Inside the tower of Ghanji

[mb]

I was thinking, the first time mat went to through the circle stone door, it seemed to us that he was in their for only a few minutes judging by the length of the conversation, but it turned out he was in there for over 8 or 9 days, sorry i dont know how long exactly.

If you are speaking of Rhuidean, the entire trip was actually 7 days from the portal stone location (Shadow Rising Chapter 34).  The time spent in the doorway would have been slightly less than that.

 

The first doorway he went through was actually in Tear.  The actual time spent in that doorway I would guess would have been no more than a few hours since he got out the same night he entered.

 

"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" ...

"Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!" <TSR: 15, 253, Into the Doorway>

 

...ALL are connected to the Eelfinn.

Actually, only "live once more a part of what was" and "Go to Rhuidean" are the only things connected to the Eelfinn at this moment.

"die and live again", that was actually in the Rahvin hunt.

"give up half the light of the world to save the world"; Mat will lose one eye, but we do not yet know what the situation will be.

 

Furthermore, Min's failed viewing of Moiraine being INTEGRAL to Rand's victory suggests that him saving her will indirectly lead to him saving the world.

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".  For Moiraine to fulfill that viewing, she will need to die at some point.  The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me would more likely be a marriage with Thom; likely seen when the group entered the inn.

 

Oh and PS even with the quote from RJ I really disagree with the Mat dying in Camelyn. I know there was a very heated thread about this last year and no opinions were changed by the end of it. But what we know of Balefire the prophecy shouldn't have been filled there.

Being brought back to life through balefire to me can satisfy "die and live again".

And Rand did see Mat die.

 

[Bela]

I was thinking, the first time mat went to through the circle stone door, it seemed to us that he was in their for only a few minutes judging by the length of the conversation, but it turned out he was in there for over 8 or 9 days, sorry i dont know how long exactly.

If you are speaking of Rhuidean, the entire trip was actually 7 days from the portal stone location (Shadow Rising Chapter 34).  The time spent in the doorway would have been slightly less than that.

 

The first doorway he went through was actually in Tear.  The actual time spent in that doorway I would guess would have been no more than a few hours since he got out the same night he entered.

 

"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" ...

"Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!" <TSR: 15, 253, Into the Doorway>

 

...ALL are connected to the Eelfinn.

Actually, only "live once more a part of what was" and "Go to Rhuidean" are the only things connected to the Eelfinn at this moment.

"die and live again", that was actually in the Rahvin hunt. Yes maybe not, but there still are connections. RJ's comment and the balefire death completely contradict each other. As Lord Nik says "By what we know of Balefire the prophecy shouldn't have been fulfilled there." So either there is more to RJ's words and he thinks we should be able to figure it out because it is obvious (example: Who killed Asmodean?), he misspoke, or he was deliberately throwing us in another direction. RAW you say we think we know more than RJ, we don't and the sarcasm isn't very much appreciated. However the contradiction is too big to just brush aside.

"give up half the light of the world to save the world"; Mat will lose one eye, but we do not yet know what the situation will be. It is likely though which makes three, if not four things that connect their prophecies if you include "Son of battles!"

 

Furthermore, Min's failed viewing of Moiraine being INTEGRAL to Rand's victory suggests that him saving her will indirectly lead to him saving the world.

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".  For Moiraine to fulfill that viewing, she will need to die at some point.  The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me would more likely be a marriage with Thom; likely seen when the group entered the inn.

 

Min wonders if she should tell Rand that he will certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone.

 

Oh and PS even with the quote from RJ I really disagree with the Mat dying in Camelyn. I know there was a very heated thread about this last year and no opinions were changed by the end of it. But what we know of Balefire the prophecy shouldn't have been filled there.

Being brought back to life through balefire to me can satisfy "die and live again".

And Rand did see Mat die.

 

As mentioned above, there is something fishy going on in Randland.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

RAW you say we think we know more than RJ, we don't and the sarcasm isn't very much appreciated. However the contradiction is too big to just brush aside.

