Inside the tower of Ghanji

[fadge100]

Hey guys,

 

I was thinking, the first time mat went to through the circle stone door, it seemed to us that he was in their for only a few minutes judging by the length of the conversation, but it turned out he was in there for over 8 or 9 days, sorry i dont know how long exactly.

 

Wouldn't it take maybe a few hours at least to rescue moiraine, in side the snake and fox world of course, wouldn't that be a lot more than 8 or 9 days, so to me this leaves two options.

 

A.) The last battle isn't for a few months at least, which i doubt, because each book in the series so far seems that long, giving mat and co. time to rescue moiraine.

 

Or

 

B.) Moiraine is rescued, and the Last Battle has already begun.

 

 

Sorry if you already talked about this, couldn't find topic. and if i'm missing something thanx for correcting me.

[Kadere]

He may have been in the Tower for days, or he may have been hanging from the Tree for days.

[fadge100]

oooo, forgot about the hanging lol, good catch, ok that clears things up, thanx Kadere

[RobertAlexWillis]

He may have been in the Tower for days, or he may have been hanging from the Tree for days.

 

Should I be assuming that is a joke?  Please?  PLEASE?!?!

[Eleint]

I doubt it's consistent.  The Aelfinn/Eelfinn are basically equivalent to our 'Fair Folk'.  Sometimes when you're with the Fair Folk, days pass or years.  Sometimes it's all over in an instant.

 

He could come out for the Last Battle, once it's started, but I doubt it.  Perhaps going through the Tower locks your time flow, or perhaps he'll just be lucky.  This _IS_ Mat.

[safwd]

He may have been in the Tower for days, or he may have been hanging from the Tree for days.

 

Should I be assuming that is a joke?  Please?  PLEASE?!?!

 

Mat is pretty bad, but im not sure even he can hang for a couple days and only be close to dead.

[Bela]

This may be good news for Moiraine, maybe she has only been in there a few days. Unlikely though,. The time issues could be inconsistent, or the Finns could have spent a few days implanting some sort of device or ter'angreal or magicalness in his head in order to extract his memories past, present and future. We don't know how technologically advanced they are. In any case that procedure could have taken days, or they could have kept him in order for Rand to be able to save him. They knew he wasn't going to actually die when they hung him since they knew his future.

[vainebekonnes]

They knew he wasn't going to actually die when they hung him since they knew his future.

Did they?  They didn't answer any questions, so how do we know that they knew his future?

[Roxinos]

They knew he wasn't going to actually die when they hung him since they knew his future.

 

I'm pretty sure they would have enjoyed his death more than his near death, but the only argument in favor of the 'Finns knowing that he was going to live is the note they left him on the spear.

[Bela]

Sorry it came out as a mistype. The Snakes and the Foxes are connected in some way, seems plausible to assume that they could know his answers. This...

 

"Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.

Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.

What was asked is given. The price is paid."

<TSR: 26, 439, The Dedicated>

 

...seems to imply that they were aware that he was going to live through it. Which leads me to believe that they either share intelligence, or a cup of tea now and again.

 

 

Evidence to support this theory:

 

1. The raven-marked (Seanchan) spear suggests that they are aware he has a connection to the Seanchan and/or the Dot9M.

2. "Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!" and "Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades." shows that they either correspond or both know that he is going to get memories from past finnventurers. The spear mentioned in 1 strengthens this battle symbolism. As does the fox head medallion which makes him near immune to channelers and giving him a slightly more equal footing in wars involving them.

3. "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!" furthers what was mentioned in 2.

 

Before you say that 2 and 3 are irrelevant because the Aelfinn see the future, note that...

 

"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" ...

"Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!" <TSR: 15, 253, Into the Doorway>

 

...ALL are connected to the Eelfinn.

 

"To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

Eelfinn hang him. Give him memories of what was.

 

"To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" ...

Not proven, but many suggest Mat will give up his eye to save Moiraine who is imprisoned in finnland. Furthermore, Min's failed viewing of Moiraine being INTEGRAL to Rand's victory suggests that him saving her will indirectly lead to him saving the world.

 

"Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!" <TSR: 15, 253, Into the Doorway>

Eelfinn portal resides in Rhuidean and they give him the memories to be born of generals.

 

[Nightstrike]

Mat didn't die at Rhuidean, so he didn't "die and live again". The inscription on the ashanderai could have been done by Aes Sedai during the AoL, who in turn could have traded it with the finns.

 

 

[Bela]

Why would an Aes Sedai write that on a spear and then proceed to give it to the Eelfinn? That seems to imply that the Aes Sedai made the Eelfinn pay a price.

