Channelers and thermo dynamics

[Rinkai]

Does anyone else think about channeling and science and the consequences. Yeah, I know its a fantasy, and there are no such things as trollocs and such, so what if a few rules are broken.

 

the first and second laws of thermo are

-energy must be conserved

-entropy generated is always positive or zero (energy flows in a direction, cups of water dont suddenly get hot, and the surrounding get cold)

 

So if Channelers make a ball of fire,the energy must come from somewhere, and from a place of higher potential.

 

I think its cool to think of channelers as turbines, That take energy from the one power which is almost infinately vast and at an infinately high energy level, and convert it into usable work.

 

The stronger the channeler, the more effecient they are in terms on isentropic efficiency. That means they dont loose energy to irreversabilities.

(maybe mental friction or something)

 

So if the one power really is energy, then it is conserved, and if its at a high energy level, then having it flow to earth(which is assumed to be lower energy level) The energy will be flowing to equilibrium.

 

The last problem is that I there is a finite amount of energy in existence. So the one power cannot be infinite. So if time IS infinite, then ther must be a source that converts something into the one power. I think the one power is made of unused souls. I dont know why. It sounds cool. They seem to be the only thing malleable/etherial enough to transition from energy to non-energy stuff.

[vainebekonnes]

Let's just say that all the energy and matter consumed by black holes go to feed the One Power.  Sure it's a stretch, but it's as good as any other excuse I can think of.

[Luckers]

I think of it more in terms of dualistic induction. Aspects of the power resonate with aspects of the world, weaving the power induces a similar alteration in the natural elements. Weave air and gaseous molecules are effected and influenced. Weave fire and electromagnetic waves are bent or gathered--which in turns incites electrons creating energy.

 

Cause and effect, no energy created and none lost.

[water_seeker]

Yeah, I know its a fantasy, and there are no such things as trollocs and such, so what if a few rules are broken.

 

Actually, one of the hardest parts in writing fantasy is that you have to create a world that makes sense...it has to be believable.  That's why I get a kick out of...I think it's the Mallorean by Eddings when Garion makes a storm and months later Belgarath storms into the Castle at Riva (pun intended) and yells at him because that one storm caused a global climate problem...lol  I rather enjoy the way Eddings deals with "the will and the word" in those books...makes it earthy.

 

Anyway, I figure that the OP isn't really infinite, but the Creator is and keeps the source filled...

[chuckievi]

but the Creator is and keeps the source filled...

 

 

Something must be wrong with me today, but I just had a mental image of the creator "filling" a vat of one power with his erm, recycled beer.

[Bela]

Yeah, I know its a fantasy, and there are no such things as trollocs and such, so what if a few rules are broken.

 

Actually, one of the hardest parts in writing fantasy is that you have to create a world that makes sense...it has to be believable.  That's why I get a kick out of...I think it's the Mallorean by Eddings when Garion makes a storm and months later Belgarath storms into the Castle at Riva (pun intended) and yells at him because that one storm caused a global climate problem...lol  I rather enjoy the way Eddings deals with "the will and the word" in those books...makes it earthy.

 

Anyway, I figure that the OP isn't really infinite, but the Creator is and keeps the source filled...

 

Damn you. Please spoiler warn next time. I just started reading the series.

[water_seeker]

Erm..sorry, didn't realize I'd spoil another series for someone  >.<  For what it's worth, the series is still gonna be a really fun read for you.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Damn you. Please spoiler warn next time. I just started reading the series.

 

Yeah ... he didn't give away a major plot point or anything.  Take it back a notch, Bela.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Where does the energy go?  If the energy comes from somewhere far off to earth, but doesn't leave, then earth should be a pretty hot place.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Luckers explanation is probably the best one, if you need to put something that is clearly a magical violation of the laws of physics as we know them into the mathematical models developed for dealing with the laws of physics as we know them.

[Elgee]

Damn you. Please spoiler warn next time. I just started reading the series.

 

Yeah ... he didn't give away a major plot point or anything.  Take it back a notch, Bela.

 

Bela just stated in another thread that he's doing a reread of the series, so I presume he was just being facetious  ;D

[RobertAlexWillis]

Bela just stated in another thread that he's doing a reread of the series, so I presume he was just being facetious

 

Um, actually ...

 

I think Bela was talking about David Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon in this thread ... thats the one that Bela was mad at water_seeker for "spoiling".  In the other thread he was talking about re-reading WoT.

