DO a moron?

[thatsnotgood]

Any one else agree? He's supposed to be this cat that doesn't let any of his followers ever fail.  But his top generals keep failing again and again.  You got their first failure when they lost the war of the shadow. I mean almost all of them now have been killed by Rand or his friends, but they keep getting reincarnated.  Just not that bright.

[Chance]

Agree. His tactics, whatever they may be, just don't work. As is/was mentioned in other posts/threads, this aspect of the "strongest shall survive" won't work, and never will. It's the old Napoleon issue of "divide and conquer". If he would just pool his troops. My goodness, he can keep them working, dead or not. The world would be in shadow by now. Rand is the key. It's like cutting the head off of a snake; take out the leader and the others will fail. It's very similar to killing a fade with the attached/bonded trollics. At times, I think, he just enjoys the game, and everyone's a pawn. From the EOTW, the creator won't step up to the plate, but use the dragon. What would happen, if the world went all shadow? What would he do for fun? I'm not sure he wants to win, just keep the war going.

[thatsnotgood]

 

 

1. The Dark One's true motives, and

 

 

 

Pretty sure we know what DO's true intentions are.  Read book one. Or at least the very end of your post.

 

2. Precisely how he is planning to achieve them,

 

we can't really assess how well he is doing.

 

Yes we can.  Just a few off the top of my head.  By changing the seasons.  Having his followers cause havoc.  Unraveling the Pattern.  As to assessing these... Well you have the seasons back to normal thanks to Elayne and Nen..  You have world being in chaos. Then you have the pattern unraveling pretty evident in Knife of Dreams.

 

[Chance]

My goodness, he can keep them working, dead or not.

 

To be fair, recycling isn't quite that simple.

 

I agree. But he can do it, and that is key. How does it affect the DO to recycle a soul?

[42Bonzo88]

     Maybe he is a moron... but when you are an all powerful moron that has 1. millions and millions of things to throw at the opposing force, 2. A bunch of idiots who believe you when you promise them immortality, power etc. to join your group, 3. your goal in life (or death) is just to spread as much chaos as possible. Yeah, he could easily be a moron. We have had plenty of them throughout history. :)

[Raistlin]

I could be wrong, but I don't think we have seen any of the dark ones true plans. I wonder if the only real glimpes of what is going on is from when Ishy was crazy. I doubt any of the forsaken are truly in the loop about what is going on with the dark one. I also thing Rand intends to start the last battle. There was something in KoD that made me think of it last week when I finished my last read through.

[Muad Cheade]

The first rule of war is to never underestimate your enemy. The Shadow is clearly winning the war and the Dark One is barely free. Imagine what he could do if more seals were broken?

[Titan Orion]

The Dark Ones plans are good, he just lets other things, like his amusements, ruin it all.

 

His plan is good. He plans to infect every army, civilization and organization with Darkfriends. Come the day when Rand depends on it all, all the Darkfriends spring out and wreak havoc, forcing Rand to look at his own assets rather than concentrate on defeating the enemy. If it works, Rand cannot use most of his weapons, will be paranoid about who is loyal, and will most likely struggle with sorting his own assets as well as defeating the enemy. So far its a good plan. But then the Dark Ones oddities become apparant; he encourages his minions to compete, on such a level that they will go out of their way to hinder the others; this means his highest minions, the decision makers, are as often working against each other as they are working against Rand. So, even though for a while it did look like teh Shadow is winning, I myself believe the Light have really begun to shape up, big time, and its pulling off big time.

 

If he kept the "infiltrate everything" plan but didnt encourage the Forsaken to bicker and squabble there would have been no story, the Shadow would have won from the start.

[luftstark]

I do think that the Great Lord (ops again) is just recicling the FS and using them to divert Rand from the real fight. Maybe he is gettin' something ready ... maybe de DO plans does not include the FS livin' throu the Last Battle. He just need them to make Rand busy while he gets ready to break hell loose.

 

We know that the DO is not ready to break free... it was said that he did not want to break free before he was ready.