 

As for Mat dying, the argumentation on it is crap. Mat did die in Rhuidean and Rand resuscitated him. He died and lived again then and there. Rahvin then killed him again in Caemlyn, but Rand massively balefired him and EVERYTHING that Rahvin did earlier didn't happen. Mat DID NOT DIE in Caemlyn, those words might as well have never existed. It is mentioned countless times in the books that balefire erases what the balefireee has previously done, to a certain amount of time set forth by the strength of the balefire. I am fairly certain that Rand's massive balefire reset Rahvin's time clock a bit more than a few hours.

[Nightstrike]

Copied and pasted from wotmania FAQ "Plots, Characters and the Wheel of Time":

Q69- When did Mat Die and Live again? He said something that implied that the Die and Live again prophecy fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising.

I think the finns could be aware of both alternative futures. Both with and without the Balefire.

 

The inscription on the ashanderai could have been made by Aes Sedai who had "paid the price". Or, you could be right and the finns did it themselves. I think the first explanation is more likely, but I think anyone could argue about it either way.

[Bela]

Copied and pasted from wotmania FAQ "Plots, Characters and the Wheel of Time":

Q69- When did Mat Die and Live again? He said something that implied that the Die and Live again prophecy fulfillment was the lightning incident in The Fires of Heaven and not the hanging incident in The Shadow Rising.

I think the finns could be aware of both alternative futures. Both with and without the Balefire.

 

Does anyone have RJ's actual words on this matter? For all we know it could be made up. Until I see RJ's words I will believe otherwise, and when I do see them, I will have to find another way to connect the Finns.

 

 

The inscription on the ashanderai could have been made by Aes Sedai who had "paid the price". Or, you could be right and the finns did it themselves. I think the first explanation is more likely, but I think anyone could argue about it either way.

 

But you said that an Aes Sedai made the spear and gave it to the Finns. Are you saying that an Aes Sedai went to the Finns carrying her beloved power-wrought Ashandarei and the price she paid for her wishes was to give up her beloved spear to the Finns? And she inscribed THAT before giving it to the Finns? I think either I am very confused, or you are very confused. That doesn't make any sense to me.

[Nightstrike]

Does anyone have RJ's actual words on this matter? For all we know it could be made up. Until I see RJ's words I will believe otherwise, and when I do see them, I will have to find another way to connect the Finns.

Do you have RJ's actual words on your matter?

 

But you said that an Aes Sedai made the spear and gave it to the Finns.

No, I didn't say that. I suggested it as the most likely explanation. I haven't changed my mind since then.

 

Are you saying that an Aes Sedai went to the Finns carrying her beloved power-wrought Ashandarei and the price she paid for her wishes was to give up her beloved spear to the Finns? And she inscribed THAT before giving it to the Finns? I think either I am very confused, or you are very confused. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, I'm suggesting that an AS (or someone else, for that matter) traded the ashanderai. She/he would have "paid the price". For her/his wish.

 

 

[Bela]

Does anyone have RJ's actual words on this matter? For all we know it could be made up. Until I see RJ's words I will believe otherwise, and when I do see them, I will have to find another way to connect the Finns.

Do you have RJ's actual words on your matter?

 

Obviously not

 

But you said that an Aes Sedai made the spear and gave it to the Finns.

No, I didn't say that. I suggested it as the most likely explanation. I haven't changed my mind since then.

 

Are you saying that an Aes Sedai went to the Finns carrying her beloved power-wrought Ashandarei and the price she paid for her wishes was to give up her beloved spear to the Finns? And she inscribed THAT before giving it to the Finns? I think either I am very confused, or you are very confused. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Yeah, I'm suggesting that an AS (or someone else, for that matter) traded the ashanderai. She/he would have "paid the price". For her/his wish.

But why in the world would she engrave that on the spear. What the spear SAYS and symbolizes is what matters. The origins of it are irrelevant unless the Aes Sedai did inscribe and give it to the Finns which seems unlikely. Why an Aes Sedai would carry around a weapon like that is beyond me in any case. The spear could be power wrought yes, but Aes Sedai were not the only channelers in the AOL and we do not even know if the spear is from the AOL. The Finns could have made it or a channeler in this time period.

 

[Nightstrike]

But why in the world would she engrave that on the spear.

Why would the finns have engraved it on the spear?

 

What the spear SAYS and symbolizes is what matters.

I agree.

 

The origins of it are irrelevant unless the Aes Sedai did inscribe and give it to the Finns which seems unlikely.

Trading a wish for an item and trading an item for a wish. Some trading must have been done.

 

Why an Aes Sedai would carry around a weapon like that is beyond me in any case.

Who says they carried it around like a weapon? Not me, anyway.

 

The spear could be power wrought yes, but Aes Sedai were not the only channelers in the AOL and we do not even know if the spear is from the AOL. The Finns could have made it or a channeler in this time period.

Yeah, the finns COULD have made it. But it's more likely that Aes Sedai made it and traded it as payment for a wish.

 

 

[Bela]

But why in the world would she engrave that on the spear.

