it's a streatch but robert jordans world follows alot of nazi facist beliefs

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

Let's NOT look at the Catholic Church. We don't need to go in to how the Church is either directly or indirectly responsible for many millions more deaths than Hitler was.

Easy there tiger...

 

Luckers is, if I'm right, merely highlighting the fact that Catholic Church can be said to have ... ummm.... "lifted" aspects of other religions.

 

If you want more of a response, please feel free to visit the Debates and Discussions Board. But be warned *looks over his shoulder before continuing* that's where CUBAREY lives... :'(

 

--

 

Back on track(ish)... there's a Q&A session with RJ somewhere on DM in which RJ likens the Shadow's failure to the Nazi failure to win WW2. He cites disorganization, infighting and ego as the major factors.

 

- I know, that's nothing to do with ideology, but there it is. It's the best I can do.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I'm going to have to say that Hawkwing was more like Napoleon Bonaparte than Hitler, I don't know, it's hard to point to specifics, but Hawkwing and his empire seem more reminiscent of Napoleon and his empire than Hitler.

I'll agree with you on that.  For example look at Napoleon's failed invasion of Russia: Hawkwing had a very similar failed campaign against the Aiel.  Also, Napoleon's dealings with the Pope parallel Hawkwing's dealings with Aes Sedai.

[luftstark]

I'm going to have to say that Hawkwing was more like Napoleon Bonaparte than Hitler, I don't know, it's hard to point to specifics, but Hawkwing and his empire seem more reminiscent of Napoleon and his empire than Hitler.

I'll agree with you on that.  For example look at Napoleon's failed invasion of Russia: Hawkwing had a very similar failed campaign against the Aiel.  Also, Napoleon's dealings with the Pope parallel Hawkwing's dealings with Aes Sedai.

 

I don't know.. it may be just me but Hawking campaing seens to me much more like Alexander the Great then Napoleon's. I always found that Hawking's motives were noble until Ishamael  his mind to turn on the AS =P

 

Bakc in the topic:  Hawking and Hittler both used the Romam Eagle as a symbol, but it probably adds nothing to this discussion =P

 

Edit: Try to use the language of intelligent people.

[Barmacral]

To those of you waiting on the original poster to respond... looks like he was just trolling in an attempt to rile people up, don't expect him back.

[Builder]

Yeah but the biggest reason I love this forum and all it's inhabitants (in a completely friendly and non-sexual manner of course)is because even when a troll/spammer makes a thread it almost always becomes a real discussion with intelligent posts and everything, unlike the Moiranine being Demandred thread. That one was intended to be serious but it all went to the drain.

 

Back on topic!

 

I think Hawkwing was like Napoleon Bonaparte, but would that meant that he was like Napoleon because Napoleon wasn't exactly great at making the peoples he conquered happy.

[arkinia]

For real. Just look at my "I don't like Mat Cauthon" thread. It's a wonder how that happened. And I am disappointed that you don't love me in a sexual manner.

[Builder]

I never went to that thread because just the name implies another one of those threads where people talk about how they don't like this or that character.

[Rael]

If the OP was such a history buff, he would have provided his sources. As other posters have said, the Nazis incorporated a lot of different ideas into their ideology. One of them, for instance, is the swastika which is the symbol for a Buddhist Temple in Korea and I believe throughout the rest of East Asia.

[Matcauthon999]

I was correct, Hitler did set up his own religion and attempt to force the people of Germany to go to parades, meetings and that sort of thing, it was called the German Faith Movement and was not about the 'Wheel of time' it was about worship of the sun, which actually i suppose could amount to something similar the only real difference is that the sun cycles a hell of a lot quicker than the wheel i.e (it doesn't take an age for the earth to go around the sun once). Problem was that absolutely no one was interested mainly because most of these pagan beliefs had been left in the past after all that has happened to pagan worshippers and they preferred the organisation and perhaps slightly more casual nature of the catholic church at this time.

 

[Luckers]

Let's NOT look at the Catholic Church. We don't need to go in to how the Church is either directly or indirectly responsible for many millions more deaths than Hitler was. And Niezstche was a completely misunderstood genius. Anyway I'm pretty sure if the Bible had been written AFTER Hitler we could have just as valid a discussion (not that this one is valid) about how IT was parallel to Nazism, as well as basically any other historical book, religious or not.