 

I believe that Rand will break the remaning seals and set the DO free before he is ready. It's the only way Rand will get a lead in TG. (I always thought that on that scene when Taim gives Rand the Seal and he tries to Break it, it was 'cause he know, or LTT knew, that the seals need to go in order to heal the bore)

 

The DO is cleaver... no one knows how he will break the wheel... no one! He never stroke his final blow in the AoL and i guess it has nothing to do with conquering nations.. he was just buying time to siege and break the wheel and unravel the pattern... it has nothing to do with ppl fighting on the fields ...

[Perrin 187]

Don't forget the entire Seacnhen continent is in chaos as is a large portion of Randland. The Black Tower has been inflitrated by large amounts of DFs, and the white tower is divided and has Messana lurking about. He has Half of the entire Borderland army in Andor and 13 possible Black ajah with them. Successfully manipulated the Shadio and there is something strange about Murandy and Graendal is running Arad Domani, large portion of Sea folk are dead. Who knows what is happening in in Shara and so forth.

 

He is very smart. Just have to think about it. You thinking he is a moron is what he wants and what RJ wants you to think.

[mb]

About the Dark One supposed to not allow his followers to fail; that is debatable.

A failure in one area could result in a victory later on, regardless of the failure being small or big.

 

About the Dark One's plans; his order in Lord of Chaos could be paraphrased in two words: "Spread chaos."

If the chaos becomes complete, there would be a distraction that would result in the enemy's defeat.

 

[Muad Cheade]

Don't forget the entire Seacnhen continent is in chaos as is a large portion of Randland. The Black Tower has been inflitrated by large amounts of DFs, and the white tower is divided and has Messana lurking about. He has Half of the entire Borderland army in Andor and 13 possible Black ajah with them. Successfully manipulated the Shadio and there is something strange about Murandy and Graendal is running Arad Domani, large portion of Sea folk are dead. Who knows what is happening in in Shara and so forth.

 

He is very smart. Just have to think about it. You thinking he is a moron is what he wants and what RJ wants you to think.

 

 

About the Dark One supposed to not allow his followers to fail; that is debatable.

A failure in one area could result in a victory later on, regardless of the failure being small or big.

 

About the Dark One's plans; his order in Lord of Chaos could be paraphrased in two words: "Spread chaos."

If the chaos becomes complete, there would be a distraction that would result in the enemy's defeat.

 

 

I agree with both of you. If the Seanchan continent were still untied underneath the Empress (may she live forever), Rand could possibly get reinforcements from them. After all, there's no way for Shadowspawn to get there: they're afraid of water, and can't pass through gateways. The Empress could send the majority of her forces to help. Through Semihrage killing the royal family, the Dark One removed a powerful ally from Rand.

 

Shara is also incapaciated from helping Rand as there is a civil war going on.

 

The Dark One told his followers to spread chaos. Even though many of the Forsaken have died, they still spread large amounts of chaos. Sammael lost his life to Rand but look what he did with the Shaido and a few gateways. They devestated Altara, Arad Doman, Illian and Gheldean and made people mistrust Rand since he does have Aiel following him.

 

If the world is in chaos, they can't unite behind the Dragon Banner. The Shadow is winning the war and the Dark One is far from being moronic. Evil never is.

[Durinax]

the DO doesnt punish all failures, he just punishes major failures like Moghedien getting captured, lanfear/cydane betrayal

[Mr Ares]

At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning.  There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win.  All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished.  The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=22

Anyone still think Shai'tan's a moron?

[arkinia]

I think his followers aren't supposed to carry out his wishes, he is just using them to carry out his wishes. He does want Rand to live to the Last Battle. I don't think we know enough yet to know anything for sure.

[zanotam]

The DO's followers are always the real threat, and in the case of ishamael/ba'alzamon/moridin we have someone who is dangerously capable of seeing the future (quite literally as shown in the prologue to TGH) and we only know about some of the DO's forces, and a lot of them still remain mysterious, if not completely unknown, so don't count him out quite yet. I do have to agree though, the DO is stupid.