Why would the finns have engraved it on the spear?

 

Because what it says deals almost directly with what has happened and does happen to Mat.

 

What the spear SAYS and symbolizes is what matters.

I agree.

 

The origins of it are irrelevant unless the Aes Sedai did inscribe and give it to the Finns which seems unlikely.

Trading a wish for an item and trading an item for a wish. Some trading must have been done.

 

Not if the Finns made the spear, or stole the spear, or were given the spear for free. Can some Eelfinn channel?

 

Why an Aes Sedai would carry around a weapon like that is beyond me in any case.

Who says they carried it arount like a weapon? Not me, anyway.

 

I didn't say carry it around AS a weapon, I said carry it around. That would be quite awkward, especially if it wasn't being used as a weapon. I doubt Mat would carry the thing around if his leg was fine and he could channel.

 

The spear could be power wrought yes, but Aes Sedai were not the only channelers in the AOL and we do not even know if the spear is from the AOL. The Finns could have made it or a channeler in this time period.

Yeah, the finns COULD have made it. But it's more likely that Aes Sedai made it and traded it as payment for a wish.

 

What makes it more likely? The fact that it is power-wrought? To repeat myself, Aes Sedai are not the only channelers, and to expand on my new theory, it is possible a Finn channeler could have made it.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Does anyone have RJ's actual words on this matter? For all we know it could be made up. Until I see RJ's words I will believe otherwise, and when I do see them, I will have to find another way to connect the Finns.

Nightstrike is right, Mat died in Caemlyn. From the WoTFAQ:

Bill Garrett's report of RJ's appearance at Balticon 30 (April 1996) mentions: "(Jordan noted that Mat's death by lightning and subsequent undoing of his death when Rand balefired Rahvin, fulfills a prophecy about living, dying, and then living again.)" Tim Kington reports that, when asked how long Mat had hung from the Tree of Life in Rhuidean, RJ replied, "Long enough to be almost dead" (emphasis mine) [post-COT signing, Dayton, OH, January 16, 2004].

 

But you said that an Aes Sedai made the spear and gave it to the Finns. Are you saying that an Aes Sedai went to the Finns carrying her beloved power-wrought Ashandarei and the price she paid for her wishes was to give up her beloved spear to the Finns? And she inscribed THAT before giving it to the Finns? I think either I am very confused, or you are very confused. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Where do you think they got the ashandarei from? It was probably made by an AS who traded it to the Eelfinn for something, as was his ter'angreal.

[Eleint]

Just a head's up, including an RJ quote.  It's in relation to the Horn of Valere, but it illustrates that no, Mat didn't die in Rhuidean:

 

http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

[Lord Nik]

A little off topic question.

 

In the BWB there is text stating that the only sentient life in the WoT is

Humans

and

Ogiers

 

All the Nyms, And sentient shadowspawn were/are power wrought

 

I cant remember if the snakey foxey people in Finnland were mentioned but they seem sentient.

 

Were did they come from? Were they made with the power? from a different world?

 

Oh and PS even with the quote from RJ I really disagree with the Mat dying in Camelyn. I know there was a very heated thread about this last year and no opinions were changed by the end of it. But what we know of Balefire the prophecy shouldn't have been filled there. 

[Goramier]

A little off topic question.

 

In the BWB there is text stating that the only sentient life in the WoT is

Humans

and

Ogiers

 

All the Nyms, And sentient shadowspawn were/are power wrought

 

 

I didn't know that. Although moot now there was a time where I was hoping RJ would begin a new series based on the lands beyond Shara after he finished WoT. I was hoping those lands would bring new races and an entire new story line that would in the end unite the two worlds with Shara being the middle man so to speak. Its all moot now but I had hoped for it.

[Majsju]

 

I didn't know that. Although moot now there was a time where I was hoping RJ would begin a new series based on the lands beyond Shara after he finished WoT. I was hoping those lands would bring new races and an entire new story line that would in the end unite the two worlds with Shara being the middle man so to speak. Its all moot now but I had hoped for it.

 

Beyond Shara is a huge ocean, and if someone did manage to cross it, he would end up on the westcoast of Seanchan.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh and PS even with the quote from RJ I really disagree with the Mat dying in Camelyn.

 

Yes!  Finally, someone who openly admits that they think they know more about the series than RJ!

 

Don't feel bad, Lord Nik.  People do it all the time.  You're just being honest about it.  :)

[Paradox]

Hey guys,

 

I was thinking, the first time mat went to through the circle stone door, it seemed to us that he was in their for only a few minutes judging by the length of the conversation, but it turned out he was in there for over 8 or 9 days, sorry i dont know how long exactly.

 

Well the time delay shouldn't be accounted to the ter'angreal, but to Rhuidean (or better yet it's protections). Everybody there were effected by it, not just Mat. Also the trip to Finnland from Tear didn't cause any jet lag.