Asmoden.

[danis]

Another possible motive for Moiraine: If she we're to kill Asmodean before the fell through the doorway, she would probably distance Rand from her (I believe this is the point at which Rand was getting very stickly about Moiraine trying to control him). Although I'm sure maybe she could have killed Asmodean without Rand realising it was her.

 

One other thing I'm curious about: If Moiraine asked as one of her wishes that Asmodean were to be killed, what would happen if said wish was granted? Would she be permitted to actually kill him, or would it be by other means. Personally I think that Moiraine wouldn't be allowed out of the Eelfinn world. This raises the complication that Asmodean knew who it was that killed him.

 

As you can see, I'm yet to really take a standpoint over this issue.

[Guest Egwene]

if you have a look at the last couple of pages on the Asmo thread on the other board, this one here has kind of revived the Moiraine discussion there. If you read my posts on those two pages, you'll find my explenation to that question.

.

[MsDanya]

I know who it is!! I do I do I do!!! :D

[Kadere]

I'm quite certain RJ has denied them being anything other than two servants. They were not Graendal and Sammael.

 

If this is true that's great! Would you be able to find that quote? Putting any theory to rest with definate answers is always wonderful.

 

I personally still think Lanfear had the best motive, I don't know exactly how she would have been able to do it, unless she wished herself there to kill Asmodean or something, guessing the same way people believe Moriaine did it could be possible for Lanfear. But that would have terrified Asmodean, and been a really awesome twist, and she was the first person I thought of when I read it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why would Lanfear want to kill Asmodean? She knew where he was and what he was doing. He didn't have anything to do with getting her shoved through the portal. Even IF she could have gotten out prior to being transmigrated, she would have gone after Rand, not Asmodean. And the fact that she was transmigrated and subsequently mindtrapped says that she didn't do any gallivanting in the interim.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not saying that she wouldn't kill Asmodean if the chance just happened to present itself, I'm saying that to get ANYONE would have required nearly impossible effort, and she wouldn have spent that effort elsewhere. Asmodean was pretty far down her list.

[Guest cwestervelt]

cwestervelt: I'm quite certain RJ has denied them being anything other than two servants. They were not Graendal and Sammael.

 

Kadere: If this is true that's great! Would you be able to find that quote? Putting any theory to rest with definate answers is always wonderful.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=125808

That is the best I can do for you.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Besides, Sammael being there would have made no sense regardless. He was supposed to be holed up in Illian drawing al'Thor to him. And if Graendal wanted to hide, she wouldn't pose as a servant, she would use the invisibility trick Asmodean used to get past the Maidens so he could hide Aviendha's gateway when Aviendha took a vacation to Seanchan for a romp in an igloo.

 

Actually there are lots of different ways she could hide, I just wanted to bring up Aviendha in an igloo.

[Toy and Minion]

Yes, those are some great points, RAW! I was thinking along the same lines. It seems that we are all missing something. Didn't RJ say in an interview that who killed Asmo was quite obvious? I truly belive it was one of the Forsaken. I have no proof of this, it is just what I belive.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

 

The "intuitively obvious" statement does, to me, take a lot of wind out of some of the convoluted theories which are proposed ... some of those theories would be FUN mind, but they are not "intuitively obvious". And they are not formulated by "casual" observers.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The "intuitively obvious" also indicates that it could be difficult or even impossible to connect the dots logically. The clues are scattered and disconnected. The result would either be a subconsious connection resulting in an answer, or an attempt at logic that goes nowhere. That is why Moiraine was and still is my choice as the killer. It was an immediate, intuitive, revelation. We don't have the information needed to form a true case against her. It is just feels right.

[Guest Egwene]

Don't forget... RJ made that comment. I wonder how accurately he can judge whether something is 'intuitively obvious' when he himself knows the whole scenario including the before and after like the contents of his back pocket?

.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Graendal "feels" right to me. AND she fits logically. AND she is not obvious.

 

It is true that RJ's ability to judge the "obviousness" of something is suspect, given that he KNOWS, and many things seem obvious in hindsight.

 

None of this detracts in any way from Graendal's motive, means, and opportunity.

 

The "intuitively obvious" also indicates that it could be difficult or even impossible to connect the dots logically.

 

 

Um, no it doesn't. Intuitive does not mean "contradicting logic". It means you should be able to reach the answer without a concsious appeal to formal logic. And it means you should know the answer right away, in such a way that REMAINS CORRECT when formal logic is applied. The fact that Graendal is the logical answer does not preclude her from being the intuitive answer as well. And the fact that you would use that argument is a tacit acknowledgement that Moiraine's case is not logically strong.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: Graendal "feels" right to me. AND she fits logically. AND she is not obvious.

 

It is true that RJ's ability to judge the "obviousness" of something is suspect, given that he KNOWS, and many things seem obvious in hindsight.

 

None of this detracts in any way from Graendal's motive, means, and opportunity.

 

cwestervelt: The "intuitively obvious" also indicates that it could be difficult or even impossible to connect the dots logically.

