it's a streatch but robert jordans world follows alot of nazi facist beliefs

[nebraskee]

 

 

I am in no way supporting any hate crimes as that is wrong. but i'm a bit of a history student and I've always been amused at how the wheel of time and the whole religious mind set of the wheel of time series closely and I mean really closely resembles the nazi's religious beliefs.. even the wheel of time is a nazi facist belief.. that we are all traveling in a cirlce and certain indivduals come around in the pattern and set things right again. It is all found in historical nazi/facist Doctorine, further more I'm surprised not more people have made this connection but then again I am history lover. For those of you who love this series don't let this sway you as I am sure robert jordan was in no was a facist sypmathizer and probably only used the belief for his book cause well.. it sounds fantasy enough..

 

If anyone else care to do the research and comment back on this I'd love it.. I really wonder if i"m the first person to bring this up?

[Luckers]

You are the first person to do so--if the Wheel of Time is similar to anything its similar to the cosmology of indian religion. Though personally i find it to be described more as a kalpass, or spyral of time. Since thats the only correlation you've chosen to make thats all I can address, but none of the concepts inherent to the Nazi regime are referenced within the books, except in intentional parrelels like the organisation of the Asha'men by Taim with stormleaders and so forth.

 

Forgive me, but you don't seem to know what you are talking about. You say you are a history lover, do you have any credentials?

[RubberDucky]

Stretch seems to be an understatement here. In any case, the wheel of time is more similar to Hindu or Buddhist beliefs more than Nazi/Facist beliefs. Last I checked, Hinduism and Buddhism existed long before Nazism and Facism.

 

Besides, I thought Nazism and Facism were political ideas. How can they be really related with religion?

[Shard]

Not to mention that the Nazi regieme stole alot of concepts from other groups and used them for their own. So I don't think there really are any similarities of WoT to the Nazi regieme.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

I don't see any real parallels either.  However, I want to point out that nebraskee doesn't need "credentials" to start a discussion on the matter.  What a ridiculous notion!

[Luckers]

He referenced his historical knowledge, and asked for posters to 'do the research' before replying.

 

It does not seem out of place to ask his credentials in light of this.

[Shard]

He referenced his historical knowledge, and asked for posters to 'do the research' before replying.

 

It does not seem out of place to ask his credentials in light of this.

 

I'm not going to do his dirty work for him, if he wants to show proof, he should be the one providing it and proving it.

[Builder]

Not to mention that the Nazi regieme stole alot of concepts from other groups and used them for their own. So I don't think there really are any similarities of WoT to the Nazi regieme.

 

Wanted to say that but I guess I can just QFT.

[JenniferL]

 

 

I am in no way supporting any hate crimes as that is wrong. but i'm a bit of a history student and I've always been amused at how the wheel of time and the whole religious mind set of the wheel of time series closely and I mean really closely resembles the nazi's religious beliefs.. even the wheel of time is a nazi facist belief.. that we are all traveling in a cirlce and certain indivduals come around in the pattern and set things right again. It is all found in historical nazi/facist Doctorine, further more I'm surprised not more people have made this connection but then again I am history lover. For those of you who love this series don't let this sway you as I am sure robert jordan was in no was a facist sypmathizer and probably only used the belief for his book cause well.. it sounds fantasy enough..

 

If anyone else care to do the research and comment back on this I'd love it.. I really wonder if i"m the first person to bring this up?

 

The burden of proof is on you, buddy. I'm not doing your homework for you.

[Epic]

The idea of going around the wheel and reincarnation is the Jainist/Buddhist/Hindu idea of samsera and Hitler stole the swastika and the idea of an Aryan race from the Indians and a whole bunch of other stuff from around the world to make the Nazi party sound and look cooler

[Luzburg]

Actually I'm quite sure the Swastika was from Rome, and a lot of the ceremonial stuff had a Roman grandeur about it. The red is very much a Roman thing.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

There are similarities between Hawkwing's empire and Germany during the Nazi years: you could call both facist, both persecuted select groups (although the scale is much different), and both had passionate leaders with a great deal of charisma.  Also, both Hawkwing and Hitler's worst tactical decisions, perhaps even their downfalls, were influenced by personal issues.  Hitler was by many accounts an the verge of insanity by the end, and Hawkwing's decision to die rather than deal with Aes Sedai resonates with Hitler's state of mind, not to mention his suicide.  It's a long stretch though.

 

I don't think the swastika has a proven origin.  It appears in many early cultures across the globe, so cultural dissemination is a difficult argument to make.  Wikipedia gives some explanations, including the idea that any basket-weaving culture would naturally encounter swastikas, and the possibility that it came from ancient observations of a rotating comet's tail.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

Actually, the Swastika was around WAY before Rome, it has roots in many places around the ancient world from India to North and Central America with the Maya and Navajo. Nazism, like most religions, took things from older beliefs as their own. The difference being that RJ took things from many different religions, myths, etc and created his own world IN A BOOK. Hitler took many different things and tried to take over the world!