 

So, I think he was serious ... and seriously overreacting.  :(

[Rinkai]

Where does the energy go?  If the energy comes from somewhere far off to earth, but doesn't leave, then earth should be a pretty hot place.

 

Nah, it's not too hard for energy to get dispersed, at least on a planetary scale. Alot of energy can be converted to rogue vibrations and sound, and ALOT can be stored in the oceans. But if time IS infinite like in the book, things get more complicated...

[Elgee]

Um, actually ...

 

I think Bela was talking about David Eddings' Belgariad/Malloreon in this thread ... thats the one that Bela was mad at water_seeker for "spoiling".  In the other thread he was talking about re-reading WoT.

 

So, I think he was serious ... and seriously overreacting.  :(

 

Aaah ... duh  :-[

 

Oh well, I'd be a bit p'd off too if someone spoilered (eeh look at me inventing new words  ;D) another series for me  :P

 

Rinkai, it is A LOT, not ALOT. *Breathes through nose.*

 

Perhaps this common spelling error began because there does exist in English a word spelled “allot” which is a verb meaning to apportion or grant. The correct form, with “a” and “lot” separated by a space is perhaps not often encountered in print because formal writers usually use other expressions such as “a great deal,” “often,” etc.

 

You shouldn’t write “alittle” either. It’s “a little.”

 

Sorry - this just bugs the *** out of me  :-[

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

*smoothing Elgee's ruffles feathers*

 

Now, now ... lets just go get some ice cream ... it'll be allright.

 

;D

 

 

[Elgee]

... with hot chocolate sauce and a sprinkle of nuts? *bounces*  ;D

 

Anyway, Rinkai shouldn't feel bad - everything he said except "a lot" went straigth over the top of my head  :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

... but you didn't call me out on "allright"?  -sigh- Subtlety is a lost art, I fear ...

[Elgee]

Bad RAW - you distracted me with sweeties  :(

[Osan`gar]

I think of it more in terms of dualistic induction. Aspects of the power resonate with aspects of the world, weaving the power induces a similar alteration in the natural elements. Weave air and gaseous molecules are effected and influenced. Weave fire and electromagnetic waves are bent or gathered--which in turns incites electrons creating energy.

 

Cause and effect, no energy created and none lost.

 

i dont know anything about physics so i could be off base. please correct me if i am wrong. i think i see a fallacy in your theory. lets take fire for example. if the fire is created from the power then it needs a fuel source to sustain it, thereby creating energy in the form of light and heat. if it is not created by the power then it would be summoned by gathering heat from available local sources. this would cause every source object to reduce in temperature equivelent to the amount of heat needed to sustain the fire. thus an energy exchange.

[Luckers]

Actually heat created by the Power would seem to be heat sustained by the Power--which is why it disipates once the weaves that were maintaining it are destroyed by Mat, Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal.

 

In effect it doesn't need a fuel source--the Power, which if my theory is correct, causes certain elements to act in certain ways--causing certain reactions. It's not that different to solar power--using electromagnetic waves to excite electrons in jumping from their source to an annode.

 

As for your point about the decrease in temperature--heat is not something that exists as a pure state. It results from exciting electrons--the electrons give off heat (as well as other forms of electromagnetic radiation).

 

They arn't gathering heat, they are causing it by exciting nearby electrons. No heat would disapear from nearby, and its no more creating energy than solar power.

 

Like solar power, without the source of the excitation it would dissipate immediately. Which is what we witness.

[Alghar Khan]

Actually heat created by the Power would seem to be heat sustained by the Power--which is why it disipates once the weaves that were maintaining it are destroyed by Mat, Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal.

If it's being "made" by a channeler, and then "dissipates" the normal way, then it is energy that has been added to the world from the One Power. RJ said the sun will never go nova in the WoT universe. That's energy that keeps up coming from outside the world (the One Power?).

 

In effect it doesn't need a fuel source--the Power, which if my theory is correct, causes certain elements to act in certain ways--causing certain reactions. It's not that different to solar power--using electromagnetic waves to excite electrons in jumping from their source to an annode.

It takes energy to excite electrons. Energy that comes from outside the created world. The Creator's own One Power.

 

As for your point about the decrease in temperature--heat is not something that exists as a pure state. It results from exciting electrons--the electrons give off heat (as well as other forms of electromagnetic radiation).

Heat can exist as vibrations in the matter, as photons and as waves. Dissipated heat is still energy. Whether it goes into outer space or somewhere else in the universe.