 

I wasn't speaking of the Catholic Church's tacit support of the holocaust, or any of the other atrocities its aided, either by not opposing it or actively supporting it (slavery). I was speaking of the fact that the Catholic Church has appropriated many of its core beliefs from other religion.

 

That being said, i don't think those points in the Church's history should be left silent.

[harlequin115]

I may be taking the discussion backwards a bit, and for that I'm sorry (darn Real Life keeps me away from message boards for too long), but I just wanted to agree with the sentiment expressed above that Hawkwing's empire reminds me a bit more of Alexander's than Bonaparte's (or certainly Hitler's attempted Third Reich).  Like Alexander, Hawkwing actually conquered his entire known world, and attempted to move beyond the known borders of his time.  Like Alexander, his Empire only fell after his death, due to infighting between his successors.  Additionally, unlike Napoleon, Hawkwing was able to survive his few failures (while he was defeated in the Waste, it didn't lead to the demise of the rest of his Empire--much like Alexander's Empire continued to survive even when he was forced to back out of India).

 

OTOH, I can see how you could argue that the establishment of Hawkwing's Justice for the commoners across his Empire, and its legacy in the existing nations of Randland, is comparable to Napoleon's establishment of the Napoleonic code across much of Europe.  Yet one more reason I love this series--every time I go back, there's more to find in it....

[Mr Ares]

I don't know.. it may be just me but Hawking campaing seens to me much more like Alexander the Great then Napoleon's. I always found that Hawking's motives were noble until Ishamael  his mind to turn on the AS =P

So Alexander massacred all those people for noble reasons? I'm sure that would have made them feel so much better.

[nebraskee]

I'm the original poster and no i'm not a troll. I was being completely serious.. I was also serious about you looking it up for yourselves. Alot of you got close.. yes nazi germany did steal alot of things from other cultures.. durrrr. and yes he did set up a pagen movenment.. close...  the point of this was not to start a fight or to put my credability on the line.. I believe in finding knowledge for yourself is much more rewarding then reading the answer from the orignal poster..  so with that in mind i'm gonna drop you some hints to follow up on. * also for those of you trying to google this your gonna epic fail.

 

here are some hints to follow up on.

 

hint #1 the belief that if time is infinte then it must be a circle and loop. ( ages come and pass )

 

hint #2 the belief in individuals that set the pattern staright.. in the books they are known as tavaren. or whatever lol not gonna spell check. In history they were known as something else.. follow that lead.

 

hint #3  this hint ties in with the first hint..( for hitlers extermination of the jews and his reasoning for it. why he didn't feel bad. ) * not the aryan race supirority reason *

 

there you have it.. and to the guy asking for my sources and credeatials.. I'm a freaking college student that loves reading.  get a life and go troll starbucks and act smug and being ignorant of the world around you, you sound like one of those coffee shop revolutionaries.  here's a quote for you    you are most deff the latter.

 

a wise man knows he is foolish..

a foolish man belives he is wise.

 

 

 

 

[harlequin115]

Just because you say you're not a troll doesn't mean you aren't one.  As I said before, if you're going to make a fairly inflammatory statement, you can just tell us to 'look it up for yourself' if you want--but don't expect to be taken seriously, expect us to consider you a troll, because that's how you're behaving.  I've seen waaay too many 'internet scholars' telling others to 'look it up for themselves' when they don't have a leg to stand on--usually they're climate change deniers, or something equally aggravating.  Additionally, telling people not to google your ridiculous 'hints' just shows that you are just trying to stand here and enjoy some sort of twisted, undeserved feeling of superiority.

 

None of your 'hints' are particularly pointed towards fascist thinking in particular.  In fact, hint #3 isn't actually a hint, except you say that it ties the first hint to the extermination of the Jews, which could mean anything.  Hints #1 and #2 sound like you're referencing Hegel's Philosophy of History, which Hitler certainly read, but Hegel's FAR from being a Nazi himself....