[harlequin115]

I don't want to close off debate here at all, because I'd be interested to hear what examples exist of any linkage between the Wheel of Time and Nazi beliefs.... I certainly can't think of any.  The idea that time is circular is, as others have already pointed out, much older than this century, and Hitler certainly was interested in certain parts of Indian culture, so he may have gotten it from there (as I suspect RJ did).  However, I would hardly call that belief in any way a central part of nazi doctrine, and it certainly has no relevance to the core of fascism in any way.  If you're going to make sensational statements suggesting that this work is similar to the core of 'nazi facist beliefs', you should probably back it up a bit more in your first post.....

 

As a fellow individual interested in history, I truly do mean I would like to hear if you do have evidence.  I've taken some courses on the rise of fascist thinkers, but I certainly am no expert.  Any additional evidence you might want to add (especially which authors you read! I could always use new suggestions) would be appreciated.

[Matcauthon999]

As a fellow individual interested in history, I truly do mean I would like to hear if you do have evidence.  I've taken some courses on the rise of fascist thinkers, but I certainly am no expert.  Any additional evidence you might want to add (especially which authors you read! I could always use new suggestions) would be appreciated.

Not sure if it was actually there but Hitler did set up a German Pagan movement or something similar it could have been a core belief in that but i believe that that was primarily about praising the sun. Can't really remember I'll have a look if you want. But you're right it definitely isn't central to the Nazi party yet it did control the entirety of Germany in the build up to the war so they did control more than simply politics as one other poster suggested.

[arkinia]

Nothing about Nazi beliefs was originally Nazi except maybe the Aryan crap (maybe even people exalted these guys before them). It's like saying Pepsi stole Coke's ideas or something.

[Shard]

Nothing about Nazi beliefs was originally Nazi except maybe the Aryan crap (maybe even people exalted these guys before them). It's like saying Pepsi stole Coke's ideas or something.

 

Actually didn't they get that from Nitzche?

[water_seeker]

Actually, the Swastika was around WAY before Rome, it has roots in many places around the ancient world from India to North and Central America with the Maya and Navajo.

 

Just to add to this, the swastika can also be found in ancient Japanese temples (at least I saw it on the History channel so it must be true  :P).

 

As for the whole Religion/Gov't idea, it was uncommon in history for a gov't to be separate from some sort of state religion.

 

The connection between tWoT and Naziism is flimsy at best.  Actually, there is a post saying that Rand, Mat, and Perrin (but not Orlando Bloom) are turning into pirates that has better proof...lol.  I jest, I jest.

[arkinia]

Actually, the Swastika was around WAY before Rome, it has roots in many places around the ancient world from India to North and Central America with the Maya and Navajo.

 

Just to add to this, the swastika can also be found in ancient Japanese temples (at least I saw it on the History channel so it must be true  :P).

 

As for the whole Religion/Gov't idea, it was uncommon in history for a gov't to be separate from some sort of state religion.

 

The connection between tWoT and Naziism is flimsy at best.  Actually, there is a post saying that Rand, Mat, and Perrin (but not Orlando Bloom) are turning into pirates that has better proof...lol.  I jest, I jest.

No really. That is better proof. :P

[JenniferL]

I'm still waiting for the original poster of this topic to provide some sources. I don't see a point in this thread continuing without that.

[zanotam]

There are similarities between Hawkwing's empire and Germany during the Nazi years: you could call both facist, both persecuted select groups (although the scale is much different), and both had passionate leaders with a great deal of charisma.  Also, both Hawkwing and Hitler's worst tactical decisions, perhaps even their downfalls, were influenced by personal issues.  Hitler was by many accounts an the verge of insanity by the end, and Hawkwing's decision to die rather than deal with Aes Sedai resonates with Hitler's state of mind, not to mention his suicide.  It's a long stretch though.

I'm going to have to say that Hawkwing was more like Napoleon Bonaparte than Hitler, I don't know, it's hard to point to specifics, but Hawkwing and his empire seem more reminiscent of Napoleon and his empire than Hitler.

[water_seeker]

I'm still waiting for the original poster of this topic to provide some sources. I don't see a point in this thread continuing without that.

 

I was feeling the same way when I posted what I posted...

[vainebekonnes]

Okay, similarities between Nazi beliefs and Robert Jordan....

 

Nazi's believed in taking a bunch of stuff from other sources to make their political party seem cool and to help him take over the world.

 

Robert Jordan believed in taking a bunch of stuff from other sources, making them his own in an effort to better make a world for his books.

 

Okay, I'm tapped after that.  Anyone else got anything other than the Ashaman?

[Luckers]

You just described every fantasy writer out there... or did you think 'dragons' were an entirely original concept.

 

For that matter the Nazi's were not the only ones to draw from other sources (poor Niezstche), nor even the worst, just look at the Catholic Church.

[TheGreyishGrayONE]

Let's NOT look at the Catholic Church. We don't need to go in to how the Church is either directly or indirectly responsible for many millions more deaths than Hitler was. And Niezstche was a completely misunderstood genius. Anyway I'm pretty sure if the Bible had been written AFTER Hitler we could have just as valid a discussion (not that this one is valid) about how IT was parallel to Nazism, as well as basically any other historical book, religious or not.