 

RobertAlexWillis: Um, no it doesn't. Intuitive does not mean "contradicting logic". It means you should be able to reach the answer without a concsious appeal to formal logic. And it means you should know the answer right away, in such a way that REMAINS CORRECT when formal logic is applied. The fact that Graendal is the logical answer does not preclude her from being the intuitive answer as well. And the fact that you would use that argument is a tacit acknowledgement that Moiraine's case is not logically strong.

 

Did you fail to notice that I said "intuitively obvious" indicates that it could be difficult or impossible to prove? That doesn't mean that for something to be intuitive it must defy logic, just that it can. I'm sure you've heard statements along the lines of, "I can't explain it. It just felt like the right thing to do." That is intuition. The reasons are too obscure to provide a logical conclusion but your subconcious still knew the answer. Maybe you should check a thesaurus for synonymns of "intuitive." You get words like instinctive, untaught, spontaneous, emotional. Those concepts, especially emotional, introduce personal bias and are not conducive to a logical approach.

 

You say that Graendal "feels" right to you? Did her name immediately come to mind when you read Asmodean's killing? If not then while it may "feel" right to you now it wasn't intuitive. You say that Graendal fits logically? Simply denying that anyone else could have done it isn't a logical conclusion. It is as subject to personal bias as any other conclusion. Even if you could prove that no-one else did it, that still only provides a starting point. Actually promoting her as the killer involves too much speculation to call it logical. Especially considering how you must use the most insubstantial of arguments to provide her with opportunity. About the only thing in your statement that was accurate is that Graendal is not obvious.

[Seldy]

Let's say we know person A or B is behind a door. If I tell you it's not person B, then logically you know it's person A.

 

If we expand the list to all known users of the power, and eliminate them, we should logically come to a shorter list of suspects. If we only have one suspect, then we should have the murderer.

 

Arthur Conan Doyle wisely wrote in The Sign of Four: "Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth."

 

How do police investigate a murder? They question people and try and find out who would have a motive for killing the deceased, then check out those people to see if they were able to commit the crime.

 

Intuitively, when Asmodean dies it seems pretty obvious that a Forsaken would kill him because he was helping Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

No true answer can CONTRADICT logic. If the true answer seems to contradict logic, then logic was not properly applied, or the initial assumptions were false.

[colonelforbin]

As I've said before...Prof. Plum in the ballroom with the lead pipe...pretty cut and dry here folks... :roll:

[murali284]

"... the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him."

 

 

It cannot be moirane because Asmodean was had no reason to fear he but was too scared to say anything but "You? no!"

For the same reason, it cannot have been any of the forsaken. It is more likely that they would not kill him instantly but actually torture and toy with him before they finish him off. Even if they wanted to kill him, He could have actually survived a few seconds longer than it took for his last word to die off

Hence it can be either Shaidar Haran or the Gholam. These are two characters which people who can channel have no chance against.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It cannot be either Shaidar Haran or a gholam, because neither had been introduced before or in The Fires of Heaven, and RJ said we had all the clues we needed to know who the murderer was up to and within that book.

 

It is not a given that the Forsaken would want to toy with or torture him. Some of them might enjoy it, but if the situation would not permit it, they would simply act.

 

As for the words "You? No!" disqualifying Moiraine, I don't buy that, and I'm SURE that it WASN'T Moiraine. "You?" is shock, which Asmodean would certainly feel IF he saw Moiraine, and "No!" is fear, which he would feel if she was taking action that would kill him. So, the choice of words is not what disqualifies her.

 

I would go into that more, but there is another thread for that, which I have finished with, personally. Feel free to review it if you wish.

[TheDiceAgain...]

(Dang, I hate when people post what I was about to say!)

 

Anyway, as Robert said, we had not yet seen a gholam or Shaidar Haran, in the series yet.

 

Asmodean would have no idea who SH was and since we (the readers) had no idea what a gholam was at the time, neither can be classified as "intuitively obvious" to anyone, never mind the "casual observer".

 

Incidentally, I'm still firmly in the Graendal camp. She had motive, means and much less convoluted and more easily explainable opportunity than Moiraine.

[murali284]

I'm sticking with my theory at least with the gholam part. Asmodean new about gholam then. He may not have known shaidar haran. But it would seem logical that though the gholam was not properly introduced until mat sees it in book seven. but we know that harid fel was killed by a gholam. Hence there had to have been a gholam around the vicinity at the time. We can't really discount he gholam just because we did not know about it at the time.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We can't really discount he gholam just because we did not know about it at the time.

 

Yes we can. RJ said sufficient clues were given in the books up to and including The Fires of Heaven. Since we didn't know about gholam then, it couldn't be a gholam. Yes, Herid Fel was killed by a gholam, but we didn't know that until later by implication.

 

 

Incidentally, the disappearance of Asmodean's body doesn't fit a gholam's modus operandi anyway.

[murali284]

I still think it cannot be the forsaken as i think there was one point when tey all thought he was hiding even though we already knew he was dead.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I still think it cannot be the forsaken as i think there was one point when tey all thought he was hiding even though we already knew he was dead.

 

Graendal didn't. She is the only one that constantly says he must be dead. She knew he was with Rand (from Lanfear), and since she was part of the cabal with Rahvin, she had knowledge of as well as reason to be in Caemlyn.

[OzzieAlThor]

It was The Woman's Circle.

 

Mark my words....