 

They arn't gathering heat, they are causing it by exciting nearby electrons. No heat would disapear from nearby, and its no more creating energy than solar power.

Exciting electrons takes energy. From the worlds perspective, it would be energy added to the created world. Unless we would think the One Power is part of the world, but I think we can safely say that it isn't part of the world.

 

Like solar power, without the source of the excitation it would dissipate immediately. Which is what we witness.

If it gets dissipated the normal way, then it is still energy. Energy that doesn't come from the created world. It was added to it. Where does the heat energy go? Out into space? If it just disappears completely out of existence, then maybe they have "borrowed" it from somewhere. Otherwise it is energy that has been added to the system. The entropy of the system seems to stay the same in the WoT universe. That's definitely not like in our world. I'd say that the One Power is a never ending energy supply that keeps turning the Wheel and maintaining the right conditions for life.

 

 

[Luckers]

If it's being "made" by a channeler, and then "dissipates" the normal way, then it is energy that has been added to the world from the One Power. RJ said the sun will never go nova in the WoT universe. That's energy that keeps up coming from outside the world (the One Power?).

 

It's not being 'made', its being 'excited'. There is no more energy being added here than when you slide your feet back and forth and shock someone. That channler alters to flow of the power, which due to the dualism causes electrons to move in ways they wouldn't have otherwise. The movement produces heat--which is an utterly natural thing. There is no created energy here, the heat is the byproduct of the manipulated movement, which is catalysed by the power.

 

No energy is being lost, or created. The power is molded into a shape, a weave, which causes forces in the world to change, resulting in effects, with by products. But nothing is lost or created.

 

Quote

In effect it doesn't need a fuel source--the Power, which if my theory is correct, causes certain elements to act in certain ways--causing certain reactions. It's not that different to solar power--using electromagnetic waves to excite electrons in jumping from their source to an annode.

 

It takes energy to excite electrons. Energy that comes from outside the created world. The Creator's own One Power.

 

Yes, it does take energy--in the case of the annode its ultraviolet electromagnetic waves, in this case is the dualistic induction of the manipulation of the power.

 

The energy, by the way, does not come from outside the created world. The One Power is stated many times to co-exist in the same time and space as the the world. It permeates reality. It is not energy being added from outside the closed system (as would be the issue in the violation of the Conservation of Energy), it is energy that exists already within the closed system.

 

Quote

As for your point about the decrease in temperature--heat is not something that exists as a pure state. It results from exciting electrons--the electrons give off heat (as well as other forms of electromagnetic radiation).

 

 

Heat can exist as vibrations in the matter, as photons and as waves. Dissipated heat is still energy. Whether it goes into outer space or somewhere else in the universe.

 

I don't disagree... but I'm not sure how that comment is relevent to anything I said.

 

Exciting electrons takes energy. From the worlds perspective, it would be energy added to the created world. Unless we would think the One Power is part of the world, but I think we can safely say that it isn't part of the world.

 

Actually we know as a fact that it is. It's stated several times.

 

Quote

Like solar power, without the source of the excitation it would dissipate immediately. Which is what we witness.

 

If it gets dissipated the normal way, then it is still energy. Energy that doesn't come from the created world. It was added to it. Where does the heat energy go? Out into space? If it just disappears completely out of existence, then maybe they have "borrowed" it from somewhere. Otherwise it is energy that has been added to the system. The entropy of the system seems to stay the same in the WoT universe. That's definitely not like in our world. I'd say that the One Power is a never ending energy supply that keeps turning the Wheel and maintaining the right conditions for life.

 

*blinks* *blinks again*.

 

There are sentences in that that make no sense at all. "Where does the heat energy go?" The same place heat always goes--into the myriad of biological and chemical reactions that occur in the natural world as a result of heat.

 

And by what basis do you say that the entropy stays the same? The decay of energy, and subsequent transmutation has never been quantified. Indeed, given the hints within the story that this world is our own I'd say thats incredibly unlikely. Honestly i don't know the basis of what your arguing--the One Power is a part of the world, the manipulation of which exists within the same closed system.

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

And by what basis do you say that the entropy stays the same? The decay of energy, and subsequent transmutation has never been quantified. Indeed, given the hints within the story that this world is our own I'd say thats incredibly unlikely. Honestly i don't know the basis of what your arguing--the One Power is a part of the world, the manipulation of which exists within the same closed system.

