Shadowspawn and Deathgates

[Dmitri]

What do you think, what's the reason for Trollocks to die when entering Gates?

 

Do we have any information other than this fact?

 

I always thought it has something to do with their origin - kind of flaw... But what it is - no idea.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It may be that their souls are less firmly "attached" to the Pattern, having been warped by the True Power, and so when they "disconnect" momentarily by passing through a gateway, they come completely "unattached" from their bodies.

 

I think it is that "looseness" in their souls that allow the Myrddraal to slip away through shadows and such as well.

 

This is all 100% pure speculation though; I don't think we've gotten an official explanation.

[Kaznen]

It may be that their souls are less firmly "attached" to the Pattern, having been warped by the True Power, and so when they "disconnect" momentarily by passing through a gateway, they come completely "unattached" from their bodies.

 

I think it is that "looseness" in their souls that allow the Myrddraal to slip away through shadows and such as well.

 

This is all 100% pure speculation though; I don't think we've gotten an official explanation.

I think Rand said something of the same thing in KoD.  Because shadowspawn are an unnatural abonination created with the OP they come undone, or something, when passing through a gateway.  I think a cutting from Avendosasa(?) and the Nym would also be come undone by a gateway.

[Roxinos]

Why would a cutting from the Tree of Life become undone by traveling?

[Kaznen]

The chora trees were most likely made using the OP.

[teky]

and the Nym would also be come undone by a gateway.

 

That is an interesting thought as Nym are, I think, constructs in a way, if only constructs for good not evil.  

 

About a cutting from Avendesora: I think, as far as we know Avendesora is simply another chora tree, all be it, the last remaining, and that a chora tree is just another tree, if but a very special species.  As long as that were true, it should pass though a gateway as harmlessly as any other flower would.

[Roxinos]

About a cutting from Avendesora: I think, as far as we know Avendesora is simply another chora tree, all be it, the last remaining, and that a chora tree is just another tree, if but a very special species.

 

Nope. The chora trees were constructs like the Nym, which was Kaznen's point.

 

However, it does not have a soul. Trollocs do not come apart when they travel, they just die. If RAW's speculation is right, then it is because the soul gets detached from the body as the soul has been manipulated by the True Power. The chora trees do not have souls.  Whether or not the Nym have souls is unknown, but unlikely.

[teky]

Nope. The chora trees were constructs like the Nym, which was Kaznen's point.

 

Ah, you are right.  My apologies, I'm new here and in my haste to make a post, I neglected to reference the white book.  Though, admittedly, I find some of the info in that book more dumbfounding than revealing.

 

To point, then they too could certainly be susceptible to the "gateway death". I wonder if it could be simply what ever force is used to animate the constructs (whether OP and/or TP and bred into, ex. shadowspawn) simply becomes unraveled in traversing though a gateway.

 

 

[Luckers]

I've always held it to be their nature as constructs.

[Mik]

This is just a theory of mine, but I think it has to do with the fact that the True Power was used during the creation of Trollocs.

 

True Power & One Power just. don't. mix. Ever. (see how the Taint and the True Source interact; they don't)

So when a Trolloc (and a Fade for that matter) are forced through a Gateway, part of what holds their essence together is snapped.

 

I don't think constructs that were created by using solely One Power are affected in any way.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=103930

 

 

[Thor]

no it makes no sense whatsoever, however you try to argue it.  you might be able to call the first trollocs constructs if you so wish, but the 2nd generation onwards are not.  they are biological beings that does not need the power to be sustained.  they are capable of reproducing themselves without any aid.  you cannot say they are artificial anymore.

 

i'd rather just wait for something official than to speculate at all.

[Mik]

no it makes no sense whatsoever, however you try to argue it.  you might be able to call the first trollocs constructs if you so wish, but the 2nd generation onwards are not.  they are biological beings that does not need the power to be sustained.  they are capable of reproducing themselves without any aid.  you cannot say they are artificial anymore.

You might not be able to make sense of it, but it does make sense to me.

 

Trollocs are living constructs that breed true. They were created using both the One Power and the so called True Power. Considering Myrddraal occasionally spawn as well, what's so hard to belief about Trollocs -regardless of generation- still spawn with True Power somehow holding their essence together?

 

After becoming Forsaken, he (Aginor) dedicated his energies to the creation of “Shadowspawn,” living constructs designed to serve the Shadow. His handiwork first appeared in the form of Trollocs, creatures made from combinations of human and animal substance. It is certain that the creation of Trollocs began well before the War of Power, because they appeared in large numbers in its very first days. Prolific breeders, the Trollocs formed the bulk of the Shadow’s armies by the end of the war.

 

.../ /...

 

Many of these creatures were created by the Forsaken Aginor, and others, from existing genetic material. They were designed to breed true whenever possible, since natural procreation was a more certain and less costly way to produce large populations than were laboratory vats.

 

i'd rather just wait for something official than to speculate at all.