 

There is no contradiction.  You just can't seem to understand what it would be like for the 'finns, seeing time bent.  We don't have good vocabulary for dealing with time paradoxes, because they don't actually exist.  But what the Aelfinn said, what RJ said, and what happened in Caemlyn are all perfectly consistent, within the possibilities of a Balefire paradox.

 

And you ARE acting like you understand this better than the author.

[Serick Kerani]

RAW you say we think we know more than RJ, we don't and the sarcasm isn't very much appreciated. However the contradiction is too big to just brush aside.

 

There is no contradiction.  You just can't seem to understand what it would be like for the 'finns, seeing time bent.  We don't have good vocabulary for dealing with time paradoxes, because they don't actually exist.  But what the Aelfinn said, what RJ said, and what happened in Caemlyn are all perfectly consistent, within the possibilities of a Balefire paradox.

 

And you ARE acting like you understand this better than the author.

I agree with RAW. RJ said it so it is what happened. I don't think that there is anymore complexity to his words than beyond,it happened. He thinks that we should have been able to figure it out and we should have. And I also agree that there is no contradiction. It was a paradox, watch enough science channel episodes and you'll see for yourself.

[Bela]

Really Serick.... Most of what exists in the books expand beyond our science, so it can hardly attribute. As for the science channel, half of what you see on there is crap and unproven theories.

 

Balefire has it's rules and, like gravity, they cannot be broken. RAWs explanation of 'time bending' is the only plausible alternative to sidestep a Balefire Law and that seems a reasonably strong platform to stand on, however out-of-this-world it may be.

 

As for the author, he set a scientific law, and those don't change. Everything is always in motion, energy is conserved, the speed of light is unsurpassable. Some things cannot be broken, this isn't Star Trek, Randland is based on well balanced sciences and scientific laws and they can't just be broken like that.

 

[a5m]

Furthermore, Min's failed viewing of Moiraine being INTEGRAL to Rand's victory suggests that him saving her will indirectly lead to him saving the world.

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".  For Moiraine to fulfill that viewing, she will need to die at some point.  The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me would more likely be a marriage with Thom; likely seen when the group entered the inn.

 

To me, Min referred a viewing that required Moiraine for Rand to have a chance at winning the last battle. After all, everyone in the original group was part of it. Since the viewing included "a woman dead and gone", the viewing must not be able to come true so Min thinks it has failed. She won't tell Rand since there really isn't a point to tell him he can't succeed without her.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".

 

Min thinks Moiraine is "dead and gone".  I swear, guys, this isn't actually that hard.

[mb]

Furthermore, Min's failed viewing of Moiraine being INTEGRAL to Rand's victory suggests that him saving her will indirectly lead to him saving the world.

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".  For Moiraine to fulfill that viewing, she will need to die at some point.  The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me would more likely be a marriage with Thom; likely seen when the group entered the inn.

To me, Min referred a viewing that required Moiraine for Rand to have a chance at winning the last battle. After all, everyone in the original group was part of it. Since the viewing included "a woman dead and gone", the viewing must not be able to come true so Min thinks it has failed. She won't tell Rand since there really isn't a point to tell him he can't succeed without her.

Moiraine might become one candidate that might fulfill it, but she is not the only candidate.

The failed viewing of Moiraine had to have been from a time when Moiraine and Min were together.  The viewing that Rand would fail came long after the last time Min saw Moiraine.

 

The failed Viewing of Moiraine to me cannot be that Rand would fail without her.  The viewing about failing is of "a woman dead and gone".

Min thinks Moiraine is "dead and gone".  I swear, guys, this isn't actually that hard.

What/Who Min may think might not necessarily be the one who fulfills it.

 

[Dark Justice]

Min thinks Moiraine is dead. Hence "dead and gone". Moiraine are the one in Mins "failed" viewing.

[mb]

Min thinks Moiraine is dead. Hence "dead and gone". Moiraine are the one in Mins "failed" viewing.

Again, the person who fulfills it might not be the one who Min thinks.

Also again, the failed Viewing of Moiraine had to have been from a time Moiraine and Min were together.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The failed viewing of Moiraine had to have been from a time when Moiraine and Min were together.  The viewing that Rand would fail came long after the last time Min saw Moiraine.

