?

 

And how did Sammael not attack Rand? Sure Rand attacked him but then he fled to Shadar Logoth, were he had traps set, and it was obvious he had planned it out. He could have travelled to Shadar Logoth, then travelled out of Shadar Logoth maybe unweaving his gateway so Rand couldn't see where he went if that was even necessary. The traps he set probably would have distracted Rand enough for him to get away. The main point I was trying to make is that Sammael stayed and tried to kill Rand which would have angered the Dark One.

 

Also i said he wasn't needed, which makes sense to me. Sure he could be put to use, but the Dark One didn't have a need like the others. Ishammeal and Lanfear were both very powerful so it makes sense that they would be brought back. The Dark one had a very clear need for Moridin and Cyndene (sp?) we have yet to see, although I am sure there is one. Aginor and Balthamel (sp?) were certainly needed, one to be a spy against the Rebel Aes Sedai, and one to be a spy against Rand.

 

Also I don't think Lanfear was going against the Dark Ones orders too badly. True she was certainly plotted for herself, but the Dark One doesn't know that it was her who gave Asmodean to Rand as a teacher. Her goal was to make Rand Powerful and the take him as her lover/pet. This would have essentially turned him to the shadow and the Dark One would have been pleased. Lanfear might not have been pleased when he was raised Nea'Blis over her but there would be nothing she could do about it once Rand was turned evil.

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No, the Lord of Chaos is not Rand, it is just chaos in general. Thats why Sammael said to Graendal that small increases in chaos were as important as large increases when he was manipulating the Shaido.

 

The Dark One isnt always as well as informed as people often think when it comes to the Forsakens actions. He didnt know, for example, that Lanfear placed Asmodean in Rands control. Sammaels demise might be lied about.

 

Lanfear didnt want Rand to turn to the Shadow; she said to him they could oppose the Creator and the Dark One with the Choeden Kal

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He could have travelled to Shadar Logoth, then travelled out of Shadar Logoth maybe unweaving his gateway so Rand couldn't see where he went if that was even necessary.

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhh

 

No! No unweaving. No one at AoL dared to unweave a weave. Moridin got really scared when Aviendha did it at Ebou Dar. They knew it was possible, but they thought it was crazy and extremely dangerous. So no. No unweaving!!!!

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