I don't see the speculation part...

 

The Source lies at the heart of Creation. The Source is everywhere, even in a place like Shadar Logoth. The One Power is part of any and all beings. To some extend, some beings are also partly made up by the so called power of the Dark One. One being -say Myrddraal- more then others -say Trollocs-.

 

Here coms the speculation (even though I think it's a small leap);

When that connection to the True Power is severed, by forcing a being through a Gateway, that being 'dies' (or ceases to exist in it's current form. We can hardly say Myrddraal truly 'die', since they were Never born)

 

Cheers,

Mik

[Thor]

something that can breed cannot be called a construct.  the definition of a living organism is that a) it can respire and b) it can reproduce.

 

shadowspawns are not constructs, they are living organisms.

[Mik]

something that can breed cannot be called a construct.  the definition of a living organism is that a) it can respire and b) it can reproduce.

Yeah well. So you say.

If you had read that quote I provided you would have seen that RJ would disagree with you.

Your definition of what a living organism can or can't be falls short in more ways then one.

The most important way being that what is defined as a living being in WoT was up to RJ. Not you.

[Osan`gar]

This is just a theory of mine, but I think it has to do with the fact that the True Power was used during the creation of Trollocs.

 

True Power & One Power just. don't. mix. Ever. (see how the Taint and the True Source interact; they don't)

So when a Trolloc (and a Fade for that matter) are forced through a Gateway, part of what holds their essence together is snapped.

 

I don't think constructs that were created by using solely One Power are affected in any way.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=103930

 

 

 

my personal theory is a bit mor mundane but here it goes. we know through the conversation between rand and egwene that gateways are formed by either boring through the pattern with saidin or by warping the pattern with saidar. either way would require direct exposure to the pattern which is to all appearances the ultimate repository of all order in creation. the shadow spawn however are formed from the DO's true power the ulimate vessel of all chaos... is it possible that true order and true chaos cannot sustain any kind of direct contact in the manner of matter and anti matter? if this is so then the shadow spawns relatively miniscule amount of chaos, which is necessary to sustain their existence, would be inadequte to counter balance the massive power of the pattern. kind of like using a fire hose to snuff a candle. if they could somehow equalize the presure or balance between the two oposing forces then they could cohabitate and the gateway should at that point be safe for shadow spawn to use. but how could you pack enough chaos into one living being to counter all the order inherint in the pattern? just a theory but i like it :)

[ROB_88]

something that can breed cannot be called a construct.  the definition of a living organism is that a) it can respire and b) it can reproduce.

 

shadowspawns are not constructs, they are living organisms.

 

that's a pretty bad definition of living organisms.

i'll give an example from the tv-series Stargate SG1.

there are these machine-creatures called replicators, they are constructs but they can reproduce on theyre own.

 

are they living organisms because they reproduce by replication? no, they are not. therefore your definition is faulty

[Luckers]

Thor, a construct is something constructed. Nothing more. That they are both a living organisma and a construct is not something which is mutually exclusive, nor does the inclusion of the ability to self-replicate alter the fact that they were engineered.

[Thor]

which is why i said the first ones could be considered constructs, but all of those from 2nd generation onwards cannot be classified as constructs.

 

and no, the definition of living organism is quite exact.  and i'm pretty sure those machines don't respire.  wot is based on the real world, and for RJ to change the definition of a living organism would be against everything.  he might as well call the sky 'sea' and call the sea 'sky'.

 

for shadowspawn to be killed by gateways, it is simply impossible for it to be due to them being genetically engineered.  it has to do with perhaps them not really having a connection to the pattern or perhaps it is the intrisic taint of the dark one in them (which as someone said, could be the TP).

[Mik]

.

[Luckers]

which is why i said the first ones could be considered constructs, but all of those from 2nd generation onwards cannot be classified as constructs.

 

Yes, i saw that, thats why i made the point about self-replication. That they were designed to continue does not alter that they are designed. Ergo constructs.

 

and no, the definition of living organism is quite exact.  and i'm pretty sure those machines don't respire.  wot is based on the real world, and for RJ to change the definition of a living organism would be against everything.  he might as well call the sky 'sea' and call the sea 'sky'.

 

Firstly, do you realise 'respire' is not actually a word. Or an action. I would in fact be quite disturbed if a machine respired. Or, for that matter, a human.

 

As for the rest--RJ's already changed the definition of a living organism--threads in a wheel, recycled souls. The epistemological setup he's designed does not exist in the real world. Thats changing things. This is not the same as calling 'sea' 'sky'. Those two are defined realities. What is and is not a living organism is no. He's simply added to it.

 

for shadowspawn to be killed by gateways, it is simply impossible for it to be due to them being genetically engineered.  it has to do with perhaps them not really having a connection to the pattern or perhaps it is the intrisic taint of the dark one in them (which as someone said, could be the TP).