 

Min saw that viewing around Rand in ACoS ch 35.  Which is indeed a long time after Moiraine would have been sure that Moiraine is dead and gone.  Which is why when she sees Moiraine in a viewing around Rand, she thinks of Moiraine as "a woman who was dead and gone".

 

Who else fits this?  What other woman do we know that everyone thinks is dead and gone but actually isn't, whose reappearance would have a drastic impact on Rand?

 

As if that weren't enough, Min thinks of Moiraine as "the only viewing of hers that had ever failed" in the very same chapter.  Only we know Moiraine is alive, so we know it didn't fail.

 

How can Moiraine be the "only" viewing that Min thinks ever failed, if there is a different woman who is "dead and gone" in her viewing of Rand?

 

I mean, he's all but hitting us over the head with it folks.

[Paradox]

The viewing that Rand would fail came long after the last time Min saw Moiraine.

 

How do you know that? We didn't get the actual viewing right? All we see is Min reminiscing about a viewing, and she could of seen that on day one.

[Dark Justice]

Who else could it me?

Min is never wrong. Moiraine is the only "dead and gone" that stands a chance at coming back.

Its pretty basic 2+2

[vainebekonnes]

There's always, umm, well, okay do we know of any other women that Min might have been referring to?  Some of you say it could be someone other than Moiraine.  Okay, give us an example

[Bela]

Well it could be Moiraine of course. But then again it could also be Moiraine, or Moiraine. Maybe even the cousin of Caroline Damodred?  ::)

[mb]

Min never wrong?  Actually the Viewings are never wrong; Min's interpretation of them might sometimes be wrong.

Min's viewing of Perrin in Dragon Reborn chapter 6, the Tinker with a sword was actually a male though Min thought it was female.

Again, the fulfillment of a viewing might be different from what Min thinks (or from what anyone else thinks).  What is (or what will be) would be what would fulfill it.

 

Who else could fulfill it?

Aviendha was dead for some time. (Rahvin hunt)

Countless maidens have died.  Maybe someone would resurrect one of them.

Cyndane (Lanfear's soul, likely Cabriana's body) might be a possibility; it does not have to be a Light sided woman.  Arangar might also fit.

Other women have died.  A resurrection of one of them might be another possibility.

Or possibly the death is yet to come.

 

[Bela]

When Min knows what something means, she is never wrong. When she is unsure, the outcome is uncertain. She knows what the Rand viewing means.

[Kadere]

 

Who else could fulfill it?

Aviendha was dead for some time. (Rahvin hunt)

Countless maidens have died.  Maybe someone would resurrect one of them.

Cyndane (Lanfear's soul, likely Cabriana's body) might be a possibility; it does not have to be a Light sided woman.  Arangar might also fit.

Other women have died.  A resurrection of one of them might be another possibility.

Or possibly the death is yet to come.

 

 

Min knows Aviendha's alive, she doesn't know who Cyndane or Aran'gar even are, none of the other dead women are all that important to Rand or Min, and a death yet to come doesn't fit with her thinking the woman is currently DEAD!

 

Now you're really just grasping straws.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Hi.

 

While I would like to point out that I fully support everyone who is saying that there isn't anyone else who fits the bill, it doesn't really matter.  The point is moot, because Min thinks that her viewings regarding Moiraine are the only ones that have ever failed.

 

The actual sentence is, "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."  That sentence is a little confusing, since it actually says that Moiraine is a viewing, rather than a person.  But what it means is that the viewings regarding Moiraine are the only viewings that ever failed, in her mind.

 

So, if the woman who Rand would need but who Min thinks is "dead and gone" is a different woman than Moiraine, there would have to be two people about whom she had failed visions.  Since we know there is only one person about whom she thinks her visions have failed, the woman in her viewing of Rand has to be Moiraine, no matter how many viable replacements we can come up with.

 

(But I still agree that there aren't any viable replacements.)

[Majsju]

I think the problem mb has is that 1a woman dead and gone1 can not be about Moiraine because we (the readers) knows Moiraine is not the slightest bit dead. But here is the thing, as far as Min knows, Moiraine is in fact dead and gone. And in cases like these, it is her knowledge that matters, not ours.