 

 

 

I'm not an idiot though, at this point it's obvious that the Light is about to be hit hard and fast, tidings shall be turned.

[zanotam]

In TGH prologue, Ishamael shows some serious knowledge of at least the immediate future, it's not obvious, but if you've read the series and are familiar with it, you should be able to tell what various flashes of images are.

[Thor]

 

The DO is cleaver... no one knows how he will break the wheel... no one!

 

run at it with an axe screaming bloody murder.

[zanotam]

Hmm ...

 

That whole section has always been problematic to me.  I personally think that what we were seeing is some sort of use of the True Power which enables Ishamael to link the various Darkfriends directly with the Dark One (which is why he called them to Shayol Ghul, rather than delivering their instructions to them where they were).

 

If Ishy knew all the things implied by those fragmentary flashes, and still did (and didn't do) what he did (and didn't do) then he would be much stupider than I think he is.  On the other hand, the Dark One has access to knowledge (and gaps in his knowledge) that don't follow human patterns.  So much of what Carridin saw (what might have been Lanfear escaping the Bore, the sky raining fire, the moon and stars falling, the dead walking, and the total loss of his own sense of identity) is completely unrelated to anything Carridin would see or be ordered to do.  The method of delivery seems to match the pain and ecstasy of direct connection with the Dark One.  It almost seems as if the Dark One shoved his own perception of a chunk of the Pattern into Carridin's head, to serve as a contingency override, like we saw activated in ACoS ch 15 when Carridin saw Mat in Ebou Dar.

 

It seems to me (and the choice of title, "A Memory of Light" and the working title for book 13 "Shifting Winds" seem to add weight) that things are about to start seriously hitting the fan (making murdering the entire Seanchan upper nobility except Tuon look like a joke), the Light was obviously very powerful and dangerous yet the strike at Shayol Ghul was truly a desperate measure, not a single female Aes Sedai willing to take the risk. Ishy was 'in charge' of the DO's strategy and his defection seems to have been a key part of the beginning of the war, but the key was that he was no major strategist, no tactician or general yet somehow he managed to be, if not as popular as LTT (since Demandred was usually second), as powerful. Where talking about someone who was a master of the game sha'rah, a game that makes stones, a game that great generals and masters of the Great Game are the best at, seem simple. He was in charge of the DO's forces even though he never actually commanded, he is the 'heart of the dark', the 'soul of the shadow, and he seems to not want to just win, he wants to win in such a way that none could ever challenge his victory, prove himself unbeatable it seems to me. I've always figured that when Tarmon Gai'din comes around will be the earliest we'll understand Ishamael's motives.

[Mr Ares]

The DO's followers are always the real threat

I'd say Him fixing the weather, or spoiling food, or similar are acts that make Him a big threat in His own right.

I do have to agree though, the DO is stupid.

Why?

 

I'm not an idiot though

Are you quite sure? Would you like a second opinion?

[Durinax]

I am sure an godlike entity like the DO cannot be stupid. I just think he over complicates things (like the forsaken) and that causes him to fail at times.

[zanotam]

I am sure an godlike entity like the DO cannot be stupid. I just think he over complicates things (like the forsaken) and that causes him to fail at times.

 

That's why he's stupid, it's very possible for ANYONE to be stupid at time, he just seems to be consistently so, or at least he is made out to be.

[Durinax]

maybe it is just that his true plan has not yet been revealed, he is allowing his plans to fail in order to give rand overconfidence so he can kill him

[arkinia]

What makes people think we are supposed to know what has been going on in a 12 book series before the story is even over? Ever heard of a plot twist?

[zanotam]

What makes people think we are supposed to know what has been going on in a 12 book series before the story is even over? Ever heard of a plot twist?

 

I'm saying he SEEMS stupid, I think he is, but that doesn't mean I truly believe that there isn't some massive plot twist on the way, there obviously is.