 

My point is, vague hints and suggestions that we just go read more don't have much credibility, seeing as how I can link all of them to multiple scholars.  At least give some specifics.

 

Also, misquoting Shakespeare in an attempt to burn others by claiming they are ignorant of the world is just ironic, not something that's going to score you any points.

[Luckers]

Forgive me if i do this a little out of order.

 

there you have it.. and to the guy asking for my sources and credeatials.. I'm a freaking college student that loves reading.  get a life and go troll starbucks and act smug and being ignorant of the world around you, you sound like one of those coffee shop revolutionaries.  here's a quote for you    you are most deff the latter.

 

a wise man knows he is foolish..

a foolish man belives he is wise.

 

And a twat... well, does what you do.

 

[Gentled Ben]

I'm the original poster and no i'm not a troll...<snip> I believe in finding knowledge for yourself is much more rewarding then reading the answer from the orignal poster...<snip> so with that in mind i'm gonna drop you some hints to follow up on. <snip> and to the guy asking for my sources and credeatials...<snip> you sound like one of those coffee shop revolutionaries. 

 

Not the way to posit a theory for discussion around here. Fail Troll is fail. C'mon, Luckers; I'll buy you a latte.  :)

[Builder]

But... people lets not go into religion at all! If we start debating religion this thread would automatically go to hell. No pun intended btw.

[Luckers]

I agree, lets not go into religion at all, it leads to hell. :p

[luftstark]

I don't know.. it may be just me but Hawking campaing seens to me much more like Alexander the Great then Napoleon's. I always found that Hawking's motives were noble until Ishamael  his mind to turn on the AS =P

So Alexander massacred all those people for noble reasons? I'm sure that would have made them feel so much better.

 

Every conqueror killed ppl. Every single one of them. So if this is your criteria ... well ... there will be none left =P

 

Aside from that, the cultural revolucion that Alexander caused was quite nice... incorporating greek and oriental feats into a new culture... some sort of a global culture ^^.

 

Arthur Hawking was a conqueror... he used the chaos left in the world by a false dragon (can't recall his name) to unite the nations... some agains their will (therefore throu fighting and killing). But his goals were a unified world, under the light!!! I believe that he was not a crazy megalomaniac ... he was ta'veren and is a hero of the horn... he had goals to unite the world to fight the shadow... that's a noble goal ^^ he just happened to be... er... corrupted by ishamael =P

[Builder]

He was a victim of the Shadow, to a certain extent, but how can't he have been a target when he was probably planning on a big war against the Shadow, or maybe taking much land from the Shadow which would make it harder for them trolloc infants to be in their playground  :(        :D

[Matcauthon999]

 

And a twat... well, does what you do.

 

Best thing i've ever heard, im going to put that in my as yet empty sig. Thanks man :)

[Builder]

Wow that was an interesting quote! But how do we distinguish the fools from the wise ones? How do we know who is foolish and who is a wise person?

[Gentled Ben]

A college student who reads a lot will tell us, but we might have to research his answer for ourselves.  :-\

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

 

hint #2 the belief in individuals that set the pattern staright.. in the books they are known as tavaren. or whatever lol not gonna spell check. In history they were known as something else.. follow that lead.

 

OMG JESUS?

 

Btw, are you God or something, 'cause it seems to me you have all the right answers...Wait...Don't I get 3 questions?...shit that's one.....Are you real, or am I just insane?...that's two.....AND number three...Can I get a Grande caramel macciato half sweet 180 with an extra shot? Please and Thanks!

 

 

[Mr Ares]

I don't know.. it may be just me but Hawking campaing seens to me much more like Alexander the Great then Napoleon's. I always found that Hawking's motives were noble until Ishamael  his mind to turn on the AS =P

So Alexander massacred all those people for noble reasons? I'm sure that would have made them feel so much better.

Every conqueror killed ppl. Every single one of them. So if this is your criteria ... well ... there will be none left =P

One thing to kill people on the battlefield, another to massacre non-combatants.

 

Aside from that, the cultural revolucion that Alexander caused was quite nice... incorporating greek and oriental feats into a new culture... some sort of a global culture ^^.

Whether people wanted that new culture or not. A new culture, delivered at the point of a sword.