[yosoyeljosh]

Okay, to all those complaining about Mat's death by lightning and then being balefired back in to existence, and how that doesn't fit the prophecy: well, it does.  The 'finns feed on the pattern.  They see it in a very different way than we do.  They seem to see it more as a reader of a story would, paradoxes and all.  But they're from a different world, with very different laws (even the observable geometry of their world makes no sense).  If you don't like it, I'm sorry, but lightning then balefire is the best answer you're going to get, and its your own stubbornness that keeps you from accepting it.

 

Sometimes things don't play out how we want.  I've always been very irritated with Rand's inability to harm women after he callously chopped the head off a darkfriend as his first ladykill.  Then suddenly in the next book, it's a huge dilemma.  Yes, I know he was crazy, and I know he later feels bad for what he did, but for me, it seems really tacked on.  Oh well.  Rand can't kill women.  I get it.  I move on.  Balefire brought Mat back to live again in what WAS, the first hint that there's a time-aspect to it.  You'll get it.  You'll move on.

 

[Yllek]

Remember that a central theme to the WOT is that noone knows everything there is to know.  Also remember that the big book was written as if it were written by a person in that world, so not everything there will be accurate either.  As Majisu said, Min truely believes that Min is dead and gone.  Not to mention the fact that Min's viewing that Rand will almost certainly fail without a woman dead and done doesn't necesarily mean Moiraine (I believe it does though) because we don't know if Rand will fail or not. Furthermore, in stating Rand will almost certaintly fail, it doesn't specify WHAT he will fail in.  So...

[Mr Ares]

I think the problem mb has is that 1a woman dead and gone1 can not be about Moiraine because we (the readers) knows Moiraine is not the slightest bit dead.

I think mb's problems go far beyond that...

[Lord Nik]

Okay, to all those complaining about Mat's death by lightning and then being balefired back in to existence, and how that doesn't fit the prophecy: well, it does. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, but lightning then balefire is the best answer you're going to get, and its your own stubbornness that keeps you from accepting it.

 

  Balefire brought Mat back to live again in what WAS, the first hint that there's a time-aspect to it.  You'll get it.  You'll move on.

 

 

Wow! Your undeniable Logic of *if anyone doesn't agree with you they are wrong* is swaying my resolve as we speak!

 

I especially like the solid proof you use

such as "balefire is the best answer your going to get"

And how my stubbornness is keeping me from agreeing with you...

 

Maybe I'll get it one day and "move on" but until then you better work on presenting your ideas.

 

  As Majisu said, Min truely believes that Min is dead and gone.

::)

 

 

[mb]

I repeat:  The fulfillment of a viewing is not about what is thought/believed, but about what actually happens.  The woman who fulfills it can be different from who Min thinks/believes regardless of there being a failed viewing of the woman or not.  The only opinion that matters is the author's.

 

Again, the Viewing of Moiraine had to been from a time when Min & Moiraine were together.  The viewing being that Rand would fail without Moiraine, there is no indication of that coming from any of the times Min & Moiraine were together.  If Min did have that viewing in any of those times, Min would likely have told both of them and Moiraine would probably allowed for Rand to know.

From Min's first recorded conversation, Moiraine asked her to view the group; that infers that Min told Moiraine all of the viewings.  From the time Min & Moiraine where in the mountains, Moiraine mentions that she had viewings; likely from the previous time they were together.  Since Min did not tell any of Moiraine's viewings, Moiraine probably wanted the viewings to be secret.  A viewing about someone failing without her, Moiraine probably would have wanted the someone to know.  A marriage of Moiraine and anyone else would be a viewing that Moiraine would have wanted secret since Moiraine is not of the Green Ajah; and there is Moiraine's certainty of Thom being alive when the group was traveling in the Ways and Moiraine's certainty of the face of the man who she would marry when speaking with Nynaeve/Egwene/Elayne in Tear and Moiraine's certainty that Thom would survive Tanchico when speaking with him before leaving Tear.