If the Wheel will turn forever, entropy can't increase.  If entropy increases, the Universe would suffer heat death, and the Ages would not come and go with the turning of the Wheel.

[Alghar Khan]

It's not being 'made', its being 'excited'.

Oh, yeah. And where does that energy come from? From the One Power, of course.

 

There is no more energy being added here than when you slide your feet back and forth and shock someone.

Yes, there is. Because the energy your muscles are making use of are bound as chemical energy. It comes from the food you eat. It is already there. But the energy from the One Power isn't already present in the WoT universe. Instead it comes from the One Power.

 

That channler alters to flow of the power, which due to the dualism causes electrons to move in ways they wouldn't have otherwise.

The energy comes from the One Power. It is not part of the world, "the system", before the channeler channels it. Then the energy becomes a part of the univers, or "the system".

 

No energy is being lost, or created. The power is molded into a shape, a weave, which causes forces in the world to change, resulting in effects, with by products. But nothing is lost or created.

The energy enters the world. Before that, it wasn't part of the world.

 

Yes, it does take energy--in the case of the annode its ultraviolet electromagnetic waves, in this case is the dualistic induction of the manipulation of the power.

What are you talking about? If you're talking about a battery, then no, there are no "ultraviolet electromagnetic waves".

 

The energy, by the way, does not come from outside the created world.

It comes from the One Power. The One Power supplies the energy for the Wheel, but it is not part of the Wheel.

 

The One Power is stated many times to co-exist in the same time and space as the the world.

....... Oh, and so what? By the way, where is the One Power stated to be a part of the Wheel or the world? A quote from somewhere?

 

It permeates reality. It is not energy being added from outside the closed system (as would be the issue in the violation of the Conservation of Energy), it is energy that exists already within the closed system.

If the system is the world or the Wheel, then no. The One Power drives the Wheel. The channeling isn't a part of the world until the channeling gets done. Then the energy from the One Power becomes a part of the world. If the channeler does not channel whatever weave, then that energy is not part of the world.

 

Heat can exist as vibrations in the matter, as photons and as waves. Dissipated heat is still energy. Whether it goes into outer space or somewhere else in the universe.

I don't disagree... but I'm not sure how that comment is relevent to anything I said.

It is relevant for how things work in the real world.

 

Exciting electrons takes energy. From the worlds perspective, it would be energy added to the created world. Unless we would think the One Power is part of the world, but I think we can safely say that it isn't part of the world.

Actually we know as a fact that it is. It's stated several times.

The One Power drives the Wheel. Do you have a quote that the energy that comes from the One Power is a part of the world? Because I don't believe it.

 

 

If it gets dissipated the normal way, then it is still energy. Energy that doesn't come from the created world. It was added to it. Where does the heat energy go? Out into space? If it just disappears completely out of existence, then maybe they have "borrowed" it from somewhere. Otherwise it is energy that has been added to the system. The entropy of the system seems to stay the same in the WoT universe. That's definitely not like in our world. I'd say that the One Power is a never ending energy supply that keeps turning the Wheel and maintaining the right conditions for life.

*blinks* *blinks again*.

 

There are sentences in that that make no sense at all. "Where does the heat energy go?" The same place heat always goes--into the myriad of biological and chemical reactions that occur in the natural world as a result of heat.

 

And by what basis do you say that the entropy stays the same? The decay of energy, and subsequent transmutation has never been quantified. Indeed, given the hints within the story that this world is our own I'd say thats incredibly unlikely. Honestly i don't know the basis of what your arguing--the One Power is a part of the world, the manipulation of which exists within the same closed system.

In the real world, heat energy would just continue out into space. No energy is lost from the universe. It just travels farther away (in the form of heat radiation).  The entropy of the real world increases all the time. But not in the WoT universe. What force drives this conservation of entropy? It is the One Power. Why does the sun not go nova in the WoT universe? It is the One Power. The One Power drives the Wheel, and I think the One Power comes from the Creator. Just like the True Power comes from the Dark One. Both the Creator and the Dark One are outside the world and outside the Wheel.

 

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

 

For every "transformation" from OP into more manifestly apparent forms, there is an equal but opposite "retransformation" back into OP.

 

OP is neither created nor destroyed, it is merely transformed.

 

Matter is potential energy.  Energy is potential matter.  OP is work waiting to be done.  Work is OP coming into existence.

 

The real difference to our reality is that the transformations are ( near ) instantaneous, immediate, and lossless.