 

You do realise both of your options are results of them being constructs? As for the rest--what degree of education do you have? I presume something in physics, or even philosophy... stating impossibilities is a strong move. You need to back it up.

 

Also, how old are you?

[Alghar Khan]

I don't know about this... Isn't this a question of semantics. Regarding some made up creatures in a fantasy world. With no resembling stuff in the real world, and so on...

 

Isn't it possible to say that the trollocs as a group are living constructs, since they as a group were "constructed from parts"? And equally possible that individual, "now living" trollocs can be regarded as not being constructs, since they breed true (most of the time)? Can't each and every one pick their own definition, since this is just made up creatures in a story?

 

I don't know why they would die upon going through the deathgates. I guess it must be the One Power versus True Power interactions. Still just my guess.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Isn't it possible to say that the trollocs as a group are living constructs, since they as a group were "constructed from parts"? And equally possible that individual, "now living" trollocs can be regarded as not being constructs, since they breed true (most of the time)? Can't each and every one pick their own definition, since this is just made up creatures in a story?

 

Isn't this completely different from your view of language in the Did Verin Lie thread?  I seriously almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read this.

 

Yes, you could view it either way, Alghar.  But that wouldn't change the actual nature of the Trollocs, which is to say, that they are actually NOT the result of nature, and that their souls are still twisted by the use of the True Power, no matter how many generations of "natural" reproduction have occurred.

 

Firstly, do you realise 'respire' is not actually a word. Or an action. I would in fact be quite disturbed if a machine respired. Or, for that matter, a human.

 

Oh, and Luckers ... hate to say it, but, "respire" actually is a word.  It means "draw air into, and expel out of, the lungs", or alternatively, to "undergo the biomedical and metabolic processes of respiration by taking up oxygen and producing carbon monoxide". 

 

Essentially, it does mean "to breathe".  Thor's point was silly, but he did use the right word.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

This is just a theory of mine, but I think it has to do with the fact that the True Power was used during the creation of Trollocs.

 

True Power & One Power just. don't. mix. Ever. (see how the Taint and the True Source interact; they don't)

So when a Trolloc (and a Fade for that matter) are forced through a Gateway, part of what holds their essence together is snapped.

 

I don't think constructs that were created by using solely One Power are affected in any way.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=103930

 

 

 

my personal theory is a bit mor mundane but here it goes. we know through the conversation between rand and egwene that gateways are formed by either boring through the pattern with saidin or by warping the pattern with saidar. either way would require direct exposure to the pattern which is to all appearances the ultimate repository of all order in creation. the shadow spawn however are formed from the DO's true power the ulimate vessel of all chaos... is it possible that true order and true chaos cannot sustain any kind of direct contact in the manner of matter and anti matter? if this is so then the shadow spawns relatively miniscule amount of chaos, which is necessary to sustain their existence, would be inadequte to counter balance the massive power of the pattern. kind of like using a fire hose to snuff a candle. if they could somehow equalize the presure or balance between the two oposing forces then they could cohabitate and the gateway should at that point be safe for shadow spawn to use. but how could you pack enough chaos into one living being to counter all the order inherint in the pattern? just a theory but i like it :)

 

Not so sure about the true power-one power ani matter thing, because there is an example of Morridin using the TP to open a gateway, I remember something along the lines of "and the world seemed to scream as he ripped a whole in the pattern"(can't give you a quote, not near my books again :'(...  but it's right after Samael's meeting with Sevana), so if gateways come in direct contact with the pattern, and the true power can't touch it, that wouldn't have worked. 

 

Of course, by your argument, it could have simply been a balance of the pattern verses TP like you mentioned near the end, but who can really say?  And in that case, perhaps shodow spawn could pass through a TP gateway safely...

[Luckers]

Firstly, do you realise 'respire' is not actually a word. Or an action. I would in fact be quite disturbed if a machine respired. Or, for that matter, a human.

 

Oh, and Luckers ... hate to say it, but, "respire" actually is a word.  It means "draw air into, and expel out of, the lungs", or alternatively, to "undergo the biomedical and metabolic processes of respiration by taking up oxygen and producing carbon monoxide". 

 

Essentially, it does mean "to breathe".  Thor's point was silly, but he did use the right word.

 

Seriously? I googled it before i posted and got industrial warehouse responses. I just did so again and got the same result. Apparently respire is a german solvant company.

 

Australian Google, maybe? Though why it brings up german companies is somewhat disturbing.

 

Either way colour me red. I'm very sorry Thor, for all that i stand by my other comments.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Seriously? I googled it before i posted and got industrial warehouse responses. I just did so again and got the same result. Apparently respire is a german solvant company.

 

Australian Google, maybe? Though why it brings up german companies is somewhat disturbing.

 

Wow ... thats a pretty warped Australian Google ... here's a link if it helps, but yes, respire is definitely a verb for breathing, the root of the noun respiration, from the latin sprirare.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/respire